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Grimtuff wrote:

Stoupe wrote:
Yes you may! Half the fun of our paint bar is gay chicken. Idk. I feel like if I can't joke around with you, playing you is more a chore than fun. To me the paint bar is more fun than the gaming table. I'd rather spend my time there and I hate painting.

Homosexual Poultry...

Please explain.

Have you never played chicken? Gay chicken is just a version of that where we increasingly flirt with each other until one member of the party either gets disgusted or breaks out laughing. It's quite funny and often all about getting reactions out of others. My gf actually dies laughing at it. I have a sense of humor toward the outrageous though, so it's definitely crazy.

It doesn't have to be humor, but I want to play people who I can have a conversation with. Silent, or worse yet socially awkward, players are a chore to play with. Hanging out at the store and painting is way to fix this and let me know your someone I can talk to while playing.

Eidolon wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

Eidolon wrote:But why should they have to? Why should they have to enjoy the hobby the same way you do?

I'm not saying they have to. But the vast majority of "permanent grey hordes" players I've come across are nothing short of lethargic that hang around the local GW all day then play Xbox/watch TV by night yet claim they have no time to paint their armies.

I'll play whoever, but I'll give preference to a painted army over an unpainted one.

Really? Whats hanging around the local gw all day? 7 days a week? Just saturday and sunday? I find it hard to believe there are people, who arent teenagers on summer break, who spend all day at the game store and all night playing video games.

Believe me. They exist and I've shared a house with one.

Eidolon wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

Eidolon wrote:But why should they have to? Why should they have to enjoy the hobby the same way you do?

I'm not saying they have to. But the vast majority of "permanent grey hordes" players I've come across are nothing short of lethargic that hang around the local GW all day then play Xbox/watch TV by night yet claim they have no time to paint their armies.

I'll play whoever, but I'll give preference to a painted army over an unpainted one.

Really? Whats hanging around the local gw all day? 7 days a week? Just saturday and sunday? I find it hard to believe there are people, who arent teenagers on summer break, who spend all day at the game store and all night playing video games.

The local GW I go to has a guy like that. At least he's there every time I go in. (different days, times etc) But... he's sitting there painting minis.

I do believe he supplies all his own paints. I think it is a good thing for the store because the staff member isn't the most knowledgeable on painting techniques.

What gives any of you the right to tell me how to enjoy these wargames or this hobby?

If I don't want to paint and would rather deflect your barrage of questions by saying I don't have the time, then that is my right and none of your business. If you want to be an Eliteist Snob and don't want to play me that's your right and none of my business.

This has been 12 pages of painters trying to be right about painted armies. 12 Pages of "you do have the time, you're lazy, and you're not playing the game right" just to feel superior than everyone else. Get off your high horse and quit telling everyone how to enjoy THEIR hobby.

insaniak wrote:
This is the problem with what is being suggested in this thread. A bunch of people have apparently decided that if you don't participate in the hobby their way, then you're doing it wrong, and now we have the suggestion that there is some sort of 'rating standard' that you have to pass in order to be participating in the hobby.

Can you honestly not see how that is just a little bit crazy?

Though you usually play with others and not on your own, in which case your hobby overlaps with others. I'm not bothered by what a group of friends agree between each other, but when going to public venues where you play strangers, and play in front of the public (like at a wargames show) it seems basic good etiquette to paint your stuff IMO. An expectation of a painted army does not seem like an unreasonable standard to meet for gaming in general.

Howard A Treesong wrote:. An expectation of a painted army does not seem like an unreasonable standard to meet for gaming in general.

The thing is, it's a very short step from there to 'Your army must be 'this' good to play'...

I've seen several armies over the years that would have looked better if the owner had never tried painting them. I've seen quite a few more that were just basecoated, which several people in this thread have said is acceptable (because it shows some 'effort') but which, frankly, doesn't seem any different to just running bare plastic.

