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Voss wrote:


Intercessors and hellblasters already soared past that point. Someone assembling them can obviously work through the differences, but someone on the other side of a table is often just going to ask.

If, when Codex SM gets redone again, GW condenses bolt weapon variation down to the point that their Ranged Weapons table is down to 3 pages rather than 4 and a half pages, I'll throw them a little party.

It's particularly galling since basic bolters have had tons of variations of scopes magazines and clips (and also basic frames, furniture and stocks) over the years, so using that as excuse for different profiles is absolutely nonsensical.

Oh yes, I fully agree, I wish they would condense them. Having different variants made slightly more sense at the beginning, when there were very few differnt primaris units, but now than there are loads of them, with bolt, carbines, bolt rifles, heavy bolts rifles, etc, it is bizarre to have such detailed differentiation.

GW's pushing to see how much they can get away with in pricing (and probably get some new executive contracts). So we've got false claims about rules in Pariah Nexus, false pictures showing you content you don't get in the Killzones... and absurd prices on all of them.

People don't like to hear this, but as far as GW is concerned, expansions to existing, successful lines are pure pay-pig territory. This is why Warcry Catacombs shocked people, a little less content but costing 40 more dollars, it's because it's a big box expansion for Warcry. They already cleared out every GW customer who doesn't like low value with the $170 core box. From there you just pump it as far as you can go.

Kill Team customers who don't want to spend a lot of money for poor value products are already playing the game with models they own, and probably have owned for years and years. So there's no point in selling anything to them now. They've already got terrain, or if they didn't they just went and bought $200 worth of MDF terrain which is enough to cover and 8' x 4' board. Same thing with Primaris Marines, the majority of low-impulse buyers went, "I've already got marines, thanks," it's the people who are prepared to pay whatever they can afford for any level of value that are left over for GW to sell to. Everybody else stocked up on Dark Imperium or Indomitus sets if they wanted any, and then walked away from the table.

We'll see how post-COVID profit losses change things, but right now GW is a company that sells high priced intro box sets for "everybody", followed up by absurdly priced boxed sets for people who can stomach it.

And it's nutty, because surely the whole point of Kill Team is it's the gateway game to get people in to the ecosystem so you can start selling them the big stuff?

Billicus wrote:
And it's nutty, because surely the whole point of Kill Team is it's the gateway game to get people in to the ecosystem so you can start selling them the big stuff

no, gateway is 40k Patrol & Crusade
KT is there to keep people inside the GW eco-system who have enough from 40k but still want to play with those models and prevent them from wandering off (so they might return when the new Codex for their faction hits the shelf)
or don't want to spend several hundreds to get a full 40k army and still feel they get away with a budget buy paying the KT prices for the boxes (which is kind of true as spending 300 for KT is still less than the 1000 a new Guard Army will cost)

Not really. I've got a friend who loves the lore and wants to get models to try for kill team. It does appeal to people who don't want to spend a ton of money or devote too much time into playing 40k officially

feth me, the difference between gun profiles for the new Space Marines™ New Bigger™ Big Marines™ is the magazine you model on them? Like, we were already pushing the point of ridiculous with all the different Big Marines™ bolter profiles, but like, come on...

Voss wrote:


Intercessors and hellblasters already soared past that point. Someone assembling them can obviously work through the differences, but someone on the other side of a table is often just going to ask.

Hellblasters weapons are really easy to tell, one connected to a huge backpack, and one didn't. Different mag type might require a double check, but huge backpack and big cable and you can't tell them apart? that's a bit over-exaggerate

Chopstick wrote:


Hellblasters weapons are really easy to tell, one connect to a huge backpack, and one didn't.

Helblasters have three weapons.

Billicus wrote:
And it's nutty, because surely the whole point of Kill Team is it's the gateway game to get people in to the ecosystem so you can start selling them the big stuff?

You can actually get into Kill Team quite affordably. Just buy the epub rulebook and get a few second hand minis for your team members. You will need to spend a bit of time and effort, but you can get started on the low-low if you're so inclined.

