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Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

It's literally impossible to lie about this. Canon is a double edged sword. Fans demand it be consistent with their interpretations, but creators generally don't care what they interpretation is and have full power to declare anything, even contradictory things, canonical. George Lucas basically ran into the same thing in the closing years of Star Wars (though I'd say he was more vindictive and STD feels more like laziness/lets do it because it seems like a cool idea).

Really the egregious part of the statement isn't that it's a lie at all, but a rather big red flag that the guy doesn't pay any attention to fan forums. Which isn't uncommon, but I find it hard to believe that he's completely unaware of complaints about the series' fast and loose attitude with consistency while still going out of his way to make statements like this.


I would call it a lie as he and others on the show know exactly what those complaints are as they have addressed them in the past, so the fact that they are doubling down on this clear falsehood means that they are knowingly deceiving people, lying.

Still waiting for something that isn't some YouTube personalities randomly assembled self-serving conjecture on this claim.

If we're really going to start up this topic again (it went so well last time), I'm just going to point out as before that the entire narrative behind this claim appears to be nothing more than self serving hatedom, inventing an narrative to make something fans don't like more hate worthy because the real narrative is far less interesting (that the writers are just lazy).


Mignights edge has has someone who is right in the middle of it all and that knows the production staff personally, they have interviewed this person and they have come out on air and spoken in depth about it, midnights edge is very credible and states any and all conjecture in their videos, its a very good channel that does its journalistic due diligence, so if an insider comes out and whistle blows on their channel, I trust it a lot more than the bought and paid for mainstream sites, one of which is actually owned by CBS.

'm not sure how that's a lie. It's a stupid thought process, especially in the way he's trying to use it to justify a plot that started in the realm of "cringe" and has dived head first into "groan."


Because it is trying to deceive people knowingly.

Now this one is golden.

I really feel like there's this jump the shark moment here, where it becomes really obvious that everything I hate about STD, is the result of a creative team that jumps at anything that seems like a good idea, but like a bad fan fic writer never bothers to fully think through how that idea is suppose to work. Lots of good ideas just don't. They're too convoluted, too contrived, or too outside the realm of what the viewing audience actually wants/expects and STD seems to have managed to stumble into all three pit falls in a very short amount of time.


Yep this one we agree on, they have royally jumped the shark and I put it all on Klutzmans shoulders, the cast, writers etc. are doing the best they can do with lack of experience (writers) in the universe they are destroying.

That's not a lie either, though also a stupid thought process given what's already happened. I enjoy a previous comment about someone wanting to watch BSG, cause I'm trying to figure out when Starbuck is going to magically appear (season 3-4 Starbuck, the awful one who wasn't really Starbuck... or was she? Who knows the writers were probably making it up as they went) and team up with Mary Sue Not a Vulcan Vulcan Human to save the galaxy from the machines by traveling back in time to rescue some punk as kid from future assassins this story got more and more generic and I struggle to fathom why anyone would go this route with Star Trek of all properties.

It's almost like he's just shoving middle finger at all the canon complaints surrounding the series, and while a lot of those complaints are more fanon than anything, it's a pretty dick way to respond to the fanbase.


Again its knowingly deceiving people with the goal of getting them to watch, that is lying pure and simple

Not a lie either, though I think is thinking is wishful. Every piece of info that's come out about this series since it was announced has made it look more and more unappealing. It's like someone saw Star Trek Renegades and thought it was good and should be emulated somehow and that person needs to be fired immediately.

Cause Renegades was god awful and I lost all respect for Tim Russ and Walter Koeing for getting behind it like they did. Picardo gets a pass only because The Doctor was amazing.


It was supposed to start shooting already, its been delayed due to licencing issues, the licencors want the show to be closer to real trek but the show runners and bad reboot want it to be in their universe so they can get the licencing money, if they want to remain on schedule they need to resolve this very quickly and get on before they end up majorly behind schedule, so saying that Picard is going well is an out and out lie, as its currently going nowhere at all.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Getting back to the finale, I've had 4 things that have been annoying the hell out of me since Friday, all of which show up the terrible writing on the show.

