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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka





Karol, I started playing 40k a decade ago, I'm not expecting people to be buying 4 armies within 6 months.

Well then we are back to square one. Either get lucky and get an army which was good for the edition you play in and have fun for 2-3 years, last one edition if it is unfun or wait the symbolic 10 years, which I think in case of some factions isn't symbolic. At least if the stories about chaos being good and fun in 3.5 ed last time. And I accept it, as it is the reality. But I don't have to like it. And I think GW could be better. I mean even if they have a codex draft, how hard is it to make a new pdf with rules updates, saying okey you will not get the new game mechanics, relics, stratagems etc. But we made your psycanons do 2D or your csm now have 2W. Does it lower GW sales? no. Would it make the sales higher, I think so, but I could be wrong. Plus all my talk about player retention etc make be a bad argument. For all I know GW may want people to buy an army for an edition, and then either buy a new one or leave and never return.



Your problem seems to lie in an inability to play anything less than 2k Points, which to me is just weird. That's a community issue and GW has no control over your community.
40k has bad player retention due to numerous reasons. It's sold to parents for their kids and when the kids grow up they lose interest because it's nerdy and not cool, although hopefully, this attitude is changing. Warhammer requires a location and player base to be played which is not possible at all times. For example, when I moved away from home for a year of study, none of my friends were there and the local GW wasn't great. When I came back home for visits I'd go to my local GW for LotR club on Friday and Warlords on Saturday, sometimes I'd even go to a friend's on Sunday before heading back to college. Most importantly, life comes at you fast and you never know if you'll be working 50 hours a week with all your free time taken up by sleep or overtime. Rules being bad is close to the bottom of the list for poor player retention.


I am not sure if you understand understand what impact your description have on someone my age or younger. You maybe under estimating what 1 or 3 years is for someone who is 13-15. I started at 13, played almost all 8th, and now a year of 9th. W40k is almost 1/4th of my entire life. You really don't want to hear that 1/4th of your entire time is just a wait time for something to maybe get better, or that you have to wait another 1-3 years to have fun. Lets say my army, without the need to buy a ton of new models, becomes fun to play in 2 years. I would be 18 by then, which for me means a break for military service. If I come back at 20-21 to the game my faction may not exist, or require a full rebuy. Which then would mean that all the years prior to that, all the money, time etc spend on the game was wasted time. And that I may have just bought a new phone every year instead of saving up for CA, codex and rulebook.


I would tell someone they should go for what they think looks cool and then I would adapt myself to suit them as a beginner. Again, it's not GW's fault if your community is hostile to new starts.

It is not a question of hostile community. People just couldn't and still can't afford bad armies. When I stared in 8th, most of my games were played vs 30year old veterans with gigantic collections. They were against people from my school. And those games were very unfun, there was also no space for adjustment, because no one had more then 1700-2000pts. Plus GW points aren't very balanced anyway. 2000pts of Inari were not the same thing as 2000pts of sm army made out of know no fear and dark imperium.

For veteran players who know the game? Sure, rules matter to some of these people. For new starts with no idea? Nah chief, they just want cool models.

Well my army didn't and still doesn't have a start collecting or patrol box. And when it does come up, I don't think I will buy it. I don't like power armoured GK, and I have more then enough termintors for a 2000pts army. And all it takes to check what is good and what is bad, is to just check the internet. Only problem is with factions like GK, who didn't have a winning army posted on multiple forums, because they weren't winning much world wide at the start of 8th. Of course I didn't know that back then. I think my very first posts on this forum were about how to make GK army work, because I was really confused how unsyngeric and inefficient the army was. Took like 2 years to understand that GW is very much willing to make bad armies and not fix them. Real mind blower that was for me, and a lesson for life outside of w40k too.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





What he is saying, is that there was no reason you couldn't have asked your friends to play at 1750 against your 2000.
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





I feel like I should say I legitimately love Karol's posts. I feel like people write him off because he complains a lot but he is a perfect example of what 40k can be like for a lot of people that defenders (the US-centric ones especially) on this forum forget exist. He has a limited choice of opponents and those who do play have garbage attitude, its too expensive for him to just buy new stuff to fix his army and GWs release policies are ruining his experience of the game.