Expecting models to be assembled is one thing, because that is more or less required for the game to function as written. But painting has no practical effect on the game... it just makes it prettier to look at. Which, in my mind, makes it a preferable alternative, but certainly not a necessity.

gorgon wrote:

brettz123 wrote:This kind of argument is always just so stupid. I could also knit a sweater too. So what? What does literally having the time have to do with anything? People have other things to do that are either more important ot them or more fun. So again what is your point?

He's saying that the "I don't have time to paint" argument is an excuse.

I happen to agree. I'd rather have someone tell me they just aren't interested. That's honest, whereas "no time" isn't reality for 99% of hobbyists.

No it isn't an excuse it is a reason. There is a big difference. If I have other things I am going to do that take up my free time then it is a legitimate reason not to paint. Just because a person has free time without any commitments doesn't mean they have time to paint. It really isn't that big of a mental stretch to understand that.

I skipped a lot of the discussion because it started going in a circle around page 3. Lets agree to two things at least.

1. Not everyone enjoys/physically able/cares/wants to paint models.

2. Although it is not written in the rules, for a great number of people, they have more fun playing against a painted army.

I know my paint jobs are not great and have only played one game. This is because I'm new to the whole scene as a whole. I would like to add that I really like some of the paint jobs that people have done on their models, but some people lack the technical skill, steady hands, or simply time to paint all their models or in some case, any of their models. A lot of people also work a fourty hour a week job, so when it comes to sleep or painting, sleep will always win. Or at least should, but thats a different topic.

helium42 wrote:How exactly do you come to the conclusion that people who choose not to paint their armies have a self-entitled attitude? :facepalm.

People can choose to do whatever they want with their 'armies' And I use the term loosely, because I want to cover not just painting, but proxying and counts-as.

But the instant they get indignant and self-righteous because someone else doesn't want to play against them because of their choice to field a crap army, they become self entitled.

This doesn't just apply to painting, it applies to everything. Don't waste your time playing against armies/gamers that you don't want to.

Kaldor wrote:

helium42 wrote:How exactly do you come to the conclusion that people who choose not to paint their armies have a self-entitled attitude? :facepalm.

People can choose to do whatever they want with their 'armies' And I use the term loosely, because I want to cover not just painting, but proxying and counts-as.

But the instant they get indignant and self-righteous because someone else doesn't want to play against them because of their choice to field a crap army, they become self entitled.

This doesn't just apply to painting, it applies to everything. Don't waste your time playing against armies/gamers that you don't want to.

Your argument doesn't equate with what we are seeing in this thread. Find me a single thread that was started by a non-painter who was feeling indignant and self-righteous because somebody decided to pass on playing against their unpainted army. I don't think you can. However you can find many threads started by people who play with painted armies who get indignant and self-righteous because somebody dared to show up at their FLGS to play with an (gasp) unpainted army.

It is some of the people in the painted crowd who are getting bent out of shape here. I could give a rats ass if somebody didn't want to play against one of my unpainted armies, and I would have no ill feelings toward them for it, as long as they didn't give me a hard time about the fact that I didn't paint said army. I think there is plenty of room for painters/non-painters/and those who don't care either way. I understand that there are people who enjoy their wargames in a different manner than I do.

I get bent out of shape when some of the people in the painted army crowd want to start new threads every month calling out others as being lazy, childish, self-entitled, or any of the other barbs thrown in this thread today.

i personally cant stand people who dont paint or make an effort to paint their armies it ruins the game for me i enjoy playing with a painted force against a painted force personally or someone whos in the process of painting is fine so long as each time we play together something else has been completed not the same grey stuff every week

victor.IG wrote:i personally cant stand people who dont paint or make an effort to paint their armies it ruins the game for me i enjoy playing with a painted force against a painted force personally or someone whos in the process of painting is fine so long as each time we play together something else has been completed not the same grey stuff every week

I personally can't stand people who don't use punctuation or proper capitalization. It ruins the forum for me. I enjoy reading posts by literate people, or by someone who attempts to write like they're over the age of 10.

On a more serious note:

"I don't have the time" is a terrible excuse. You do have the time. Maybe you spend it playing PS3. Maybe you spend it hiking, or reading, or writing, or participating in other activities you find enjoyable. You should be spending that time painting. How dare you spend your leisure time on activities you find more enjoyable than painting? For shame.


