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Opinions abound:

I have always loved hobby stuff, trains and slot cars coupled with a love of fantasy and Sci-Fi. It was fate for me to get into 40k, Before I even knew what 40k was I was buying a box of rogue trader era marines and a fantasy box of skeletons just to assemble and paint. For me personally 40K has been 51% hobby, 49% game. Even when I didn't play for entire editions, I still painted and worked on the guys I had. If I hated 6th ed. and quit playing I would not get rid of my guys. We have a relationship, they are the reward for all the time and effort I put into painting them.

I will admit, I do not get the guys who dont / wont / cant paint their armies. I have more respect for someone who lacks in skill but still works on their armies and shows up every week with a little more progress done than the guys who just dont paint their armies. I CANT STAND the guys who NEVER paint their dudes, these people also seem to be the same people who sweep up their guys into sterlite containers for stowage and transport. The same people who lose guys and the same people that every Friday drop another $100 on a model kit(s) that will look like . All I see is the waste of money, the waste of potential of that awesome kit (And I am not the worlds best painter). Just my feelings on this matter. In other words, I care that I just spent $X on a model kit and I want it to look as damn good as I can get it to maximize my enjoyment out of my investment.

Gaming for me has always been about immersion, whether we are talking about tabletop or video games. Poor immersion for me usually relates to a poor or less enjoyably gaming experience. If all of GW's books (rule book, codex, etc) had unpainted models, and coke cans and books for terrain being played on someone's kitchen table, the sales pitch would not be very good. When you play someone with and each player has a table standard painted army and a good gaming board to play on it raises the epic feel of the battle. It raises enjoyment. Again IMO.

40k is a game that demands a certain level of commitment on a social level (IMO). You commit socially to not degrade other players enjoyment by putting your shabby models on the same board. Like wise you don't show up to participate in a team tournament if you are unfamiliar with the rules in 40k. That player is counting on you to pull your weight, and doesn't want to have to explain things along the way. Now my analogy isn't perfect, you do have the choice not to play someone with an unpainted army but I think what the problem is, is that you have a majority of poorly painted armies and a minority of armies painted to table standard or better.

So are we just at the level of elitist gaming snobs? well maybe in someway some of us are... Some of us have a lot of expectations of our time spent playing 40k. Everyone's time is valuable and as a 31 year old father who is also a student, I can tell you my time is precious. Maybe more precious than a 15 year old off on summer break who can eat sleep breathe 40k and whatever else they want to do (ah to be a kid again). When I show up to play 40k at my local store I usually have to wait an hour to get a table. Most of the people there are there for a longer period of time than I have, most of them are much younger and most of their armies are unpainted. If I can find the time to get some paint down, why cant these people ? Some will sit there and paint up a new guy they bought or assemble some kit (which I dont understand, as personally I like peace and quiet when I assemble and paint) but that is few and far between.

What it comes down to is each person has their own expectations. I LOVE 40k IP (could be considered a fanboy). I want to do homage to the IP by having a cool looking army. Some people don't get that into it, and thats OK.

Not every nerd can be a fanboy of such a cool and epic world as 40k!

~Lion~

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I'm not the greatest painter, but with all the paint guides around, videos, forums, WD tutorials etc etc there really is no excuse. Are people seriously suggesting that they couldn't paint skeletons using the army painter method? or something similar?

I make an exception for youngsters or people getting started in the hobby to encouraga them, but for everybody else, get a grip!!

Yes, my utter lack of enjoyment in painting has everything to do with how lazy I am. Good catch.

It's not about skill (I can make them look decent), it's not about time (I can make time)... I just hate doing it.
I'll get them all done eventually (You can only watch Netflix for so long...)...

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I have nerve damage and the only way I can get tabletop quality painting is through commission work. Good thing I am lumped into lazy.

High horses all over the place.

Pacific wrote:For the OP, and this thread in general, I think its important to acknowledge that this is principally a problem with 40k. At least from my experience of games nights in various clubs/FLGS they have by far the highest proportion of non-painted minis, I would say when I was playing 40k a lot maybe only 1 in 4 was a completed and painted army. And if I were being honest, it was a fairly important factor in me losing enthusiasm for the system. Hell, even unassembled sometimes, and some extensive proxying (the 'Carnifex as a coke tin' is not just a legend, I have seen it used! ) At the opposite end of the scale is historical stuff, in Flames of War I am struggling to think of a game I have played against a non-painted force.