But seems like GW did indeed mess up this release by misadvertising it as "everything you need to get started with Kill Team". They probably realize this themselves as well, which is why the first link on their webpage points to the old KT boxed set

What pisses me off is that neither of these new books seems to be available as digital downloads.. What the actual F GW!

soviet13 wrote:

Chopstick wrote:


Hellblasters weapons are really easy to tell, one connect to a huge backpack, and one didn't.

Helblasters have three weapons.

Oh yeah, and the one with no cable but have the targeting array, that'd warrant check but you don't need to look closely to see if the gun have a huge bulge on top of it, unlike different mag type.

 GaroRobe wrote:
Not really. I've got a friend who loves the lore and wants to get models to try for kill team. It does appeal to people who don't want to spend a ton of money or devote too much time into playing 40k officially

just because there are people using it as entry game does not change that

GW wants people to start by playing 40k in Patrol size and the Crusade rules
therefore they provide the Patrol boxes which give a decent discount and let you start small and KT is not really cheaper here

GW seems to think otherwise

OK, but 9th edition with patrol and crusade has only been out for a few months, it's reasonable enough to think of Kill Team as the gateway game. I'm sure that was at least partly the intention until recently.

edited to add hah, yeah, Chopstick's found the pretty clear statement of intent there

Wow, these prices for Killzones with cut contents really are absurd. I was going to grab at least the Fronteris but now I'm getting nothing, even if it's still the best of the batch. Add on top that thanks to logistical issues it would take at least a month to get to me and I'm pretty unhappy with them now - enough that I'll be sending them a polite, yet cranky, email.

So the Killzones are $100 US, up from $80, and with less product. Fine, 3d party MDF. This looks kinda like Sector Fronteris, but is only $45 US. https://deathraydesigns.com/product/killing-grounds-the-depot/ Or I may go with their New Ceres line which is more cyberpunk. https://deathraydesigns.com/product/sushi-shack-bundle/ Or both; I'd thought the Sector Fronteris re-release might have been $90 and budgeted accordingly, so I could get both MDF sets and the sushi shack would be the bright spot in a sci-fi working class neighborhood.

GW no longer has enough value for my gaming budget.

No One Important wrote:
Wow, these prices for Killzones with cut contents really are absurd.

Ditto. I love how multipart eradicators/eliminators/bladeguard look, and would buy 15 of each easily, but ridiculously stupid, character-like prices did wonders to my self restraint and I grabbed big fat total of zero. If I want to field any in the future, I'll just buy vanguard start collecting box for cheap bodies and convert my own. Bravo GW.

I wish ETB aggressors were still a thing, I'd convert heavy intercessors, captain, and eradicators out of them, alas

 posermcbogus wrote:
feth me, the difference between gun profiles for the new Space Marines™ New Bigger™ Big Marines™ is the magazine you model on them? Like, we were already pushing the point of ridiculous with all the different Big Marines™ bolter profiles, but like, come on...

Or you can stop looking at fake lists made by trolls to rile up people who never check for themselves about primaris, and actually look, then you'd realize most of the ""bloat"" is due to squatmarines and exists purely for fluff/flavor reasons. GW could say reduce bolter/boltgun/twin bolter/combi bolter/storm bolter/hurricane bolter/[insert 5 other names] to a single profile (they all are literally identical S4 AP- Rapid Fire guns) and just give the platforms that have linked ones rule to fire it X times, but then you'd have complains in other direction - that storm bolter is totally not the same as combi-bolter and army X with guns dating to Horus Heresy is absolutely not going to use 'wrong' profile, cue threats to quit/burn army/whine on forums/etc.

Compared to this, primaris guns are all limited in amount, have distinct, very different roles, can be differentiated at a glance, and are overall vastly better both game and model design.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
So the Killzones are $100 US, up from $80, and with less product. Fine, 3d party MDF. This looks kinda like Sector Fronteris, but is only $45 US. https://deathraydesigns.com/product/killing-grounds-the-depot/ Or I may go with their New Ceres line which is more cyberpunk. https://deathraydesigns.com/product/sushi-shack-bundle/ Or both; I'd thought the Sector Fronteris re-release might have been $90 and budgeted accordingly, so I could get both MDF sets and the sushi shack would be the bright spot in a sci-fi working class neighborhood.

even going with HIPS, looks like Mantic sets are now offering double the terrain for 60 that GW has for 100
Pegasus sets now also look very attractive compared to those

even some resin terrain is now cheaper than GWs plastic

 posermcbogus wrote:
feth me, the difference between gun profiles for the new Space Marines™ New Bigger™ Big Marines™ is the magazine you model on them? Like, we were already pushing the point of ridiculous with all the different Big Marines™ bolter profiles, but like, come on...

