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Tadashi wrote:Then how can it affect Farsight's mind? Maybe it was something in psychic quarantine...

Why should it affect Farsight's mind at all? Why is it so difficult to believe that Farsight simply went renegade?
The Deathwatch rpg ( or to be more accurate, Mark of the Xenos ) fluff actualy describes pretty well what happens when a cardre of Tau Firewarriors loses their Etheral.
They more or less become overwhelmed by their barbaric instincts. They are agressive, prone to infighting and undisciplined.

The tau commander, Flamewing in this case, managed to overcome this state of mind but who says that Farsight was able to do the same?

KingDeath wrote: Why is it so difficult to believe that Farsight simply went renegade?

Tau fans claim that is impossible for Tau.

Not just the fans...even fluff says that Tau lose coherence and sense of purpose without guidance from an Ethereal. Let's say Farsight managed to avoid becoming 'overwhelmed'. If he's still in his right mind, first thing he would do would be to request a new Ethereal. But he didn't. He led his troops and civilian followers and dug themselves in and shut the Ethereals out. He doesn't even try to contact T'au at all. Something's up with him...

Brother Coa wrote:Tau fans claim that is impossible for Tau.

All your lies about tau fans get annoying. Can't you troll someone else for a change?

Tadashi wrote:Not just the fans...even fluff says that Tau lose coherence and sense of purpose without guidance from an Ethereal. Let's say Farsight managed to avoid becoming 'overwhelmed'. If he's still in his right mind, first thing he would do would be to request a new Ethereal. But he didn't. He led his troops and civilian followers and dug themselves in and shut the Ethereals out. He doesn't even try to contact T'au at all. Something's up with him...

Commander Farsight is one of the most aggressive Shas'o's ever tutored by Commander Pure Tide and passes the aggressiveness onto his basic troops, encouraging close ranged combat with marauding Orks as the Tau expanded. This left him embittered as he believed the other Shasos and even Ethereals didn't support him as well as they should have, and those underneath him felt the same.

When Farsight lost the Ethereals accompanying him, his aggressiveness intensified and he chased off after more Marauding Orks instead of overseeing the re-colonization process. Farsight established his Enclave to keep fighting the Orks, refusing from coming back to Tau because his aggression prevents him from doing so.

Tau Ethereals help curb the more prominent characteristics in the Tau. They helped Farsight control his overall aggression. When they died, Farsights aggression overwhelmed him and thus, Tau thinks he's not for the Greater Good but for his own Personal Gain.

He's not possessed. He's not harboring some Necron Tech. He's considered a Renegade by Tau and its Ethereals.

Kroothawk wrote:
All your lies about tau fans get annoying. Can't you troll someone else for a change?

My "lies":

- Tau Empire is smaller then the Imperium of Mankind. ( ~100 vs. ~1.000.000 ).
- Tau military, even highly advanced and well trained can't stand against full scales of all race's attacks ( Tyranids, Orks, Imperium, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons... ). While they can defeat smaller incursions on their own territory and closest systems.
- Tau are using the "Grater Good" to unify the galaxy. Often they are saying that they will "make you" embrace the Grater Good if you don't want to embrace it.
- There are hints that Etherials are using mind control ( Tau Codex 4'th edition ), but that's a rumor and until next codex I will leave it be. ( same as for sterilization in Ordo Xenos report ).
- Farsight indeed brake of the Tau Empire and established his own little empire in Democles Gulf. Is that first free Tau or is he under some influence - we won't know until next codex.

And I do believe that you have proven my lies yourself:

Kroothawk wrote:
"The Imperium of Man is much greater with a much bigger army. If, in theory, they could gather all their forces to crush Tau"
"Tau are a big fish in a small pont"

And seriously: your defense by naming everyone trolls, fanboys and every Tau related thread "genocidal" is becoming not boring but UBER-boring. Start answering normally or don't answer at all, thus it is you who are trolling us who are having normal discussion.

Then why's the Inquisition so concerned? It's not just the Ordo Xenos, it's the whole Inquisition.