The people with the least painted armies at mine are actually the youngest.
But i will not say to someone they cant play be because they dont have a fully painted force, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Really? There are rules in the game for painted models? Where exactly?

Red paint job for ork trukks? I don't even know if that's still in the game.

Red paint job is an upgrade, sure. That doesn't mean the truck actually has to be painted red.

Nor do any of your models, for that matter. I'd much rather play my painted miniatures against your painted miniatures, and I strive to have my stuff painted, but that's not 100% required. We may have different reasons for playing, collecting, and modeling our 40k miniatures.

To me, playing a WYSIWYG army is much more important than playing a painted one.

kronk wrote:Red paint job is an upgrade, sure. That doesn't mean the truck actually has to be painted red.

Nor do any of your models, for that matter. I'd much rather play my painted miniatures against your painted miniatures, and I strive to have my stuff painted, but that's not 100% required. We may have different reasons for playing, collecting, and modeling our 40k miniatures.

To me, playing a WYSIWYG army is much more important than playing a painted one.

I just remember that in one edition of the Ork rules your trukks actually had to be painted red. One of my friends simply painted the word "red" on his otherwise unpainted trukks...

hotsauceman1 wrote:
The people with the least painted armies at mine are actually the youngest.
But i will not say to someone they cant play be because they dont have a fully painted force, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

And I find it annoying that people dismiss those who do not, or cannot partake in the hobby the same way they are. Let's do a little example.

I am big into the fluff and backstory, if you have not read the BL novels of the factions, I want nothing to do with you and will say you have no right to field the army that you don't intricately know the fluff and backstory of. See? I can put unrealistic and annoying judgments on other players, too!

rigeld2 wrote:

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As far as I'm concerned, people who don't paint = lazy b******s!!!

I've got a job, got other things to do, got a home/car to run etc etc but I still manage to find the time to do 5 models every 2 to 3 weeks. Are people so busy that they can't do 5 models at least once a month? C'mon!!

I'm not the greatest painter, but with all the paint guides around, videos, forums, WD tutorials etc etc there really is no excuse. Are people seriously suggesting that they couldn't paint skeletons using the army painter method? or something similar?

I make an exception for youngsters or people getting started in the hobby to encouraga them, but for everybody else, get a grip!!

Yes, my utter lack of enjoyment in painting has everything to do with how lazy I am. Good catch.

It's not about skill (I can make them look decent), it's not about time (I can make time)... I just hate doing it.
I'll get them all done eventually (You can only watch Netflix for so long...)...

rigeld2, we are of the same opinion.

I am in the unfortunate camp that is as equally drawn to the aesthetics of the hobby as I am the game play, but I loath painting.* I have the time to paint but it is not enjoyable in the least and more often than not feels like a burden. So, I do not prioritize my free time to include painting. That does not make me lazy it makes me disinterested. For those of us who only speak one language I am sure some polyglots could come along and accuse us of being lazy for not learning an additional language or two. Is that really laziness, though? Or is it just a lack of interest/incentive to spend the time and effort to practice something that holds no real value for the person? I could go on Youtube and learn Mandarin, or how to play the guitar, or how to bake a souffle. But I am not interested in learning to do any of those things so am I lazy, Do_I_Not_Like_That? Because, I enjoy eating Chinese food on occasion, love to listen to music, and have found very few baked goods that aren't pure heaven, so I guess I am a big, lazy donkey-cave for not making an effort in acquiring the abilities to replicate those things that enjoy, right?




*Luckily some people enjoy painting enough to hire out their services and for that I am thankful because it allows me to play with fully painted armies. But to judge and turn away potential players because they don't field fully painted armies, and have no interested in doing so, is ludicrous in my eyes.

hotsauceman1 wrote:, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

You've done it now, you've flipped my switch.

What is the "entire hobby"?

Playing games is a hobby. I can play AT-43 without painting or modelling.

Painting is a hobby. I can paint Reaper models without playing or modelling.

Modelling is a hobby. I can model wargame armies without painting them or even playing a game.

There is no mythical "The Hobby" that somehow encompasses and requires them all, that is an imagining devised by and forced down our throats by GW. 40K is a thing that encompasses these different hobbies, yes, but they are not required to enjoy 40K as a hobby.