1. Leeland transports to Discovery and locks himself in the briefing room to access the sphere data. Then Georgiou and weird-face security officer (you can tell the writing is bad when I can't remember the name's of most of the non-Burnham characters) desperately try to access the locked room...only for them to then confront Leeland and tell him the data isn't there all along! So why are you so desperate to get to him then? If you'd have just left him in there to get more and more frustrated you would have bought yourselves all the time you need. Also, dude transported to your ship - just transport him off it into space.

2. Photon torpedo in the Enterprise. Firstly, no the Enterprise isn't going to be destroyed. We know this. Secondly, how crappy are the weapons they're using? That's a matter/anti-matter warhead going off inside the structure of the ship. Sure it causes a big chunk of damage, but how is that not destroying the entire ship?

3. Why is everyone so concerned about Discovery's shields and damage status during the battle? Literally one episode prior to the finale they'd tried to destroy Discovery to get rid of the sphere data. Now they're trying to keep it alive. The whole reason for going back to the "jump to the future" plan was because Discovery wouldn't allow itself to be destroyed. Why does the Enterprise not have a standing order to destroy Discovery as soon as its shields drop? For that matter, we find out repairing the shields is a physical task Tilly has to perform during the battle. So couldn't they have been taken offline manually/physically to circumvent the sphere data control? Every time the diminishing shield status is announced during the battle there should be cheering!

4. Was there a logical reason Burnham had to fly out to the location for the time jump in her suit? We see her almost die when debris smacks into her so why isn't she just in the shuttle with Spock? For that matter, how do they avoid taking a torpedo to the face? I'm pretty sure a torpedo detonation somewhere near them would be pretty fatal (though maybe not - see point 2).

Some of these questions might have been answered in the show but I don't remember that being the case. Seems like in the space of 45 minutes we have a whole stream of things happening because the plot demands it rather than because they make sense.
   
Made in us
Revenant Pirate Crew






Pft, number two is easy! The ship survives because they closed that one blast door! I mean the whole point of blast doors is to protect the ship from blasts, duh!

God, there are so many problems with this episode that I just keep remember more if I think too hard. Why did Control put its Everything into Leeland so if he dies everything dies with him? Hell, how does he even “die” if hes Nanites? Control really needs to watch Gen:Lock and see how to properly utilize nanite swarms.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Formosa wrote:

Mignights edge has has someone who is right in the middle of it all and that knows the production staff personally, they have interviewed this person and they have come out on air and spoken in depth about it, midnights edge is very credible and states any and all conjecture in their videos, its a very good channel that does its journalistic due diligence, so if an insider comes out and whistle blows on their channel, I trust it a lot more than the bought and paid for mainstream sites, one of which is actually owned by CBS.


Midnight's edge *CLAIMS* to have someone who is right in the middle of it all. It's an important distinction since literally none of their predictions of doom and gloom have ever come true despite their "insider" reports of behind the scenes turmoil. Their most recent one was that Picard production was delayed because of a licensee revolt demanding everything be changed asthetically... and production started within a few days of the original timeframe stated. BTW, I say that as someone who subscribed to them (and Nerdrotic and mecharandom and others) for years.

   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General





Arstotzka

Wow, ok so I just had an epiphany the other week. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the term Mary Sue which of course came out on fanfic for Star Trek. The term can be useful but I also think its one of the most overused terms on the internet and once upon a time even went on a rant about it. However, I must admit this show seems to be based on the premise of what if we actually canonized Mary Sue herself and purposefully made a whole show about her unironically. Once you look at it like that it all kinda of makes sense. Like they really lean into here including some of the most egregious symptoms like the fact she usually has a special connection to one of the main canon characters. In this case the most main character in all of Star Trek! She Spock's frikking sister! She has special abilities: she has all the Vulcan abilities like logic, super-science and even a newly revealed Vulcan Kung Fu that apparently is a thing but still retains her humanity. Also, Mary Sues usually die a heroic but tragic death saving everyone while the rest of the characters sadly fawn over her. Check. We had that scene go on for quite a while last week. Also, the fourth major symptom Star Trek is supposed to be an ensemble show but a Mary Sue story often gets that wrong and makes it all about Mary.

