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What insult is there? It's giving a hint at the thread's topic.

If the title had been, 'Does anyone else thing nonpainters are a bunch of whiny, lazy, self-entitled gits?', then that's an insult.

If any of that had been in the OP, then that's an insult.

None of it was, though. The OP was asking, simply, why he saw so few painted armies. In fact, the post originally used Warmachine/Hordes players as the main culprit!

It's like you're one of those stereotypical Facebook screencaptures - you know, the ones where someone makes a status update, and some girl freaks out, thinking it's about her? And then everyone else has a laugh at here expense.

helium42 wrote:

infinite_array wrote:Also, I noticed you ignored my request.

Of course I ignored your request. I chose not to engage in your straw man argument. But if you insist, here we go. Without looking, I know I won't find any pictures in the GW rulebook depicting unpainted miniatures on the table. My answer to that is that GW is in the business of selling paint, flock, hobby tools, and other bits to jazz up your models. That has nothing to do with some all-encompassing expectation of what the game should be or how it should be played though.

What strawman? You attempted to say that, thanks to the omission of any sort of 'rule' that you needed to paint your models, you didn't have to.

Here, let me quote a few other rulebooks that I own:

Black Powder: 'However, it must be said that the majority of players prefer to paint their own models, and most enjoy doing so - for there is undeniably something satisfying about completing each new regiment and adding it to the growing army'. And look, no pictures of unpainted miniatures! And no 'corporate speech' to try and get you to buy the nonexistent Warlord Games Hobby range.

Field of Glory: 'Today wargaming is an absorbing and fascinating pastime involving elements of tactical skill and chance, where armird of accurately researched and painted figurines march across realistically modeled battlefield to re-fight bygone wars'. And look, a section in the back that talks about painting, and mentions a variety of different paint brands.

Battles in the Age of War: 'Time spent painting and modelling is time well spent'. And, hey, a section in the book on painting, and some suggested reading material to see what Samurai and other Japanese military units would have looked like in the Sengoku period!

Battletech: Total Warfare: 'Hopefully, this section offers you enough guidance to paint some cool miniatures. However, you don't need to rely on this information alone. Ask other painters how they like to paint their miniatures, Ask the people at your local hobby shop how they do it. Most people will be happy to talk about their hobby.

Cold War Commander: 'Some people love it, some hate it. I find painting to be a necessary evil, but once I'm immersed in painting-up a load of minis, I quite enjoy it. However the best bit for me is seeing them finished and on the table!'

Flames of War: 'Painting is an integral part of the wargaming hobby. Most wargamers hate to play with unpainted miniatures - and for good reason; the visual tactile nature of well painted models and terrain is what separates tabletop wargaming from other, less fun creative pastimes.'

helium42 wrote:

Stoupe wrote:Honestly I see it the other way around CT. Yes some gak created the post but for every 1 painter complaining about it, there's 5 non painters offended. Most painters who like me are just saying "I won't play them". It's our choice. I can have it. I'm not complaining about the number of games I have to play or the difficulty in which it is to just get a game.

The fact of the matter is, if your complaining about the number of games your getting is too low, then maybe your standards is too high. I was getting too many games. Too many of them were unsatisfactory. So I raised my standards, which includes only playing half painted or better armies.

If that's elitist, then I'm an elitist.

The non-painters are not complaining about somebody saying that they choose not to play against them, but are rather complaining at the assertion that we are lazy/childish/self-entitled/etc. When you bring out insults like that, you should expect a large and intense response. Had the OP came out and asked why non-painters don't paint, or said he doesn't understand our point of view I seriously doubt that the response would have been so angry. But instead insults were thrown early and often. Condescending people offered tips on how to quickly paint an army, and others claimed that their hobby was being ruined by the self-entitled non-painters.

Tournaments, clubs, and individuals should all feel free to restrict or open up play as they see fit. Anyone feeling excluded, or feeling unsatisfied by their group can find other like-minded opponents. We're lucky in a sense that 40k is such a large hobby, it means that we don't really have to settle playing against people who share a different vision of how to enjoy the game than we do. There are plenty of players out there.

infinite_array wrote:Also, I noticed you ignored my request.

Of course I ignored your request. I chose not to engage in your straw man argument. But if you insist, here we go. Without looking, I know I won't find any pictures in the GW rulebook depicting unpainted miniatures on the table. My answer to that is that GW is in the business of selling paint, flock, hobby tools, and other bits to jazz up your models. That has nothing to do with some all-encompassing expectation of what the game should be or how it should be played though.