I'm close to having my World Eaters army fully painted (I have 5 berzerkers, 5 obliterators, and 2 rhinos to go) and then I'll move on to my Necrons which aren't hard to paint at all. Only problem for me is finding some time to sit down an paint them. I enjoy it, I'm not great but I like how my models turn out so I really don't care. My only downside is I hate doing anything with vehicles.

curran12 wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:
The people with the least painted armies at mine are actually the youngest.
But i will not say to someone they cant play be because they dont have a fully painted force, but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

And I find it annoying that people dismiss those who do not, or cannot partake in the hobby the same way they are. Let's do a little example.

I am big into the fluff and backstory, if you have not read the BL novels of the factions, I want nothing to do with you and will say you have no right to field the army that you don't intricately know the fluff and backstory of. See? I can put unrealistic and annoying judgments on other players, too!

Funny you should mention this, I used to play against a guy who hands down, insisted he wouldn't read the fluff, it was just a game and that was all he was interested in. The problem was, when we were playing there was no "banter", well, no game related banter, so the whole game felt like we were playing chess.

The lesson for me in that was that people view these games in lots of different ways, and while we have to respect that, we also have to be mindful about how we, ourselves, enjoy the experience. If I knew someone was illiterate, but wanted to know the fluff, I would happily spend hours informing them verbally about the background etc, and likewise, if I knew someone had a handicap that didn't allow them to paint, I would offer to help. If someone (like my mate) just wasn't interested, I would have to consider whether playing with them would actually allow me to enjoy the experience, and if not, then really, what's the point.

I do think that miniatures really come to life when they have colour applied, but how many people can paint to GD standard, or good enough to really bring out the best in a miniature? I sure as hell can't. Those ultra detailed Infinity figures, I bet there are few people who can make then sing

So having said that, and getting back on topic, I would love to see a great painted army, but if it was a choice between poor paint and bare metal, I'll take bare metal, at least you can see the damn detail

hotsauceman1 wrote: but i just find it annoying that people pick up an entire hobby and dont do it.

You're going to dance on a lot of people's nerves with that one, HSM1. They most certainly are "doing it". If they don't want to paint, fine. If they don't want to base their models, fine. Who are you to say they aren't doing it? No one, really.

Also, please start using the search function here and in the 40k discussion area. You'd see that this topic comes up once a quarter and gets very heated. It typically gets heated when people make comments like the one you just made. Do you want to start a flame war? Are you trolling? Are you bored?

Why would you say something that provocative?

PhantomViper wrote:Because they like the actual game? Because they like the models?

The game doesn't require painting in any way, shape or form. Saying that people that only wan't to play the game should be required to paint the models in order to enjoy the part of the hobby that they like is ridiculous and is basically the same as saying that people that only buy the models to build and paint, should then be forced to play with them!

Painting may be a part of your hobby, but it doesn't mean that it is a part of everyone else's.

You can't say painting is not a part of miniature gaming unless the models come prepainted. As I said, it's part of the appeal; it comes as a package. You get not only to play, but to do it with models you have put effort and skill into; it's as much handicraft as it is gaming.

Now, if you don't like a part of the package, that's fine. Nobody is denying you this right (or if they do, they are being ridiculous and don't deserve your attention).
The thing I can't wrap my head around is : why then pick an activity where painting is part of the experience, when there are dozens of others that do not involve it at all to begin with ? I'm tempted to make a comparison, but people would only answer to that part and nitpick it to death.

I for one am primarily interested in playing, but I wouldn't bother with miniatures if I didn't also enjoy painting, not when there are so much alternatives available. I guess that doesn't strike me as very rational.

Then again, you don't have to be, and nobody is saying you what to do with your free time.

KrimsunBaron wrote:Painting can get people down, it's a tough skill to learn and has a steep learning curve.

As I said in my first post, it's actually pretty easy to get a decent job done with a very basic technique; there's no need to aim for a Golden Demon level if your priority is to play.

I don't like playing unpainted armies and think that the people who don't are lazy, it doesn't take much to paint your army, I am not an artistic person but with a little effort still have a table top quality army.

I like painted armies. I don't give a damn if they're painted, however.