Brother Coa wrote:Tau fans claim that is impossible for Tau.

Can you point to an example where Tau go renegade with an Etheral?

CpatTom wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Tau fans claim that is impossible for Tau.

Can you point to an example where Tau go renegade with an Etheral?

Only Farsight. Noone else has ever became one, because they are to loyal to Etherials.
Am I wroing?

Brother Coa wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Tau fans claim that is impossible for Tau.

Can you point to an example where Tau go renegade with an Etheral?

Only Farsight. Noone else has ever became one, because they are to loyal to Etherials.
Am I wroing?

Farsight lost his Aun before he went rouge.

No. All Tau go to pieces when an Ethereal dies. Both the fluff and the tabletop rules support this.

Brother Coa wrote:Only Farsight. Noone else has ever became one, because they are to loyal to Etherials.

No, you can't because it hasn't happened yet. Farsight didnt have Etherals, his died. Maybe in the future codex we will be given an opportunity to better understand the obedience to Etheral control (and even a disobedient faction), but as of right now, people say it is "impossible" (it is not "impossible", and that is misconstruing what has been said: It is that none has done it so far and) until they alter the fluff there is no evidence to support that it will occur.

An example: It is also not "impossible" for a Grey Knight to fall to Chaos; however, it is never going to happen, unless they alter the fluff in the future.

Tadashi wrote:No. All Tau go to pieces when an Ethereal dies. Both the fluff and the tabletop rules support this.

Not always. The taros campaign had there aun assassinated, but they didn't fall apart.

Tadashi wrote:No. All Tau go to pieces when an Ethereal dies. Both the fluff and the tabletop rules support this.

Farsight disagrees.

CpatTom wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Only Farsight. Noone else has ever became one, because they are to loyal to Etherials.

No, you can't because it hasn't happened yet. Farsight didnt have Etherals, his died. Maybe in the future codex we will be given an opportunity to better understand the obedience to Etheral control (and even a disobedient faction), but as of right now, people say it is "impossible" (it is not "impossible", and that is misconstruing what has been said: It is that none has done it so far and) until they alter the fluff there is no evidence to support that it will occur.

An example: It is also not "impossible" for a Grey Knight to fall to Chaos; however, it is never going to happen, unless they alter the fluff in the future.

You have just proven my point. Now tell that to the Tau fans.

Coa, there's no such thing as a normal discussion with you.

You think Lasguns are good.

They are.
There were numerous threads to prove this.
Aren't Elysians killed Battlesuits on Taros using Lascarbines?

And please Beef, we all know how "normal" you discussion are.

The Tau for now are still relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Their empire is growing, but not big enough to truely matter yet. At this stage, if the imperium bothered to truely send its entire military might against the Tau, it would be crushed utterly. But the imperium is too busy with tons of other things, so the Tau can still strive.

How would they fare if they had to fight a full fledged Tyranid hive fleet? No one knows. How would they fare if they had to face a full necron dynasty, no one knows either. They have only a few sectors and maybe close to one hundred planets. Its really small compared to the imperium.

Then again, look at Eldar. Eldar has been a "dying" race for tens of thousands of years, and their craftworlds are still drifting along. It seems we never run out of those things! hee.

CpatTom wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No. All Tau go to pieces when an Ethereal dies. Both the fluff and the tabletop rules support this.

Farsight disagrees.

All the more reason that he's being controlled or part of a third party.

Tadashi wrote:Then why's the Inquisition so concerned? It's not just the Ordo Xenos, it's the whole Inquisition.

Because Farsight is the shining example that killing Ethereals don't work. That even if the Imperium was to assassinate an Ethereal on the battlefield, the Tau aren't completely defenseless. And, to their horror, Tau fight harder when the recover from losing their Ethereal. THAT is what scares the Inquisition.

Brother Coa wrote:They are.
There were numerous threads to prove this.
Aren't Elysians killed Battlesuits on Taros using Lascarbines?

Not to my knowledge.