(massive sarcasm intended)

Well, you are expected to paint your army as part of the hobby. Painting is a key part of it and contributes to its overall success.

I would say a 3 colour minimum is the least anyone should be prepared to adhere to. It's part of the hobby and if you just see fit to remove what you don't like then it's no longer 40k, it's just a bunch of unfinished GW miniatures being pushed around on a table.

No one but an ***hole is going to give you stick for not being a good painter, but you are going to ruin the experience for a lot of players that do put the effort into painting their armies. It's not just about you and your preference, it's about others who also participate, put the effort in where you do not, and I might add, are the very same people who you also depend on to enjoy it yourself.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.
Out of the 8-10 people ther only 3 can field a fully painted 1500 the rest have primer and show they give a little bit about painting. This may change though because we will be giving people points for the campaign for coming with a fully painted army.
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

I still have a lot of unpainted models, but thats because I'm always adding new stuff to my many armies. So my stack of unpainted mini's builds up. But hey at least ill have something to do on a rainy day.

Also, when i first started with the hobby i happily just slapped on the paint and called it done. But as you get better ad it you start to xritisize your own work more and more ( least I do. ) and you start setting higher and higher standards for yourself. Wich in turn slows down the painting process. thus the pile of grey plastic never seems to shrink ( much )

At least this is how it is for me. I dunno if other people do this but just my 2 pennies.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:Well, you are expected to paint your army as part of the hobby. Painting is a key part of it and contributes to its overall success.

I would say a 3 colour minimum is the least anyone should be prepared to adhere to. It's part of the hobby and if you just see fit to remove what you don't like then it's no longer 40k, it's just a bunch of unfinished GW miniatures being pushed around on a table.

This may be one of the most daft things I have read in this thread.

If I play a game with or against an unpainted model/army it IS indeed still a game of WHW40K.

Some people have no desire to be a "hobbiest" they simpy enjoy playing the game, and assembled models meet the requirement for gameplay as defined by the rules.

If you don't enjoy playing with/against unpainted models then don't play that person.

This thread is mind numbing...

Some people have real life gak to attend with, aka kids, working a gakky job and then facing a 4 hour commute home every day. Mix that with kids and then I understand and empathise if you don't turn up with any painted models.

But if you are a lazy donkey-cave who smokes weed all day and doesn't work out of choice then that pisses me off quite a bit.

I find people who "make no attempt" (i.e. never will attempt to paint) a bit silly. Especially in 40k or Fantasy where you will spend obscene sums of money. Taking forever to paint an army, partially painted armies, or whatever are all fine. Personally I'm a terrible painter and have been working to get models up to tabletop standard (certainly not anything for display our tourneys).

Win at all costers are still by far the worst though.

Harriticus wrote:I find people who "make no attempt" (i.e. never will attempt to paint) a bit silly. Especially in 40k or Fantasy where you will spend obscene sums of money.

Why is it silly because you spend alot of money? I can tell you from experience unpainted models have more trade value then painted ones when you go to trade or sell them(unless you paint EXTREMELY well, but even then you'll never get the value your looking for for that good a paint job).

Something I want to point out is that the people who I have met who are really serious about painting, basically dont care about how other people paint their armies when playing. If they are confident their models look good, and are happy with them, they dont go out of their way to browbeat others for not painting/painting poorly. It seems to be a kind of grognard mentality, and has nothing to do with the actual quality of modeling/painting.

Kaldor wrote:

helium42 wrote:How exactly do you come to the conclusion that people who choose not to paint their armies have a self-entitled attitude? :facepalm.

People can choose to do whatever they want with their 'armies' And I use the term loosely, because I want to cover not just painting, but proxying and counts-as.

But the instant they get indignant and self-righteous because someone else doesn't want to play against them because of their choice to field a crap army, they become self entitled.

This doesn't just apply to painting, it applies to everything. Don't waste your time playing against armies/gamers that you don't want to.