Like there is no description/symptom of a Mary Sue that Burnham doesn't fit. How can a writer of Star Trek not have heard of Mary Sue? The most famous Star Trek fanfic character of all time. Literally a transcendent one. They must have but honestly I think they were like.....let's just go with that....see what that would be like...

 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Formosa wrote:
I would call it a lie as he and others on the show know exactly what those complaints are as they have addressed them in the past, so the fact that they are doubling down on this clear falsehood means that they are knowingly deceiving people, lying.


Know, when you put it like that I get it. Okay then.

Mignights edge


I've seen the videos. I find them completely nonsensical. Basic google searching shows nearly every claim to be false or a blatant misrepresentation. He can't even keep track of who owns what after the Viacom split.


It was supposed to start shooting already, its been delayed due to licencing issues, the licencors want the show to be closer to real trek but the show runners and bad reboot want it to be in their universe so they can get the licencing money, if they want to remain on schedule they need to resolve this very quickly and get on before they end up majorly behind schedule, so saying that Picard is going well is an out and out lie, as its currently going nowhere at all.


And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.

In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.

CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.

   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 LordofHats wrote:


And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.

In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.

CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.


That's not what the assertion made was. The assertion was that they submitted the previews of the uniform and ship designs to licensing partners to pitch them for toys etc and they rejected them out of hand because they were too clearly an evolution of the STD/Kelivinverse style rather than the classic Trek style, and they want to make products that actually sell. How likely the claim is to be true is another question, since as pointed out Midnight's Edge tend to make claims that aren't terribly falsifiable for us regular non-industry plebs.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 Yodhrin wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:


And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.

In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.

CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.


That's not what the assertion made was. The assertion was that they submitted the previews of the uniform and ship designs to licensing partners to pitch them for toys etc and they rejected them out of hand because they were too clearly an evolution of the STD/Kelivinverse style rather than the classic Trek style, and they want to make products that actually sell. How likely the claim is to be true is another question, since as pointed out Midnight's Edge tend to make claims that aren't terribly falsifiable for us regular non-industry plebs.


and thats kind of the problem I suppose, you either believe it or you dont, since I have been watching them for a long time I trust them to give me good information, but when they had an ex show runner on that basically explained the inner workings of STD it cemented in my mind that they were to be believed, I also like how they clearly state what is their opinion and what is conjecture based on the information, something rarely seen in todays online media.

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Yodhrin wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:


And this thing about licensing still makes no sense.

In fact when I search "Picard series delay licensing" I don't get anything about licensing issues until I find some reddit threads that seem to be talking from thin air.

CBS doesn't need a license for anything that is going on in STD or the Picard series. This claim, again, feels like something people are making up as part of hatedom.


That's not what the assertion made was. The assertion was that they submitted the previews of the uniform and ship designs to licensing partners to pitch them for toys etc and they rejected them out of hand because they were too clearly an evolution of the STD/Kelivinverse style rather than the classic Trek style, and they want to make products that actually sell. How likely the claim is to be true is another question, since as pointed out Midnight's Edge tend to make claims that aren't terribly falsifiable for us regular non-industry plebs.


Ah okay. I thought it was more of the other licensing thing.

This makes more sense actually, if only because it's come up before back when the JJ films were being produced and there was a big push for a toy line that fundamentally failed to take off. It wouldn't shock me if some morons are still trying to turn Star Trek into a merchandising franchise, ignoring that 40 year old Trekkies by and large are never going to buy much Merch and 10 year old kids probably aren't even watching STD and probably won't watch the Picard series either.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Formosa wrote:


and thats kind of the problem I suppose, you either believe it or you dont, since I have been watching them for a long time I trust them to give me good information, but when they had an ex show runner on that basically explained the inner workings of STD it cemented in my mind that they were to be believed, I also like how they clearly state what is their opinion and what is conjecture based on the information, something rarely seen in todays online media.


Are you referring to Robert Meyer Burnett?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:

This makes more sense actually, if only because it's come up before back when the JJ films were being produced and there was a big push for a toy line that fundamentally failed to take off. It wouldn't shock me if some morons are still trying to turn Star Trek into a merchandising franchise, ignoring that 40 year old Trekkies by and large are never going to buy much Merch and 10 year old kids probably aren't even watching STD and probably won't watch the Picard series either.