The thread title could have said "What are the reasons people don't paint?" or "Can people explain to me why they use unpainted models?" Instead the thread title is loaded in it's assumption that people who use unpainted models are "making no attempt" hence the reason must be some sort of character flaw (laziness, entitlement, etc.). And this smell of blood in the water was all the paint-snobs needed to start frenzying as documented in the various posts.

I know a guy that has very poor eyesight do to a medical condition. He can make out general shapes but has to pick up dice close to his face to read them, etc. His ability to do detailed work on small objects like miniatures is near immpossible so he does not paint his models.

I have witnessed people who are unaware of his conditiondropping comments like those spouted in this thread at him or behind his back all the while snickering and thinking they are clever. His response is usually "well I'm practically blind so F*ck you". Point being: making assumptons about people's motivations for doing/not doing something is a bad habit and makes you look like a moron more often than not...

infinite_array wrote:There is, however, an entire section devoted to painting miniatures. In fact, you'll find such a section in most mainstream miniatures rulebooks.

Now I'm required to have the big rule book to play? Since you're obviously not aware, the book from the AoBR set doesn't include that section. None of the small set books ever have.

It's almost like different people ply 40k for different reasons. Odd that.

Kaldor wrote:
Not sure if trolling...

No, your reading comprehension leaves a little to be desired. Not painting is fine. Refusing to play against not painted armies is fine.

Getting upset because someone doesn't like your unpainted army is not fine.
.

Except people aren't saying that now are they? And my reading comprehension is fine..... I guess I am just trolling at this point

Stoupe wrote:Honestly I see it the other way around CT. Yes some gak created the post but for every 1 painter complaining about it, there's 5 non painters offended. Most painters who like me are just saying "I won't play them". It's our choice. I can have it. I'm not complaining about the number of games I have to play or the difficulty in which it is to just get a game.

The fact of the matter is, if your complaining about the number of games your getting is too low, then maybe your standards is too high. I was getting too many games. Too many of them were unsatisfactory. So I raised my standards, which includes only playing half painted or better armies.

If that's elitist, then I'm an elitist.

Its not non painters. I am willing to bet you that the majority of us who take offense to the kind of elitist painter attitude brought up here are painters. Heres the armies I have played in the last 10 and a half years.
Vanilla marines
Biel tan
deathwing
Tyranids
Imperial Guard
Iron warriors
13th company
Pre heresy Imperial fists
Pre heresy death guard
mech eldar
draigowing
coteaz mech grey knights
flesh tearers
tyranids again
foot space wolves.

Every single one of those armies has been painted to at least 3 colors. The earlier ones were painted very poorly, as I was 11 when I started painting. The later ones have been done fairly well. Thats something like 50k points of minis I have owned and painted, not including commission work and just general helping other people paint their armies. I can agree painted armies look better. I can agree that I would rather see 2 really well painted armies fighting it out on nice terrain than 2 grey legions fighting. I can also realize that if somebody else doesnt want to paint its not my business. Im a man, I have more important things that concern me than how somebody elses mandollies look.

If you are approached by somebody else for a game, and they dont have a painted army, and you turn them down for this reason, youre an donkey-cave

Let me show you the kind of people who get offended by these posts.

This isnt non painters being outed as lazy turds who only want to play the latest power army before ebaying it because we cant win. This isnt people smoking too much weed to paint, and then making excuses for it. I go to tournaments based around battlepoints and I place top 3 in them. I go to hobby based events where painting is more than 50% of your score? I place top 3 in them. The tournaments where I havent won best general/painted, I tend to get best sportsman at. I meet new kids who want to get involved in the game? I break out 500 pts of tyranids and play goofy games to show them how the rules work while losing. I give people models with my tournament winnings. I am captaining a team to go to the ATC this July, and am the youngest member by about 10 years.

Im not offended as a lazy non painter who just cant be bothered to care about this hobby. I am offended as an 11 year veteran who grew up in this hobby, as someone who knows the fluff inside and out, can paint and model well, and is a very competitive player. I am offended as someone who wonders why less people play this game, and then I see people talk about how they wont play against unpainted armies because it offends their sensibilities. Its not an issue for me of personal painting choice, its going after elitist attitudes, which drag down such a small hobby and turn it into the stereotypical neckbeard circle jerk. I am offended as someone who, in addition to having a fantastic social life that has nothing to do with gaming or nerdiness, probably paints and plays better than you, and knows the fluff more as well. At which point do you stop with the elitism?