But, nobody who doesnt paint is getting self righteous. None of the 'i dont paint crowd' is saying that you cant paint, or that they wont play you. What makes you entitled for someone else to spend hours of their time doing something so that you get to look at toy soldiers with different colors on them than grey? Deciding you wont play against and to look down on someone who doesnt paint is a very shallow approach to gaming. And whats a 'crap army'? If my models are really well painted, and yours are only table top quality, I, by your logic, have the right to go 'nah, your army looks like gak, ill play someone who puts more time into painting'. If you get offended by this, you are feeling entitled and self righteous.

victor.IG wrote:i personally cant stand people who dont paint or make an effort to paint their armies it ruins the game for me i enjoy playing with a painted force against a painted force personally or someone whos in the process of painting is fine so long as each time we play together something else has been completed not the same grey stuff every week

You should probably stop making 40k such an important part of your life then, and not worry so much about how far along others are coming along with their painting. I know that I dont track other peoples progress week to week.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:Well, you are expected to paint your army as part of the hobby. Painting is a key part of it and contributes to its overall success.

I would say a 3 colour minimum is the least anyone should be prepared to adhere to. It's part of the hobby and if you just see fit to remove what you don't like then it's no longer 40k, it's just a bunch of unfinished GW miniatures being pushed around on a table.

No one but an ***hole is going to give you stick for not being a good painter, but you are going to ruin the experience for a lot of players that do put the effort into painting their armies. It's not just about you and your preference, it's about others who also participate, put the effort in where you do not, and I might add, are the very same people who you also depend on to enjoy it yourself.

Its only people with too much time on their hands, and too much obsession over gaming who think like this. Once again with the work out analogy. Some people look for the entire 'exercise' experience, some people only want parts of it. The body builders leave the distance runners alone, and vice versa. I have never seen someone get off a weight machine, walk over to a treadmill and say 'hey, the fact that youre running 5 miles today makes me feel lonely and ruins my gym experience, I think you should spend 30 minutes lifting each time you are in here. Dont tell me you dont have time for it, cut some distance of your running.'

I think all the people saying they don't have the skill is laughable. You'll never GET the skill if you don't pick up the brush. That's what practice is for.

Also there is no excuse for not at least doing the old GW store playing standard of 'three colors and based'

If not it's just being lazy in my book.

Furthermore if I'm spending 40-80 bucks on a miniature(s) I'm going to put forth some love and effort into building, converting and painting it.

People that just slap together thier models, stinks of the rich gamers that just buy everything they need to win and don't care about the actual hobby itself.

KingmanHighborn wrote:I think all the people saying they don't have the skill is laughable. You'll never GET the skill if you don't pick up the brush. That's what practice is for.

Also there is no excuse for not at least doing the old GW store playing standard of 'three colors and based'

If not it's just being lazy in my book.

Furthermore if I'm spending 40-80 bucks on a miniature(s) I'm going to put forth some love and effort into building, converting and painting it.

I can agree with this, but the tone is stupid.

People that just slap together thier models, stinks of the rich gamers that just buy everything they need to win and don't care about the actual hobby itself.

Oh, so you lost to someone with a grey legion and are butthurt about it? Must be that they are incredibly wealthy and just dont care about the same, very important things you do. Things that should be important to all of us.

Personally, I'm using painting as motivation to start a new project. I want to start a WHFB Dark Elves army, but I don't like the idea of having two unfinished armies. My goal is to get my Space Wolves 100% painted before I buy a single model or army book for those Dark Elves.

Not liking something should not equal not liking people who do it.

It's totally fine for you to like painting, prefer playing painted armies, or even refuse to play against unpainted armies. Those are your preferences, and you are entitled to them. There's nothing wrong with them, and there's nothing wrong with you for having them. Those preferences don't make you elitist, or a snob, or a douche.

Someone else might not want to play against WAAC gamers, or Tau players, or strangers. I have a lot of difficulty getting up the nerve to play strangers at stores/conventions.

Moving from having your own preferences to making assumptions about other people based on your preferences is what turns someone into an elitist, snob, or douche. If someone doesn't paint their army, guess what? All you can tell is that they don't paint their army. They might be lazy; they might be physically impaired; they might not like painting; they might have an entirely painted army in the case and just prefer to assemble a force before painting ANY of it. You can't tell. If you think you can tell just by the fact that their are unpainted, you are a douche.