I don't know where you live in but trekkies everywhere I've lived across the US love buying classic merchandise. T-shirts, props, models, posters, toys (whether little ships like clix or action figures), magazines, books, comics, tchotckies, etc... you name it. Whether or not they're buying anything from STD or the jjverse is a whole other story though... I don't see myself ever spending a penny of anything from the DISCOverse personally; my most recent classic trek merch over the past year include a couple dozen clix, a couple RPG books, two eaglemoss models (with 3 more hopefully soon if they ever get in stock at the same time), a small resin ship (probably unlicensed but still technically trek), a keychain, and two books. YMMV.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/25 00:57:58


   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 warboss wrote:

I don't know where you live in but trekkies everywhere I've lived across the US love buying classic merchandise. T-shirts, props, models, posters, toys (whether little ships like clix or action figures), magazines, books, comics, tchotckies, etc... you name it. Whether or not they're buying anything from STD or the jjverse is a whole other story though... I don't see myself ever spending a penny of anything from the DISCOverse personally; my most recent classic trek merch over the past year include a couple dozen clix, a couple RPG books, two eaglemoss models (with 3 more hopefully soon if they ever get in stock at the same time), a small resin ship (probably unlicensed but still technically trek), a keychain, and two books. YMMV.


The die hard will buy lots of stuff. No argument.

But merchandising empires aren't built on the small subset of fans who will buy anything.

They're built on the general fan buying things, and the general Star Trek fan is too old to be interest in anything more than casual stuff like a t-shirt.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

Are you referring to Robert Meyer Burnett?


Is that his name? I am so bad with names.


I don't know where you live in but trekkies everywhere I've lived across the US love buying classic merchandise. T-shirts, props, models, posters, toys (whether little ships like clix or action figures), magazines, books, comics, tchotckies, etc... you name it. Whether or not they're buying anything from STD or the jjverse is a whole other story though... I don't see myself ever spending a penny of anything from the DISCOverse personally; my most recent classic trek merch over the past year include a couple dozen clix, a couple RPG books, two eaglemoss models (with 3 more hopefully soon if they ever get in stock at the same time), a small resin ship (probably unlicensed but still technically trek), a keychain, and two books. YMMV


Someone else pointed out that Attack wing has zero STD ships which is surprising, the only place I have seen STD make an impact is Star Trek Online where they seem to be making a spin off for it.

I suppose the question is, would I buy any STD merch, no, quite likely not, the "ships" they released would have to be above and beyond in quality for me to purchase them.


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Formosa wrote:
Are you referring to Robert Meyer Burnett?


Is that his name? I am so bad with names.


If it's the eloquent older grey haired guy who is personally knowledgable about the movie business who runs his own podcast channel but occasionally gets on Midnight's Edge as a guest, it is. I was just asking as you said he is a former showrunner. It's pedantic but he's an editior and director by trade but I don't believe he's ever mentioned being a former showrunner (which typically comes from the writing side in the hollywood matrix of professions).




Someone else pointed out that Attack wing has zero STD ships which is surprising, the only place I have seen STD make an impact is Star Trek Online where they seem to be making a spin off for it.

I suppose the question is, would I buy any STD merch, no, quite likely not, the "ships" they released would have to be above and beyond in quality for me to purchase them.



In regards to Attack wing, I think it's been a while since they came out with *ANY* new ships as, at least when I last checked, their last few years worth of releases have been repaints of previous models. The last new one that I saw was the JJverse Enterprise and D7 but I can't say for certain that they didn't come out back in 2009 with the movie as some other release like a boardgame or some other prepaint. That said, I don't think they've announced any STD ships to my knowledge although I only follow them peripherally and don't actually play the game.

   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

To be honest, the battle illustrated perfectly that drones and fighters were completely ineffective. Both Enterprise and Discovery remained intact despite being massively outnumbered; clearly the drones didn't work very well at all. That could be a good reason for why drones (no, not the Borg drones, silly!) aren't a thing later in the timeline.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






 Formosa wrote:
Well another bad episode over and leaving a worrying thought in my head, Burnham possibly being in the Picard series :(

This episode is pure filler people so skip it if you want.