Should I view myself as some kind of gaming ubermensch? Should I refuse to play people who dont have good background knowledge, as well as multiple tournament wins and a really well painted army? Sounds far, i put in the effort to learn the game and get good at it. I put in the effort to highlight and shade the hell out of my models, and I put in the effort to read the fluff. Dont tell me you dont have time, thats just an excuse, make time. You see how fething stupid this kind of attitude of 'im better than you at mandollies' is?

infinite_something or other wrote:What insult is there? It's giving a hint at the thread's topic.

If the title had been, 'Does anyone else thing nonpainters are a bunch of whiny, lazy, self-entitled gits?', then that's an insult.

If any of that had been in the OP, then that's an insult.

None of it was, though. The OP was asking, simply, why he saw so few painted armies. In fact, the post originally used Warmachine/Hordes players as the main culprit!

The OP edited the offensive remarks out of the post.

same troll as above wrote:It's like you're one of those stereotypical Facebook screencaptures - you know, the ones where someone makes a status update, and some girl freaks out, thinking it's about her? And then everyone else has a laugh at here expense.

Troll harder troll.

So, instead of actually countering anything I say... you just call me a troll.

OP edits his post? Good, then he saw what he said was offensive, and changed it to be less so.

I'm ashamed to see that we're the same age.

Eidolon wrote:

Stoupe wrote:
Im not offended as a lazy non painter who just cant be bothered to care about this hobby. I am offended as an 11 year veteran who grew up in this hobby, as someone who knows the fluff inside and out, can paint and model well, and is a very competitive player. I am offended as someone who wonders why less people play this game, and then I see people talk about how they wont play against unpainted armies because it offends their sensibilities. Its not an issue for me of personal painting choice, its going after elitist attitudes, which drag down such a small hobby and turn it into the stereotypical neckbeard circle jerk. I am offended as someone who, in addition to having a fantastic social life that has nothing to do with gaming or nerdiness, probably paints and plays better than you, and knows the fluff more as well. At which point do you stop with the elitism?

Should I view myself as some kind of gaming ubermensch? Should I refuse to play people who dont have good background knowledge, as well as multiple tournament wins and a really well painted army? Sounds far, i put in the effort to learn the game and get good at it. I put in the effort to highlight and shade the hell out of my models, and I put in the effort to read the fluff. Dont tell me you dont have time, thats just an excuse, make time. You see how fething stupid this kind of attitude of 'im better than you at mandollies' is?

this guy gets it...

as someone who just started 40k 2 months ago and at the moment i'm staring at 3000 points of unpainted blood Angels and about 600 points of unpainted Tau. i can only tolerate painting for about 2-3 hours a day and i'm really slow. i'd also rather have a "field of gray" than horribly painted minis that look like they were painted by stephen hawking.

if someone refused me a game because my minis weren't painted i would laugh at them for pulling such an elitist forever alone move on me. nerds that do this are no better than the jocks and bullies that used to give them gak in middle school.

phoenixrisin wrote:

Eidolon wrote:
Im not offended as a lazy non painter who just cant be bothered to care about this hobby. I am offended as an 11 year veteran who grew up in this hobby, as someone who knows the fluff inside and out, can paint and model well, and is a very competitive player. I am offended as someone who wonders why less people play this game, and then I see people talk about how they wont play against unpainted armies because it offends their sensibilities. Its not an issue for me of personal painting choice, its going after elitist attitudes, which drag down such a small hobby and turn it into the stereotypical neckbeard circle jerk. I am offended as someone who, in addition to having a fantastic social life that has nothing to do with gaming or nerdiness, probably paints and plays better than you, and knows the fluff more as well. At which point do you stop with the elitism?

Should I view myself as some kind of gaming ubermensch? Should I refuse to play people who dont have good background knowledge, as well as multiple tournament wins and a really well painted army? Sounds far, i put in the effort to learn the game and get good at it. I put in the effort to highlight and shade the hell out of my models, and I put in the effort to read the fluff. Dont tell me you dont have time, thats just an excuse, make time. You see how fething stupid this kind of attitude of 'im better than you at mandollies' is?

this guy gets it...

as someone who just started 40k 2 months ago and at the moment i'm staring at 3000 points of unpainted blood Angels and about 600 points of unpainted Tau. i can only tolerate painting for about 2-3 hours a day and i'm really slow. i'd also rather have a "field of gray" than horribly painted minis that look like they were painted by stephen hawking.

if someone refused me a game because my minis weren't painted i would laugh at them for pulling such an elitist forever alone move on me. nerds that do this are no better than the jocks and bullies that used to give them gak in middle school.