Will I ever turn down an opponent who spray painted his BA red and left it at that? Hell no! Will I ever insult a grey army? No! If I see a nicely painted army, do I want to play it with my painted army more than a grey one? Yes, because it looks damn cool.

Different strokes for different folks, people.

I hate painting.

I collect models for the game, the converting and the moddeling.

Painting is just a boring horrible option i do not want to take part in for me.

That and the amount of times i will paint something up, take it down somewhere and play someone with a sexy as hell army, it makes mine look like a bag of gak.

Its Depressing...

Privateer itself is largely to blame for the proliferation of unpainted armies in the Warmahordes scene.

Early on they made every effort to be the "anti-GW" and do ANYTHING that would gain them support and build their fanbase:

You want to powergame and be proud of it? Come on over and PLYHAP.

You want metal instead of silly plastic toys? Come on over.

You hate other people telling you you have to paint and feeling excluded? We don't require painting so come on over.

Other then in one certain tournament format painting did not used to ever be a requirement in Warmahordes events and seeing unpainted (and even partially assembled) models in use became commonplace. I havent played in a few years so I don't know if this has shifted at all, but based upon this thread I'm guessing not so much...


That being said People enjoy different things for different reasons and everyone has varying degrees of enthusiasm, time and ability when it comes to painting/converting/terrain making.

Insisting that everyone must like something (wargaming in this case) for the same reasons as you and must participate exactly as you do is rather self-centered and ignorant tbh...

I love to paint and convert and build terrain. Many don't. Life will go on...

So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

CT GAMER wrote:
Other then in one certain tournament format painting did not used to ever be a requirement in Warmahordes events and became commonplace. I havent played in a few years so I don't know if this has shifted at all, but based upon this thread I'm guessing not so much...

It shifted in MkII. More and more events are requiring it.

The thing with PP is that, while they've always encouraged painting, they never wanted it to be mandatory to enjoy their game.

Guess that's the difference between a games company(PP) and a miniatures company(GW).

Platuan4th wrote:What is the "entire hobby"?

Playing games is a hobby. I can play AT-43 without painting or modelling.

Painting is a hobby. I can paint Reaper models without playing or modelling.

Modelling is a hobby. I can model wargame armies without painting them or even playing a game.

That's one view on the subject, and I'm not saying it's wrong, but I see it differently. To me, it's about "miniature wargaming". It is an activity that encompasses the three you mentioned. When I buy a kit, I get to tinker with it to my taste, paint it the way I think will look best, and play with it to put my brain to the test. I see it as a whole, because it offers me all that and I want to get the maximum value on my investment; if I'm not enjoying 100% of what I can get with a purchase, it doesn't feel like money wisely spent. Hope that makes sense.

If you see it that way, then more power to you.

Okay here goes! I've been collecting/playing/painting models etc since 1983, I'm now 47 and still enjoy it. This is what I've learned; you've got to have fun! Its that simple. Many have posted valid reasons for not finding the time to paint; I'll counter this by saying you've got to make time, even just to keep your sanity. Life becomes very very boring if you don't allow time for yourselves to do something fun, like painting a miniature or two! I have a job that involves very bizarre hours which makes painting time haphazard to say the least. BUT I still find time to paint, sometimes its the only thing that keeps me sane. You honestly do not want to get to an old age and look back and say "I wish I had...". You've only got one shot at life, by all means make time for others/work etc, but make damn sure that you make time for yourself.I think the biggest problem people have is they are trying to emulate the top painters and getting frustrated when they don't even get close. I used to be one of them. My solution is easy; paint for your own enjoyment. So what if you don't emulate the best in the business, I'll let you in on the big secret; many of us are just at the competent level. We got there by picking up a brush and going crazy with the paint! Who cares if your first minis are a bit rough? With practice you will get better. Don't give up before you start!

Slipstream wrote:This is what I've learned; you've got to have fun!

Here's where the rest of the post breaks down, because for some people, painting just isn't fun.

Painting to me enhances the game experience. I'm a poor gamer (I play SW and get routinely blasted by Eldar) but a very visual person. If I'm going to get stomped I at least want to look at pretty models and terrain. It helps me to immerse myself in the game and in the experience, instead of just pushing plastic soldiers around a table.

It's like the difference between watching a good movie in black and white and then in colour, or in SDTV vs. HDTV. I may enjoy the black and white or SDTV, but I'll enjoy the full colour, HDTV much more.