At least it's marginally less ridiculous than Deathwatch twin boltguns being a distinct weapon for the benefit of the one solitary model which has shot selectors modeled on his bike.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
So the Killzones are $100 US, up from $80, and with less product. Fine, 3d party MDF. This looks kinda like Sector Fronteris, but is only $45 US. https://deathraydesigns.com/product/killing-grounds-the-depot/ Or I may go with their New Ceres line which is more cyberpunk. https://deathraydesigns.com/product/sushi-shack-bundle/ Or both; I'd thought the Sector Fronteris re-release might have been $90 and budgeted accordingly, so I could get both MDF sets and the sushi shack would be the bright spot in a sci-fi working class neighborhood.

GW no longer has enough value for my gaming budget.

I just happened to go looking at a discussion about getting started with Kill Team and TTCombat makes some incredible stuff. At least incredible looking stuff.

https://ttcombat.com/collections/sci-fi-gothic

If I didn't already have more 40K terrain than I had a place to store it I would totally be buying a new set of terrain from them.

This guy has pics of the new box https://www.reddit.com/r/killteam/comments/ltn37g/lgs_accidentally_gave_me_the_new_box_today_heres/

 Irbis wrote:

Or you can stop looking at fake lists made by trolls to rile up people who never check for themselves about primaris, and actually look, then you'd realize most of the ""bloat"" is due to squatmarines and exists purely for fluff/flavor reasons. GW could say reduce bolter/boltgun/twin bolter/combi bolter/storm bolter/hurricane bolter/[insert 5 other names] to a single profile (they all are literally identical S4 AP- Rapid Fire guns) and just give the platforms that have linked ones rule to fire it X times, but then you'd have complains in other direction - that storm bolter is totally not the same as combi-bolter and army X with guns dating to Horus Heresy is absolutely not going to use 'wrong' profile, cue threats to quit/burn army/whine on forums/etc.

Compared to this, primaris guns are all limited in amount, have distinct, very different roles, can be differentiated at a glance, and are overall vastly better both game and model design.

Hoo boy... I think you maybe need to cool out, friend. That's a whole lot of salt and projection for a throwaway comment about how distinguishing these minis' loadout on the tabletop might be a bit tricky.
IDK if you just really hope Geedubs is gonna notice how frantically you're whiteknighting RN, and finally call you back for a second interview, or if you work for GW and designed these, and you're feeling mad that no-one's gonna buy this dreadful boxset, but like, maybe just relax a little my guy. I'm really sorry saying Big Marines™ upset you so much.

 Irbis wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:
feth me, the difference between gun profiles for the new Space Marines™ New Bigger™ Big Marines™ is the magazine you model on them? Like, we were already pushing the point of ridiculous with all the different Big Marines™ bolter profiles, but like, come on...

Or you can stop looking at fake lists made by trolls to rile up people who never check for themselves about primaris, and actually look, then you'd realize most of the ""bloat"" is due to squatmarines and exists purely for fluff/flavor reasons.

Is that a fact, Irbis? Given poser's point was regarding bolt weaponry, let's look at the four and a half pages of ranged weapons in the current SM 'dex, using the definition of "Bolt" weapon provided on the page before it...



Proper Marines: 14 Bolt Weapons (and that's being generous by counting the four combi-weapons as individual entries)
Steroid Boys: 31 Bolt Weapons

Care to try again?

 Irbis wrote:
GW could say reduce bolter/boltgun/twin bolter/combi bolter/storm bolter/hurricane bolter/[insert 5 other names] to a single profile (they all are literally identical S4 AP- Rapid Fire guns) and just give the platforms that have linked ones rule to fire it X times, but then you'd have complains in other direction - that storm bolter is totally not the same as combi-bolter and army X with guns dating to Horus Heresy is absolutely not going to use 'wrong' profile, cue threats to quit/burn army/whine on forums/etc.