This needs to be considered too. When I started my draigowing I didnt know what colors to paint them for about 3 months, so they remained grey. Are you going to assume someone is lazy because they want to wait and be sure about what colors to put on their models?

victor.IG wrote:i personally cant stand people who dont paint or make an effort to paint their armies it ruins the game for me i enjoy playing with a painted force against a painted force personally or someone whos in the process of painting is fine so long as each time we play together something else has been completed not the same grey stuff every week

I personally can't stand reading threads where people have no concept of capitalization or punctuation. It ruins my enjoyment of reading message boards when I have to attempt to decipher the unintelligible ramblings of someone who apparently hasn't mastered 9th grade English grammar. I don't mind as much if the people seem to demonstrate a gradual improvement in their ability to use Standard Written English, so long as each time I see a post by them, their grammatical errors have lessened.

Turn about is fair play.

Eidolon wrote:
Im not offended as a lazy non painter who just cant be bothered to care about this hobby. I am offended as an 11 year veteran who grew up in this hobby, as someone who knows the fluff inside and out, can paint and model well, and is a very competitive player. I am offended as someone who wonders why less people play this game, and then I see people talk about how they wont play against unpainted armies because it offends their sensibilities. Its not an issue for me of personal painting choice, its going after elitist attitudes, which drag down such a small hobby and turn it into the stereotypical neckbeard circle jerk. I am offended as someone who, in addition to having a fantastic social life that has nothing to do with gaming or nerdiness, probably paints and plays better than you, and knows the fluff more as well. At which point do you stop with the elitism?

Should I view myself as some kind of gaming ubermensch? Should I refuse to play people who dont have good background knowledge, as well as multiple tournament wins and a really well painted army? Sounds far, i put in the effort to learn the game and get good at it. I put in the effort to highlight and shade the hell out of my models, and I put in the effort to read the fluff. Dont tell me you dont have time, thats just an excuse, make time. You see how fething stupid this kind of attitude of 'im better than you at mandollies' is?

It's not about small skirmishes. It's not about playing people I know to enjoy. It's about the random person who comes up to me and asks to play. I have to make a quick 20 second assessment to decide if he is worth taking the 30 min to take my horde of empire out of the box. Play for 90 min then put them away for the next 30 min. If I don't know you, and you are not painted, your extremely unlikely to be worthwhile. Now tourneys are another story as I don't have the hour downtime that a casual game may or may not cause due to magnetization. This can make me a douche. I don't care. I'm perfectly happy sitting at the paintbar working on those 10 models I front of me while having a conversation with people around me.

this guy gets it...

as someone who just started 40k 2 months ago and at the moment i'm staring at 3000 points of unpainted blood Angels and about 600 points of unpainted Tau. i can only tolerate painting for about 2-3 hours a day and i'm really slow. i'd also rather have a "field of gray" than horribly painted minis that look like they were painted by stephen hawking.

if someone refused me a game because my minis weren't painted i would laugh at them for pulling such an elitist forever alone move on me. nerds that do this are no better than the jocks and bullies that used to give them gak in middle school.

See above. I don't refuse because I'm trying to bully you. I really don't care if your painted or unpainted. Enjoy your hobby. I'll enjoy mine. Just don't expect me to play you casually. Who knows we could play in a tourney and I like you so we may be able to play casually after. But that random I don't know with a grey army is not worth the hour of work to get my horde armies out of my car and on the table.

This needs to be considered too. When I started my draigowing I didnt know what colors to paint them for about 3 months, so they remained grey. Are you going to assume someone is lazy because they want to wait and be sure about what colors to put on their models?

Then don't be offended when I wait 3 months to play your draigowing.

Eidolon wrote: neckbeard circle jerk.

ohhhhhhh..... thats never good

Saldiven wrote:

victor.IG wrote:i personally cant stand people who dont paint or make an effort to paint their armies it ruins the game for me i enjoy playing with a painted force against a painted force personally or someone whos in the process of painting is fine so long as each time we play together something else has been completed not the same grey stuff every week

I personally can't stand reading threads where people have no concept of capitalization or punctuation. It ruins my enjoyment of reading message boards when I have to attempt to decipher the unintelligible ramblings of someone who apparently hasn't mastered 9th grade English grammar. I don't mind as much if the people seem to demonstrate a gradual improvement in their ability to use Standard Written English, so long as each time I see a post by them, their grammatical errors have lessened.