I fear that what most Trek fans want died on the cross 17 years ago when "Endgame" aired and Voyager ceased production.

You know I've been watching DS9 again, and I sat down last night with the episode entitled "His Way." It's the episode where Odo finally gets Kira. Way back when it first aired a lot of fans revolted against it. But, as I watch it now, it's one of the more powerful episodes in the entire franchise.

And you know what didn't happen in that episode?

There were no photon torpedoes.
There where no phasers.
No Romulans.
No Klingons.
No Warp chases.
No Alien take overs.
No OmG TeH UnIvErSe is Gunna splode!

It was two people and a hologram making a journey complete that started in "Children of Time" TWO seasons earlier.

I'm convinced that the caliber of writers that existed for this show in the 90s are extinct dinosaurs. We're probably never going to have that level of story telling, character creation and growth ever again.
   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.

The problem with Trek now is the same as it's been for ages - the wrong people are in charge. Until that changes, Trek will keep being randy drrrRRRRAAAHHHHmmmah action schlock because that's the only thing executives with no particular fondness for sci-fi and warbling buffoons like Kurtzman are capable of producing.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.

The problem with Trek now is the same as it's been for ages - the wrong people are in charge. Until that changes, Trek will keep being randy drrrRRRRAAAHHHHmmmah action schlock because that's the only thing executives with no particular fondness for sci-fi and warbling buffoons like Kurtzman are capable of producing.


Well, you may be right.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.


Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 LordofHats wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.


Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.


Aint that the truth, we do get lucky sometimes and get some good films and series, but they are so rare, a very good example of this is Sense8, Stazynski took SJW culture and tropes and actually made a damn good show with a strong script and great characters, STD took the same tropes and culture and made an utter crap show, which is doubly bad as Trek has always had that kind of thing in it and has usually done a damn good job at social commentary, even if its a bit on the nose sometimes with the half black and white aliens (great episode).

There is so much to trek that they got wrong with STD and thats the saddest thing for me, I watch it for that bright and hopeful future, even DS9 oozed that theme but compromises had to be made to maintain that future, so it felt more real, STD has turned TOS into a dystopian future... how messed up is that? its literally broken TOS by forcing starfleet and the federation to regress technologically and culturally due to the Klingon war and Control, not to mention a sanctioned section 31 as the Federation intel service.... the ramifications of this secret police force are huge, to such an extent that I very much doubt that the writers understand how badly it mangles the federations ideals.

   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator






 Formosa wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.


Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.


Aint that the truth, we do get lucky sometimes and get some good films and series, but they are so rare, a very good example of this is Sense8, Stazynski took SJW culture and tropes and actually made a damn good show with a strong script and great characters, STD took the same tropes and culture and made an utter crap show, which is doubly bad as Trek has always had that kind of thing in it and has usually done a damn good job at social commentary, even if its a bit on the nose sometimes with the half black and white aliens (great episode).

There is so much to trek that they got wrong with STD and thats the saddest thing for me, I watch it for that bright and hopeful future, even DS9 oozed that theme but compromises had to be made to maintain that future, so it felt more real, STD has turned TOS into a dystopian future... how messed up is that? its literally broken TOS by forcing starfleet and the federation to regress technologically and culturally due to the Klingon war and Control, not to mention a sanctioned section 31 as the Federation intel service.... the ramifications of this secret police force are huge, to such an extent that I very much doubt that the writers understand how badly it mangles the federations ideals.


Section 31 was unique in DS9 because they'd never been heard from before. Now, apparently they're everywhere doing whatever they want when they want.
   
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Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 LordofHats wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.


Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.


Let's not get too kids-these-days. DS9 and Voyager had their fair share of stinker scripts, and big dumb action movies have existed for as long as special effects have.

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
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Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

Oh to be sure. Voyager holds the distinction of the only Star Trek series to ever retcon an episode out of existence (Threshold). No tears were shed.

I think I've said before that Section 31 was a cool idea that very rapidly wore out it's welcome. They worked in DS9, but DS9 used them sparingly which was the smart thing to do.