Eldenfirefly wrote:The Tau for now are still relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Their empire is growing, but not big enough to truely matter yet. At this stage, if the imperium bothered to truely send its entire military might against the Tau, it would be crushed utterly. But the imperium is too busy with tons of other things, so the Tau can still strive.

How would they fare if they had to fight a full fledged Tyranid hive fleet? No one knows. How would they fare if they had to face a full necron dynasty, no one knows either. They have only a few sectors and maybe close to one hundred planets. Its really small compared to the imperium.

Then again, look at Eldar. Eldar has been a "dying" race for tens of thousands of years, and their craftworlds are still drifting along. It seems we never run out of those things! hee.

If a full Hive Fleet (Behemoth, etc.) attacked the Tau they'd end up like Craftworld Iyanden. And the Necrons (at least based on the new Codex) have no reason to attack the Tau. And the Tau will reach the limit of their warp drive very soon. It takes them a week to traverse their Empire, a distance the Imperium could do in days (usually) or hours (rarely), and the Eldar in an instant. And Aspect Warriors = Space Marines, Aspect Warriors > Fire Caste.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Then why's the Inquisition so concerned? It's not just the Ordo Xenos, it's the whole Inquisition.

Because Farsight is the shining example that killing Ethereals don't work. That even if the Imperium was to assassinate an Ethereal on the battlefield, the Tau aren't completely defenseless. And, to their horror, Tau fight harder when the recover from losing their Ethereal. THAT is what scares the Inquisition.

Then why is the Ordo Malleus also concerned? Those guys go after daemons and chaos worshippers, not aliens, remember?

KplKeegan wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:They are.
There were numerous threads to prove this.
Aren't Elysians killed Battlesuits on Taros using Lascarbines?

Not to my knowledge.

Tau shoot down 2'nd wave of troops, that wave also had heavy equipment that was also shot down. So it is logical that most of Elysians had Lascarbines and that they possessed few heavy weapons ( but that is also in question since they had nothing to counteract Hammerheads ). But IA say that Tau suffered great casualties in both Battlesuits and Fire Warriors before they were able to defeat them. ( They had to use Manta in the end to defeat them )

I think Necrons have lots of reason to attack the Tau. If Imotehk expand his empire far enough, and finds that some of the Tau planets are coreworlds or tomb worlds, then he will surely attack them. I doubt if Necrons care at all about the Greater Good!

Obviously. The new Necrons might tolerate other races, as long as they swear loyalty to the Necrons. One of the reasons the Silent King came back and woke the Necrons up was to restore Necrontyr dominance (apart from stopping the Tyranids).

I frankly doubt if the Tau would be willing to swear loyalty to the necrons though.

Tadashi wrote:Then why is the Ordo Malleus also concerned? Those guys go after daemons and chaos worshippers, not aliens, remember?

Where Farsight built his Enclave. It is a place the Tau consider 'forbidden' and gives them great concern that there's something buried around those worlds Daemon related. They're afraid of the Tau releasing something and having that something make a bee-line straight for Imperial Space, which is likely because Humans are a better food source than Tau.

Brother Coa wrote:So it is logical that most of Elysians had Lascarbines and that they possessed few heavy weapons ( but that is also in question since they had nothing to counteract Hammerheads ). But IA say that Tau suffered great casualties in both Battlesuits and Fire Warriors before they were able to defeat them. ( They had to use Manta in the end to defeat them )

They also had Valkyries. But because Battlesuits may have fallen does not mean they were all caused by carbines. I mean, you shoot a hundred rifles at a barn and something should hit it. And no, they didn't use a Manta to defeat them. They used the Manta to deliver the Shas'o to collect his prisoners.

But the Tau can't sense psychic auras. So why would they consider it forbidden, apart from being too close to the Imperial border? Something's up with Farsight, something that concerns not just the Holy Inquisition, but even the Tau Empire.

Brother Coa wrote:They are.
There were numerous threads to prove this.
Aren't Elysians killed Battlesuits on Taros using Lascarbines?

And please Beef, we all know how "normal" you discussion are.