Turn about is fair play.

Just adding and agreeing with this quote.

While complaining about putting up with people with unpainted models in 'THEIR' hobby. some come on an open forum and do not realise what they have just put others through by not having very good punctuation and grammar(When i say 'put others through', its in the same sense as they have to look at unpainted models). Its all swings and roundabouts, many could ignore post, slate them for 'not putting the effort in'. Some would say its quicker to type a message correctly then to paint a model.....


Anyhoo I think i got my point across (and I know I am not the best with spelling and grammar either, before you point out my mistakes).



Edit: Also I am quite new to this (about 1 year), but if I were to read how people are turning their noses up at people(when thinking about getting into the hobby) and think they are better then others because of some painted mini's. I would probably laugh and go find some other hobby up. Now if I am thinking this, and I have had some before, imagine the amount of people who will be put off by this. Its not exactly the most popular hobby, hence why the prices are so expensive.... Its only going to go more downhill when topics like these arise.

Stoupe wrote:

This needs to be considered too. When I started my draigowing I didnt know what colors to paint them for about 3 months, so they remained grey. Are you going to assume someone is lazy because they want to wait and be sure about what colors to put on their models?

Then don't be offended when I wait 3 months to play your draigowing.

Then don't be offended if I choose not to play you until you have a half dozen tournament wins or so. I don't care how well painted an army is if the competition is lacking.

See how silly this attitude can become?

Saldiven wrote:

Stoupe wrote:

This needs to be considered too. When I started my draigowing I didnt know what colors to paint them for about 3 months, so they remained grey. Are you going to assume someone is lazy because they want to wait and be sure about what colors to put on their models?

Then don't be offended when I wait 3 months to play your draigowing.

Then don't be offended if I choose not to play you until you have a half dozen tournament wins or so. I don't care how well painted an army is if the competition is lacking.

See how silly this attitude can become?

That's fine. You can do that all you want.

Your only limiting yourself by doing that. Just like I'm limiting myself. I recognize this and embrace this. I don't see a problem with it as I'm not complaining about not getting games.

Again to have high expectations for your opponents and then complain about not getting enough is stupid. I was getting too many game offers. So I became more picky. This lowered my quantity of games but increased my quality (IMO). And I'm fine. I'm not the one crying.

I'm curious to know what a neckbeard circle jerk is

Despite the accusations that I am a Nazi, and threats of violence levelled against me, I shall reply to this ongoing debate.

People who say they don't have the time to paint = BS
People who say they don't paint because their time is their own and they choose not to etc = respect
People who can't paint because of disability = no problem there.

I'm with infinite and pacific on this one. You have to put something into this hobby in order to make it unique otherwise why bother? It's that distinction that seperates this great hobby from other activities. I'll repeat for the record that I would never judge somebody on their painting ability. If somebody gives it a go. But IMO, the more you put into mini wargaming, the more you get out of it. That's why I encourage (not force) people to pick up a brush. If you don't want to paint, that is your right.
Anyway, let's keep this thread civil. We're all here because we love the hobby.

infinite_array wrote:So, instead of actually countering anything I say... you just call me a troll.

How do I counter a statement such as this one below?

It's like you're one of those stereotypical Facebook screencaptures - you know, the ones where someone makes a status update, and some girl freaks out, thinking it's about her? And then everyone else has a laugh at here expense.

There is no counter to being trolled other than to call out the troll.

same troll wrote:OP edits his post? Good, then he saw what he said was offensive, and changed it to be less so.

I'm glad the OP edited his post as well. But that doesn't invalidate what was said and repeated time and time again throughout this thread.

same guy again wrote:I'm ashamed to see that we're the same age.

What bearing does that have on this discussion? You already have resorted to trolling me and others because your arguments broke down a long time ago. And you continue doing the same with your inane quips and insults.

the OP, and thanks for starting this grand thread wrote:I'm with infinite and pacific on this one. You have to put something into this hobby in order to make it unique otherwise why bother? It's that distinction that seperates this great hobby from other activities.

Stoupe wrote:
Then don't be offended when I wait 3 months to play your draigowing.

I'm pretty sure Eidolon won't be offended. He seems to be a pretty level headed guy. I have a feeling you'd be offended though.

whitedragon wrote:

Stoupe wrote:
Then don't be offended when I wait 3 months to play your draigowing.

I'm pretty sure Eidolon won't be offended. He seems to be a pretty level headed guy. I have a feeling you'd be offended though.

You'd be wrong.

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