   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

For all I despise their invention, DS9 also had the sense to never quite come down definitively on whether "Section 31" was really all Sloane claimed it was, a subsequent show could have quite easily framed them as a recent rogue Starfleet Intelligence op gone wrong. Then they went and shat their pants by including them in Enterprise(apparently they've been wearing those daft shiny black suits for centuries as well...). And now Discovery has just started running around screeching and throwing gak at the walls, and they have their own fleet and special super sekrit combadges and half of Starfleet seems to know they exist.

Ugh. Just imagine if there were actual Trek people in charge of the franchise - we could have had a series(probably one or two seasons only) set in the wake of the Dominon War featuring a Starfleet Intelligence unit tasked with bringing down the remnants of 31, and used it to explore how Starfleet comes to terms with, moves past, and even if I had my way repudiates to a great extent what they became and how they acted during the war. A counterpoint to Sisko's "I CAN live with it", a whole series that says "damnit, no, you shouldn't be able to live with it, we're meant to be better than that". And then that done, you could have a show post-war, post-Voyager, that gets back to the show's roots - either have the Federation's first proper post-treaty explorations of the Gamma Quadrant, or maybe adapt(loosely) the Full Circle novels where a fleet of experimental slipstream ships go out to the Delta Quadrant to retrace Voyager's route but do proper exploring this time, or any number of other things.

Sigh.

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 Elemental wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.


Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.


Let's not get too kids-these-days. DS9 and Voyager had their fair share of stinker scripts, and big dumb action movies have existed for as long as special effects have.

Agreed Voyager had very many awful episodes - lets have a entire episode set in a boxing ring......yeah no.

DS9 i really enjoy but it also had poor episodes as did Next Gen (many more terrible eps) and OS. Enterprise had plenty too - especially the series ender.

If they had done Section 31 as they had been in DS9 - could have been interesting, covert ops doing stuff that needs doing (see Special Circumstances in the Culture Uinverse) but the writters in Season 2 just have no concept of subtle. They should have been in plain clothes or a different uniform very time a character was seen - does MI6 or the CIA have day to day uniforms?

Have the Empress (I assume she is chrage now) scheme and ploy her way to the top rather than become just another fawning pawn of Burnham.

I think they problem with Disco season 2 was the overwhelming obession with one character and the universe revolving around her. Also as the series went on, it just got more and more sloppy and poorly written. Scenes had little or no connection to each other, characters within scenes often made no sense by their presence (deeply irriating Tedious Tilly) or their absence.

They didn't even go for flat out action - it wa just a salvish biopic on part of the life of the God Michael Burnham

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 08:09:29


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 Yodhrin wrote:

Ugh. Just imagine if there were actual Trek people in charge of the franchise - we could have had a series(probably one or two seasons only) set in the wake of the Dominon War featuring a Starfleet Intelligence unit tasked with bringing down the remnants of 31, and used it to explore how Starfleet comes to terms with, moves past, and even if I had my way repudiates to a great extent what they became and how they acted during the war. A counterpoint to Sisko's "I CAN live with it", a whole series that says "damnit, no, you shouldn't be able to live with it, we're meant to be better than that". And then that done, you could have a show post-war, post-Voyager, that gets back to the show's roots - either have the Federation's first proper post-treaty explorations of the Gamma Quadrant, or maybe adapt(loosely) the Full Circle novels where a fleet of experimental slipstream ships go out to the Delta Quadrant to retrace Voyager's route but do proper exploring this time, or any number of other things.

Sigh.


That would have been amazing.

I was so hopeful at the end of Disco, I thought Burnam was gone and we would now follow Pike and crew. The news that there will be more Disco has been quite disappointing.

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 Togusa wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
I don't think that's true, that calibre of writers is still around, they're just not employed by two-bit hacks like Kurtzman.


Honestly I think this sentiment could be expanded to the entire entertainment industry in a lot of ways. Lots of it is brainless, poorly thought out, spectacle. And truly, audiences eat it up. Just look at the Transformers film franchise.