Hyd wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:Because they like the actual game? Because they like the models?

The game doesn't require painting in any way, shape or form. Saying that people that only wan't to play the game should be required to paint the models in order to enjoy the part of the hobby that they like is ridiculous and is basically the same as saying that people that only buy the models to build and paint, should then be forced to play with them!

Painting may be a part of your hobby, but it doesn't mean that it is a part of everyone else's.

You can't say painting is not a part of miniature gaming unless the models come prepainted. As I said, it's part of the appeal; it comes as a package. You get not only to play, but to do it with models you have put effort and skill into; it's as much handicraft as it is gaming.

Now, if you don't like a part of the package, that's fine. Nobody is denying you this right (or if they do, they are being ridiculous and don't deserve your attention).
The thing I can't wrap my head around is : why then pick an activity where painting is part of the experience, when there are dozens of others that do not involve it at all to begin with ? I'm tempted to make a comparison, but people would only answer to that part and nitpick it to death.

I for one am primarily interested in playing, but I wouldn't bother with miniatures if I didn't also enjoy painting, not when there are so much alternatives available. I guess that doesn't strike me as very rational.

Then again, you don't have to be, and nobody is saying you what to do with your free time.

KrimsunBaron wrote:Painting can get people down, it's a tough skill to learn and has a steep learning curve.

As I said in my first post, it's actually pretty easy to get a decent job done with a very basic technique; there's no need to aim for a Golden Demon level if your priority is to play.

This.

GW didn't invent painting your miniatures. Miniatures wargaming has always included it. For many decades this had been part of the culture of historical miniatures wargaming. Even today many wargamers hold it as a basic assumption that they will never put an unpainted model on the table for a game.

It may not seem fun at first but I guarentee you that once you learn how to paint a model in a tidy manner you'll get a huge boost and you'll want to paint more. Also it is a great feeling to see your projects really take shape, why just stop at the modelling/conversion part when paint will bring your creations to life?

lord_blackfang wrote:

Slipstream wrote:This is what I've learned; you've got to have fun!

Here's where the rest of the post breaks down, because for some people, painting just isn't fun.

It wasn't fun for me when I first tried it, though I was proud of the results when I got a unit done. It does require effort, and I still tend to procrastinate on it, but am always pleased and happy when I get it done. And proud to show off my stuff at the store. There are a ton of tricks and techniques you can use to make it fast, too.

Mannahnin wrote:For many decades this had been part of the culture of historical miniatures wargaming. Even today many wargamers hold it as a basic assumption that they will never put an unpainted model on the table for a game.

Then we've had two very different experiences as I've seen many a historical game with no paint on the table.

Mostly Warhammer Historicals, though. Those Napoleonics are nutters about everything being painted exactingly.

Primestick wrote:So you have to work to buy the $1,500.00 army that takes at least 2 weeks to build. So you get off at five by the time you finish the "death race" home it’s around 6 if some fether dint slam his car into the wall. You eat dinner and then listen to the wife bitch for an hour after about some meaningless chore she wants you to do. Take a shower now because your all sweaty it’s close to 8:30 9:00, gak! You have to get up at 6:00am for work and start this gakky meaningless life over again, well feth painting tonight. Saturday rolls around option #1) take care of gak that broke/grew/fell/collected around the house. #2) play that army you spent $1,500.00 on #3) Go buy hundreds of $ in paint then spent all day painting.

I'll just play the game after I mow the lawn since my friends that have no job live with mom and have painted armies dont get up till noon!

This man knows his stuff/ Well until the last line. My roomate is like that

I understand why men with careers don't paint. If you don't ahve family/tons of work and obligations. Go and paint. I enjoy painting and look foward to it. I will paint because I make time to paint. During the week? Please gawd no. Anything but painting. Working 7-6 shifts in a small cubicle. Yes I make more money then ever... but do I want to buy more stuff? Because then I need to paint it,.


I now understand why people hired me to paint their armies when I was 16/17

If you have time to play, you have time to paint.
Even just to table top standard, all you need is a main colour primer, and like 2 other paints just to give it some other colours. That should be enough to at least make it look presentable. It would take you like 5-10 minutes per model. I think its embarrasing to play without a painted army. The only exception is if you are trying new units or something, but even then the majority of your stuff would be painted.