Bolter and boltgun are the same weapon, under different names, that don't have distinct profiles.

Combi-bolter, storm bolter and twin bolter do share the same profile, and could theoretically be merged - but, as we can see above, they're hardly a reason for worrying that much about weapon bloat.

Hurricane bolter makes sense as its own profile, given the higher firing rate - is cleaner to reference the profile that way than require profile and unit special rule to cover it.

@Kodos and Frankelee: Thanks for the links/heads-up. Since I'll get Stargrave when it releases in April, I'll be looking at more general purpose sci-fi. Also, I'd like to make some buildings appropriate for Firefly-type setting. Both Death Ray Designs and TTCombat have stuff that would work for that.

No One Important wrote:
Wow, these prices for Killzones with cut contents really are absurd. I was going to grab at least the Fronteris but now I'm getting nothing, even if it's still the best of the batch. Add on top that thanks to logistical issues it would take at least a month to get to me and I'm pretty unhappy with them now - enough that I'll be sending them a polite, yet cranky, email.

I know people have mentioned the contents of the terrain sets already, but this is worth highlighting. Both the Sunday preview and Saturday pre-order articles show the contents from the last time sets were released under these names, with £90+ worth of terrain:


But when you check the GW shop, the munitorum set is actually £57.50 worth for terrain plus the small game board for £60.
The Mechanicus one is similar, although those pipes are no longer available separately. Effectively only the game board is 'free'.



Not all 3rd-party sites include pictures and/or product descriptions, so beware if you've ordered from one after only seeing these articles and are much better value. Instead they're effectively just old-style 'one-click' web bundles using the same name of a product that used to be sold with a decent discount.

It's been noted that they're using the pictures of old killzones and the new killzones contain a lot less stuff.

I caved and bought a box as I wanted the heavy intercessors and captain.

I bought it at a discount with free shipping for £76, and have justified the cost by listing elements on eBay/fb for a reasonable cost.

Namely, if I can get back at least £35 to make my total outlay for the above at £40 or below, then I will have got a deal with the inevitable price of the box and character going to be pushing £60, £50ish with discount when they're sold separately, but also I'm not ripping anyone off.

Chronomancer and Flayed ones are already sold, just got the terrain, board and rules to get rid of. If anyone wants them, send me a pm.

And that's why any talk of "boycotting" GW price increases is pipe dream. They could charge $100 for 5 marines and people will be able to "justify" it.

Billicus wrote:
OK, but 9th edition with patrol and crusade has only been out for a few months, it's reasonable enough to think of Kill Team as the gateway game. I'm sure that was at least partly the intention until recently.

edited to add hah, yeah, Chopstick's found the pretty clear statement of intent there

Anyone who thinks Kill Team was not supposed to be the entry level game is either lying or just not aware of the history of the game. When the original starter for the Kill Team game was released it was very much intended as a gateway drug that then got an interesting expansion in Rogue Trader and then provided with a tournament version in Kill Team Arena.

The current box basically fails at everything Kill Team originally set out to do and is probably just GW trying to milk out the Necron and SM kits. That it doesn't have the full rulebook is even weirder as the book isn't hardcover and should be rather easy to print and chuck into a box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWBS wrote:
It's been noted that they're using the pictures of old killzones and the new killzones contain a lot less stuff.

So UK doesn't have consumer protection or did that go away when they left the EU? That's more or less lying to the consumer if true.

Go wild...

https://www.gov.uk/find-local-trading-standards-office

Although I imagine that GW Legal department will have kept them on the right side of the law.

 Eldarsif wrote:

JWBS wrote:
It's been noted that they're using the pictures of old killzones and the new killzones contain a lot less stuff.

So UK doesn't have consumer protection or did that go away when they left the EU? That's more or less lying to the consumer if true.

No. There's no consumer protection in the UK. There's no law at all in fact - the UK relied on the EU for its entire legal code. There's no lamp posts and no horses, and we also don't have the colour purple in the UK.