Aint that the truth, we do get lucky sometimes and get some good films and series, but they are so rare, a very good example of this is Sense8, Stazynski took SJW culture and tropes and actually made a damn good show with a strong script and great characters, STD took the same tropes and culture and made an utter crap show, which is doubly bad as Trek has always had that kind of thing in it and has usually done a damn good job at social commentary, even if its a bit on the nose sometimes with the half black and white aliens (great episode).

There is so much to trek that they got wrong with STD and thats the saddest thing for me, I watch it for that bright and hopeful future, even DS9 oozed that theme but compromises had to be made to maintain that future, so it felt more real, STD has turned TOS into a dystopian future... how messed up is that? its literally broken TOS by forcing starfleet and the federation to regress technologically and culturally due to the Klingon war and Control, not to mention a sanctioned section 31 as the Federation intel service.... the ramifications of this secret police force are huge, to such an extent that I very much doubt that the writers understand how badly it mangles the federations ideals.


Section 31 was unique in DS9 because they'd never been heard from before. Now, apparently they're everywhere doing whatever they want when they want.


Ya, like they have their own fleet. Even in Star Trek into Darkness they still had to keep their Super Dreadnought on the down low. And then that Tyler guy is just walking around in a Starfleet uniform even though he's a completely out in the open Section 31 agent. Also, for a while there Pike was taking orders from Leland. Like no Starfleet Captain is beholden to take orders from anyone in Section 31. They're not even officially sanctioned organization. Starfleet Captains are only obligated to follow the orders of Burnham.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yodhrin wrote:
For all I despise their invention, DS9 also had the sense to never quite come down definitively on whether "Section 31" was really all Sloane claimed it was, a subsequent show could have quite easily framed them as a recent rogue Starfleet Intelligence op gone wrong. Then they went and shat their pants by including them in Enterprise(apparently they've been wearing those daft shiny black suits for centuries as well...). And now Discovery has just started running around screeching and throwing gak at the walls, and they have their own fleet and special super sekrit combadges and half of Starfleet seems to know they exist.

Ugh. Just imagine if there were actual Trek people in charge of the franchise - we could have had a series(probably one or two seasons only) set in the wake of the Dominon War featuring a Starfleet Intelligence unit tasked with bringing down the remnants of 31, and used it to explore how Starfleet comes to terms with, moves past, and even if I had my way repudiates to a great extent what they became and how they acted during the war. A counterpoint to Sisko's "I CAN live with it", a whole series that says "damnit, no, you shouldn't be able to live with it, we're meant to be better than that". And then that done, you could have a show post-war, post-Voyager, that gets back to the show's roots - either have the Federation's first proper post-treaty explorations of the Gamma Quadrant, or maybe adapt(loosely) the Full Circle novels where a fleet of experimental slipstream ships go out to the Delta Quadrant to retrace Voyager's route but do proper exploring this time, or any number of other things.

Sigh.


Yes! That is exactly what I wanted for a new Trek show. Normal Trekking with an overarching storyline about the battle between the Federation's idealism and Section 31's pragmatism with the former winning in the end (this is Star Trek isn't it?).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 15:38:12


 
   
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I'm going to think of it as "when Starfleet feels the need to do something shady/out of the ordinary, it calls it Section 31" with no continuity between different iterations.
   
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The upcoming Picard show will be on Amazon Prime outside of North America. Lol, yet again those of us in the US are screwed the hardest by CBS All Access. I have a subscription to both Netflix and Amazon Prime but I'd either have to buy VPN access or CBS All Access to watch. It's a good thing that I'm not particularly keen on STD so can wait till Picard is over to binge both during a free week preview.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/05/13/star-trek-picard-coming-to-amazon-video-outside-us-and-canada

   
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Council of 13 Runner Up






Was just about to post that myself

Ah well, that's another nail in Netflix's coffin for me. With Disney+, it's pretty much just Disco I'm watching Netflix for. And that's one I'm happy to wait until I can binge.

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So apparently the new series will simply be call Star Trek: Picard.


I kind of simply "bleh"-ed at this news and then I saw that they hit one of my secret wishes and made it a reality. Alison Pill will be on the show. Long as she doesn't get offed and gets a chance to flex her acting muscles, I may have just been sweet talked into getting All Access.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
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