I'm uncomfortable and nervous playing strangers. That's my own personal situation. If I then say that strangers are dangerous rapists, I'm a douche (or demented).

I'm sure that it is true that some people with unpainted armies are lazy. However, you just can't make that blanket assumption by the presence of an unpainted army, unless you are a douche.

I like to buy and assemble my armies based much more on appearance and fluff than effectiveness. That means that I tend to lose, hard, when playing people with well-designed, optimized lists chosen for their effective build. Given that I don't particularly enjoy getting a butt-whupping, I tend to seek out other gamers who also don't create 'killer' lists. I don't assume, however, that the person with a well-constructed list is a jerk, or an egotist, or trying to prove something. I have my preferences, and I act on my preferences, but I don't make prejudicial assumptions about people based on my preferences. That is being a douche.






Also, life isn't perfect. I'd enjoy the game most if both armies were painted to a high standard, the terrain was modeled and painted well, my army and my opponent's army were both well-designed and well-constructed, and my opponent was an attractive, flirtatious lady who brought barbecue to the game. Sadly, I'm not going to get many games like that (so far, none). Having preferences and standard, even demanding preferences and standards, is totally acceptable, but it also might mean that you miss out on a game/person that might be worthwhile (I'm willing to lower my standards for an attractive lady gamer---she can have an unpainted army, and could even just bring burgers







If you are someone who feels they can look down, criticize, or dislike people who don't paint their models because they aren't participating completely in 'the hobby', think about this:

All around you, any where you go, there could be other people who don't participate completely in 'the hobby'. Those strange and unlikable people buy, assemble and paint models, but never play games with them. You'll never see them at the gaming table! How will you know to look down on them? How will you know who you should shun and hate? Maybe you should avoid associating with anyone in case they are a hidden incomplete hobbyist!

Kaldor wrote:

helium42 wrote:How exactly do you come to the conclusion that people who choose not to paint their armies have a self-entitled attitude? :facepalm.

People can choose to do whatever they want with their 'armies' And I use the term loosely, because I want to cover not just painting, but proxying and counts-as.

But the instant they get indignant and self-righteous because someone else doesn't want to play against them because of their choice to field a crap army, they become self entitled.

This doesn't just apply to painting, it applies to everything. Don't waste your time playing against armies/gamers that you don't want to.

Once again, your "reasoning" means exactly the same thing in reverse. The instant people get indignant and self-righteous because they won't play against a non-painted army, they become self-entitled.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:Well, you are expected to paint your army as part of the hobby.

No, I'm not.

Painting is a key part of it and contributes to its overall success.

No, it's not.

I would say a 3 colour minimum is the least anyone should be prepared to adhere to. It's part of the hobby and if you just see fit to remove what you don't like then it's no longer 40k, it's just a bunch of unfinished GW miniatures being pushed around on a table.

Show me where the rulebook states that painting is a required part of 40k. Oh yeah, you can't...

No one but an ***hole is going to give you stick for not being a good painter, but you are going to ruin the experience for a lot of players that do put the effort into painting their armies.

Actually, in my experience, very few people actually speak out about non-painted armies. Also, very few people feel their experience is ruined by playing against a non-painted army.

It's not just about you and your preference, it's about others who also participate, put the effort in where you do not, and I might add, are the very same people who you also depend on to enjoy it yourself.

It's not just about your preference either Einstein. Here's an idea. If your game experience is ruined by playing against an unpainted army, don't play against unpainted armies. You won't offend anybody by choosing not to play them. You will offend them though, when you try to force your idea of what it is to game on them. Crying about unpainted armies on this forum isn't going to change the minds of those who enjoy the game but not the painting experience.

It's not just about your preference either Einstein. Here's an idea. If your game experience is ruined by playing against an unpainted army, don't play against unpainted armies. You won't offend anybody by choosing not to play them. You will offend them though, when you try to force your idea of what it is to game on them. Crying about unpainted armies on this forum isn't going to change the minds of those who enjoy the game but not the painting experience.

