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swordbrotherjim wrote:Paint them. Its part of the hobby.

Part of your hobby, not everyones.
Its like if you go to watch a sport, where singing/chanting is common, some people don't want to do that. Some people who do always sing moan about those who do not, its not written on your ticket, 'You must join in with every chant', like its not written on the box when you buy figures 'you must paint'.

You can't force people to do something they don't want or have time for. Of course there are tournaments that require painting and/or reward it, so people who don't like painting miss out fairly, people who just don't have the time miss out a bit unfairly. I can enjoy painting, but don't have anywhere in my house (home with family, while at Uni i've got space) where I can leave painting stuff out, my desk is too small, and the only table we have is in dining room and regularly used, with two little kids around I can't leave stuff out. I'm going to try and work around that, by getting a tray to keep things on, and put that out of reach to lessen the time spent getting things out and putting away (which may not sound like a hard task, but getting things out of boxes, moving them, setting everything up, knowing i'm going to have to put it away when I may want to watch TV or go out or something is just an extra 'effort' that often puts me off).

It would be lovely if every army was painted brilliantly. But thats not the case, personally i'd rather see grey/primed armies than something painted really quickly just so it was painted, or someone wasting £100s on someone painting their army for them.

Wargaming has many elements. The models, which again has different elements (painting, converting, just the general look can draw people to them), the social aspect (pretty much playing with friends/in a group just because you want to be social), the tactical side, the winning side. Probably some more. Its YOUR hobby, ok you share it with others, but do people get upset with others who paint and don't play? Thats exactly the same as playing and not painting, but I don't think i've ever seen anyone moan about that.

I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

And those of us who are physically incapable of painting from nerve damage?

Jeez, you are gonna break your back patting yourself on the back like that.

curran12 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

And those of us who are physically incapable of painting from nerve damage?

Jeez, you are gonna break your back patting yourself on the back like that.

Hope he doesn't break his arm and suffer that same sort of nerve damage coming down off his high horse.

I for one would rather have an army that is painted (even if not brilliantly) than a wall of grey plastic. i find painting rather enjoyable especialy when in a store having a conversation. i am not an amazing painter (i would say that my armies are on the lower end tabletop standard but still way better than some of the other local offerings). ive only been playing for just about a year now and i see it as a realy important factor to me using models is if i have painted them or not. i like to keep my armies tabletop standard and dont often convert my models.

I find it simply apauling when people field all grey or basecoated and often refuse to play against them unless there new models that they want to test run. many people in my local are share this opinion as they always try to get armies painted before they play them or work on painting between games. needless to say i have alot of models still unpainted but atleast i have plans to paint them and want to see my army painted on the field but time does not allow me to do so and i simply dont play those models.

I know some people who have literaly never got beyond a spray coat when painting and are constantly playing. they could take time off from playing to paint there models respectably so that they are worthy of facing the battlefield. the amount of "Sprue Grey" chapters on battle fields is just too damn high and should be stopped.

I have several friends, myself included, that simply do not enjoy painting. Often times we end up getting together, and getting drunk over about 2 nights while watching movies to paint them. This leads to some awful paint jobs, like my friends guard army which is painted in cheap craft glitter paints over white primer, or my pink blue and green grey knight army. I am a college student. A great deal of my time is spent sitting on the computer reading information. The last thing I want to do for fun is sit and apply paint to models, it just feels like a chore. Most of my armies are the bare minimum 3 colors, I think the shortest time I ever spent on one was 3 hours for a 50 model foot space wolf army.

On the other hand, I have a flesh tearers army that I painted over a winter where I had a lot of free time. While I think it looks beautiful, the red alone was 10 coats of paint, including highlights and washes. I could never spend that much time again working on an army. I can paint with the top 10%-5% of painters out there, but most of the time I dont care enough.

While I think we can all agree that nonpainted looks worse than painted armies, theres a very good chance the people who run constant grey armies just dont enjoy painting. There is no reason that an unpainted army should actually bother someone to look at, and people shouldnt have to waste their time on activities they find boring for others enjoyment.

Eidolon, at least you made the effort to paint them. It's not about having the prettiest army, but anything's better than not trying.

KillerSkivil wrote:

I know some people who have literaly never got beyond a spray coat when painting and are constantly playing. they could take time off from playing to paint there models respectably so that they are worthy of facing the battlefield. the amount of "Sprue Grey" chapters on battle fields is just too damn high and should be stopped.

You there! Stop doing the part of the hobby that you enjoy and get the most out of! How dare you not enjoy the hobby the same way I do! I shall be insulted by this!

Puh-leeze. I agree that painted armies are nice, but 'worthy' of facing the battlefield? Really?

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

Umm, thats completely different.
If they liked to play, to play in a team, they'd have to practise, or they wouldn't get in the team. Quite simple, how on earth can you compare not painting to not turning up to practise? Completely different things.