TT rules: a str 3 lascarbine (lasgun) vs. a T 4 battlesuit needs 5+ to wound, then the suits 3+ sav is inacted, and requires 2 succesful wounds..

So yes they can and likely did kill/disable battlesuits, just the odds would not be great for it, and require a substantial number of shots, or two very lucky ones.

And yes TT does not always reflect fluff but Forgeworld /IA seems to strive to have its match up.

And although the Tau are not a player on the galactic stage, they are a regional power in their neck of the woods, we are all aware of that, so IoM fans (since thats the going term for people it seems now in this thread) can rest in their galactic size and grandure and leave off the incessent sabre rattling.

And yes the fluff supports the loss of a ethereal does not cripple the Tau permanetly just for a span of greif and consolidation, and then its bussiness as usual , but without the potential so much of diplomacy.

The Tau specifically considered it forbidden because of the Imperial border. The Ethereals wanted a primarily diplomatic expansion in that area, not a military one because the Water Caste has proven very effective at splitting off Imperial worlds and they didn't want to trigger a massive Imperium response.


In regards to the Tau without an Ethereal, Codex: Tau Empire is quite clear on the reasons for and the results of the death of an Ethereal on the Tau.

To the Tau Ethereals are their saviours from a period of time in which their people were beset by self-destructive civil war. This period, which the Tau refer to as the Time of Terror, still leaves scars on the psyche of modern Tau. Many modern Tau believe that without the Ethereals kindness, they will descend into barbarism.

In the case of the Fire Caste, there are to main forms of reaction to the death of an Ethereal. The first features the Fire Caste warriors giving into their despair and fleeing the field in confusion. Such an incident is outlined in Codex: Imperial Guard. The second has the Fire Caste respond aggressively, pouring fire into the enemy as they move forward. Shas'o R'myr's reaction on Taros is of the latter category.

On the table top the difference between which reaction occurs is a Leadership Test.


When we come to the case of Farsight, we have two factors to remember. First he is a highly aggressive commander, so he already has aggressive tendencies. Second, he was at odds with the Ethereals over a number of policy decisions that resulted in a large number of his troops dying needlessly and the censuring of one of his favoured students. So Farsight, at the time his Ethereals died, was already an aggressive, independently minded Tau who probably thought he was better off without Etherels around. A very unique situation and one that could easily explain him turnign his back on the Empire.

But hey, if you want to get to the tabletop about it. He has a Leardership of 10 and is so driven that he makes his entire army Bonded by default. He simply made his check and got on with his life.

KplKeegan wrote:
They also had Valkyries. But because Battlesuits may have fallen does not mean they were all caused by carbines. I mean, you shoot a hundred rifles at a barn and something should hit it. And no, they didn't use a Manta to defeat them. They used the Manta to deliver the Shas'o to collect his prisoners.

The text clearly states that Tau Manta fire all it's weapons at refinery. After the volley the Tau stormed the compound. That counts as "using Manta to defeat somebody". And I am referring to losses that Tau suffered while fighting in the compound. Elysians didn't use airstrikes there, there were only Guardsman vs. Battlesuits and Fire Warriors and still they manage to inflict heavy losses to Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:They are.
There were numerous threads to prove this.
Aren't Elysians killed Battlesuits on Taros using Lascarbines?

And please Beef, we all know how "normal" you discussion are.

TT rules: a str 3 lascarbine (lasgun) vs. a T 4 battlesuit needs 5+ to wound, then the suits 3+ sav is inacted, and requires 2 succesful wounds..

So yes they can and likely did kill/disable battlesuits, just the odds would not be great for it, and require a substantial number of shots, or two very lucky ones.

And yes TT does not always reflect fluff but Forgeworld /IA seems to strive to have its match up.

IA and TT rules are the same thing, except fluff.
Please don't use TT rules to show how something should work in fluff ( because all those rules exist to BALANCE the things, completely different then fluff ). If we all compare TT rules and fluff then Space Marine would worth 3 Guardsman, not 100.
This also show's how much Tau fans know about Imperial fluff.