But there is a part there that applies to the "non-painters" and their champions, you shouldn't try and force your ideas on others. Its a pretty up system with free speech. I don't game with idiots, bigots, and so forth because the game isn't the real reason I'm on the store. I'm there to hang out with people, make new friends and so forth. The game itself is secondary. Although I will agree that the "Must Paint Army" need to relax on the issue and stop trying to force their ideals as well. This is a conversation best over a few shots and a few beers for those who can drink.

edit to fix quotes

Is it just me but are there a lot of nonpainters getting Pissy about the way people word things. I read the people saying you should paint as just that. However it feels like some people are getting hostile about nothing.

Unless its a tournament, I won't play a completely unpainted army.** I will play a half painted army as long as its not the same half painted army I saw for the past 6 months. I don't mind proxies, especially if your testing out a model and your force is completely painted (shows me your investment is more than just monetary and you want to ensure its worth it).

Why don't I play unpainted armies? I put time and effort into mine over months. Grey armies could do the same, but more often then not it's the kind of player I dislike playing. Is this everyone? By all means no. But in my mind, you have to prove your worth playing before I play you and having a fully painted army is one big step toward this proof. This is because while I enjoy playing, I only enjoy playing a certain kind of player.

**I will play unpainted armies if they my gf or a friend learning how to play. Or if it's someone I already know trying out his new army. In these cases I already know the person I'm playing and they've proven their worth over the course of time.

If this makes me a paint snob so be it. I'm a geek. I'm a nerd. I'm a hobbyist. I'm a Old school juggalo. I'm a gamer. Don't like it? Oh well.

helium42 wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:Well, you are expected to paint your army as part of the hobby.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

Painting is a key part of it and contributes to its overall success.

No, it's not.

Yes, it does.

I would say a 3 colour minimum is the least anyone should be prepared to adhere to. It's part of the hobby and if you just see fit to remove what you don't like then it's no longer 40k, it's just a bunch of unfinished GW miniatures being pushed around on a table.

Show me where the rulebook states that painting is a required part of 40k. Oh yeah, you can't...

You're right, there's no exact quote telling you to paint your miniatures.

There is, however, an entire section devoted to painting miniatures. In fact, you'll find such a section in most mainstream miniatures rulebooks.

Now, you do something for me. Go and find me a picture in any 40k book that shows a game being played or miniatures being shown (excluding miniatures are in the process of being painted) that has one, single unpainted miniature.

I bet you can't.

And you know what? From seeing this thread, I give up. If wanting to play with and against painted miniatures makes me a snob, so be it. If offering to paint my friend's miniatures so I can do so makes me elitist, then that's what I am. If holding the hobby to a higher standard makes me a jerk, hey, then I guess I'm that too.

And as I agree with the nonpainters apparently getting very technical with how people word things, I'll add a disclaimer: if you are physically unable to paint, as in Curran's case, or mentally unift, then that's completely acceptable. In fact, I'd probably help to paint your models if you were blind, or had one army, or the attention span of a small rodent.

I have a friend who prefers painting and modeling but rarely plays. Since he is not into all parts of the hobby is he less deserving? No.

I prefer to play compared to paint and I don't care if any armies are painted.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:No one but an ***hole is going to give you stick for not being a good painter, but you are going to ruin the experience for a lot of players that do put the effort into painting their armies.

Hyperbole, much?

If your gaming experience is being 'ruined' by unainted armies, you're possibly investing a little too much into the hobby.

It's not just about you and your preference, it's about others who also participate, put the effort in where you do not, and I might add, are the very same people who you also depend on to enjoy it yourself.

Ok. So why is the enjoyment of those who like painting more important than the enjoyment of those who don't?

Your enjoyment hinges on someone else doing something they want to do. Theirs hinges on just playing the game, which requires no extra effort on your part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stoupe wrote:Is it just me but are there a lot of nonpainters getting Pissy about the way people word things.

Being called lazy and self-entitled, and accused of ruining the hobby for those who are doing it the 'right' way tends to have that effect on people.