For me personally painting is as big a part of the hobby as playing . I most likely spend as much time painting as I do playing, if not more. I also try to only field my painted models but not always. I do this for my own satisfaction as I take pride in how my army looks. I do not look down on people who have not painted their armies as I know it isn't for everybody.

That said there are plenty of ways to get a army on the table quickly and looking fairly decently. Even the most basically painted army looks amazing on the table when finished. Each model dose not have to be golden daemon quality.

1. Prime in a colour you want
2. Pick out metallic areas
3. Pick out some details (eyes or different colour shoulder pads)
4. Quick shade or wash

Anyone could knock out that sort of army in no time and it will look decent. My army might lose the game but they looked good doing it

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

Heres the difference. When I play warhammer, those are my models, and Im the only one who runs them. When I play on a sports team, my teammates depend on me to perform on the field. Absolutely nobody is depending on someone else to have painted models. Also, sports are competitive by nature, painting is just competing against yourself. If you and me compete in boxing, I am directly trying to hurt you, while you are trying to hurt me. If we enter a painting competition, we both put in our best on our own time, and then hope that it beats the other guys.

I am a very competitive player. If it wasnt for competitive play, I would have moved along from this hobby with my life. I dont tell the new guy who shows up with a terrible army list that hes insulting me, I go and get one of my bad armies and goof off. Or, if all I have is my coteaz, I find an excuse and dont play, as that game would not be fun for either of us.

Finally, I think the idea that 'youll never get better if you dont try' is silly. A lot of us simply dont have the drive to actually get better painting models.

I also wonder what you people think about people who don't assemble or convert their armies. I can't tell you how many armies I've assembled or models I've converted for friends who hate doing it but want to play or want a model that looks a certain way but can't/won't put in the work.

It's not my job to tell them how to enjoy their hobby(frankly, I don't give a rat's ass, do what you enjoy) and it's not any of yours either. Thinking otherwise and policing/bullying/badgering people for not doing something they don't enjoy or have the time for is just being self-righteous.

Platuan4th wrote:

brettz123 wrote:
And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

AT-43, Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok, Heroclix, Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Monsterpocalypse, Axis and Allies Minis, Wings of Glory, and Heroscape to name a few.

AT-43 --> Isn't this out of production?
Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok --> out of production
Heroclix --> Good game more people should play it
Mage Knight --> isn't this out of production too?
D&D Minis --> defianetly out of production
Star Wars Minis --> out of production
Monsterpocalypse --> is this one still going strong?
Axis and Allies Minis
Wings of Glory
Heroscape

So basically a bunch of OOP games. Not all that great of a choice in my opinion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Platuan4th wrote:I also wonder what you people think about people who don't assemble or convert their armies. I can't tell you how many armies I've assembled or models I've converted for friends who hate doing it but want to play or want a model that looks a certain way but can't/won't put in the work.

It's not my job to tell them how to enjoy their hobby(frankly, I don't give a rat's ass, do what you enjoy) and it's not any of yours either. Thinking otherwise and policing/bullying/badgering people for not doing something they don't enjoy or have the time for is just being self-righteous.

I have to admit I wouldn't play against an unassembled army...... even I have to draw a line ar that point

Painting is more important to me than playing honestly. This game is very heavily about the aesthetic to me.
Others? Not so much.
I hate seeing a sea of gray plastic on the other end of the table, but it's their prerogative.
I can no more fault a guy how never paints his models, anymore than a guy can fault me for not spending 200 hours painting my boyz to "Photo Quality"
Of course I'd prefer everyone paint to a 3 color, table top quality, but forget about it, that's not the nature of competitive gaming.
You want everyone to paint their minis? Go play an RPG where everyone is completely in love with their character, and is invested in it.
I promise you, THOSE guys paint the crap out of their minis.

brettz123 wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

brettz123 wrote:
And out of curiosity I would ask you what miniature game doesn't involve painting as one of the unstated goals of the game?

AT-43, Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok, Heroclix, Mage Knight, D&D Minis, Star Wars Minis, Monsterpocalypse, Axis and Allies Minis, Wings of Glory, and Heroscape to name a few.

AT-43 --> Isn't this out of production?
Confrontation: Age of Ragnarok --> out of production
Heroclix --> Good game more people should play it
Mage Knight --> isn't this out of production too?
D&D Minis --> defianetly out of production
Star Wars Minis --> out of production
Monsterpocalypse --> is this one still going strong?
Axis and Allies Minis
Wings of Glory
Heroscape

So basically a bunch of OOP games. Not all that great of a choice in my opinion!

You didn't ask what current games don't involve painting, and that's far from an exhaustive list. As well, regardless of being OOP, AT-43, D&D, SWM, and Monsterpocalypse(which may as well be OOP) still have very devoted followings.

Platuan4th wrote:
You didn't ask what current games don't involve painting.

True enough I should have mentioned that..........

Squidmanlolz wrote:Eidolon, at least you made the effort to paint them. It's not about having the prettiest army, but anything's better than not trying.

I disagree. A raw plastic army still has the potential to become something beautiful someday, but a badly painted one is just wasted.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:Eidolon, at least you made the effort to paint them. It's not about having the prettiest army, but anything's better than not trying.

I disagree. A raw plastic army still has the potential to become something beautiful someday, but a badly painted one is just wasted.

You have no idea. I was joking around with my friends about painting them up all slaaneshi like. Then, one night, I got stood up on a date, and half a bottle of rum later my plan was underway.
Here are some photos from a tournament in december. The models have, as of late, been based with glitter and sealed with glosscoat.





On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies. So while its not pretty, I dont feel that it is in anyway a wasted effort.

I myself hate playing unpainted models. Unfortunately my hand shakes just enough to make painting a difficult chore for me. Just look at my gallery pics, my armies are not too far above tabletop...those took me forever. Doesn't help that I am not artistic in an artistic family. I do make the effort, my marines are almost all painted now, but my guard...well they really aren't. People judge me when I play Guard but...really come on guys, to each is their own.

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

Honestly, it's a bit insulting to play against anyone that puts NO EFFORT into painting. I don't expect to see my quality arrayed against me at my FLGS, but a little bit of effort is MUCH appreciated. You spent the time to put them together/convert them, now that that part is finished, put a little time into painting them. You'll never get better if you don't try!

I'll never get better at eating shoes either, but I don't enjoy it.

How do people not understand that painting isn't fun for everyone? I can do it - I painted a few models to prove that I can. I just hate doing it.

Eidolon wrote:On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies.

Oh, I hear you!

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

Which makes it a useless analogy because you don't need to paint to play a miniature wargame.

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

Right - and getting better at painting is something I don't care about whatsoever. It's not something I enjoy.
If I signed up for a football/baseball/soccer league it'd be something I enjoy doing. I'd do it to get better at it.
Playing 40k is practicing. Every game you get slightly better (just like practicing football/soccer/etc). It's something I enjoy. I'm going to do it.

The analogy fails.

edit: I want to play 40k. Playing 40k does not involve painting - there's no rules requirement, it doesn't change the performance of my mandollies, it just makes things look objectively better.
I want to play football. Playing football doesn't involve wearing uniforms - there's no rules requirement and it doesn't change my performance on the playing field - it just makes things look objectively better.

Seriously - how is it hard to understand that paining isn't required and that some people just freaking hate doing it?
Why are you requiring someone to do something that they freaking hate?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Eidolon wrote:On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies.

Oh, I hear you!

Mines better, because it didnt come from 4chan

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

J'santai Khan wrote:I have to wonder how many of the 'I don't paint for whatever reason' people would join a football/baseball/soccer league because they 'liked to play', and would then never show up for practice. It seems kinda the same to me. I sign up, buy my equipment/uniform, show up for practice and then get the enjoyment of playing against people who have done the same. They sign up, buy thier equipment/uniforms, never show up for practice and sit on the bench because they suck, but still like to brag when they're on the winning team.

Practicing makes you better at the game - the reason you joined the team.
Painting does not make you better at the game - the reason some people play 40k.

See the difference and why your analogy is dumb?

His analogy is fine. You, on the other hand, missed the point of his analogy entirely. Painting doesn't make you better at the game. Painting makes you better at painting.

No, I think you missed the point. Nobody plays a sport to have a pretty uniform, you play a sport for the game itself. Some people dont care about painting, so they dont do it, but they can still play the game.

I haven't started painting yet because tbh I'm scared to.
I know with my painting level I can't meet the standard that my conversion/modeling work is at. So I know I have awsome custom expensive converted models but will have absolute gak paint jobs.

I personally don't like playing with/against unpainted armies. I do sometimes use my armies that are in the process of being painted if I feel like a change from my fully painted armies but I always feel a bit embarrassed fielding a primed only/unbased unit/model with my finished models.

Eidolon wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Eidolon wrote:On the one hand, it is a pretty ugly army. On the other hand, it is pretty hilarious, and I think a good parody of both the grimdark nature of the game, and how serious a lot of people take their plastic dollies.

Oh, I hear you!

Mines better, because it didnt come from 4chan

That's my tank, dammit!

Look here, it's the same desk.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420932.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/415998.page

Most fabulous army competition, coming to an lgs near you 2012

As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I'm not the greatest painter, but with all the paint guides around, videos, forums, WD tutorials etc etc there really is no excuse. Are people seriously suggesting that they couldn't paint skeletons using the army painter method? or something similar?

I make an exception for youngsters or people getting started in the hobby to encouraga them, but for everybody else, get a grip!!