He's like the ultimate counter to people who like to say "I'm having fun so everything is fine."


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
[quote=Karol 799934 11187572 nullWell then we are back to square one. Either get lucky and get an army which was good for the edition you play in and have fun for 2-3 years, last one edition if it is unfun or wait the symbolic 10 years, which I think in case of some factions isn't symbolic. At least if the stories about chaos being good and fun in 3.5 ed last time. And I accept it, as it is the reality. But I don't have to like it. And I think GW could be better. I mean even if they have a codex draft, how hard is it to make a new pdf with rules updates, saying okey you will not get the new game mechanics, relics, stratagems etc. But we made your psycanons do 2D or your csm now have 2W. Does it lower GW sales? no. Would it make the sales higher, I think so, but I could be wrong. Plus all my talk about player retention etc make be a bad argument. For all I know GW may want people to buy an army for an edition, and then either buy a new one or leave and never return.

The biggest issue I'm seeing is that you don't think you have control over your hobby when you do. Grey Knights suck? Ok, how about a game against a friend where their army has to hold out for as long as possible against infinite Grey Knights. How about doing army swaps where each person swaps armies for that game. Take some initiative and be proactive about the change you want to see in your hobby.

Spoiler:
I am not sure if you understand understand what impact your description have on someone my age or younger. You maybe under estimating what 1 or 3 years is for someone who is 13-15. I started at 13, played almost all 8th, and now a year of 9th. W40k is almost 1/4th of my entire life. You really don't want to hear that 1/4th of your entire time is just a wait time for something to maybe get better, or that you have to wait another 1-3 years to have fun. Lets say my army, without the need to buy a ton of new models, becomes fun to play in 2 years. I would be 18 by then, which for me means a break for military service. If I come back at 20-21 to the game my faction may not exist, or require a full rebuy. Which then would mean that all the years prior to that, all the money, time etc spend on the game was wasted time. And that I may have just bought a new phone every year instead of saving up for CA, codex and rulebook.

You talked about rules being a main cause for bad player retention and I gave you bigger reasons.
As I said above, start taking action if your army is bad. Play different missions, point levels, literally anything except coming on here for the past year and whining about how bad Grey Knights are.

Spoiler:
It is not a question of hostile community. People just couldn't and still can't afford bad armies. When I stared in 8th, most of my games were played vs 30year old veterans with gigantic collections. They were against people from my school. And those games were very unfun, there was also no space for adjustment, because no one had more then 1700-2000pts. Plus GW points aren't very balanced anyway. 2000pts of Inari were not the same thing as 2000pts of sm army made out of know no fear and dark imperium.

Again, play different missions and for the love of Pete stop playing 2k games if they make you so miserable.

Spoiler:
Well my army didn't and still doesn't have a start collecting or patrol box. And when it does come up, I don't think I will buy it. I don't like power armoured GK, and I have more then enough termintors for a 2000pts army. And all it takes to check what is good and what is bad, is to just check the internet. Only problem is with factions like GK, who didn't have a winning army posted on multiple forums, because they weren't winning much world wide at the start of 8th. Of course I didn't know that back then. I think my very first posts on this forum were about how to make GK army work, because I was really confused how unsyngeric and inefficient the army was. Took like 2 years to understand that GW is very much willing to make bad armies and not fix them. Real mind blower that was for me, and a lesson for life outside of w40k too.

The only other piece of advice I can give you is that if 40k makes you so miserable that you find literally no joy in it then just stop doing it. All you do is come on the forum and complain about Grey Knights being bad and you never take advice from anyone. Take the advice or stop because what you are currently doing is not good for your mental health.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I don't mean to write off smaller games, but IMO you need at least 1000pts to really enjoy 40k.
At 500pts there's just too few moving parts for a game. Even at 1000 it's so-so, I get why 2000 is 'standard'.

I do sympathise with Karol's situation. I kinda feel similarly. Although I agree with those posters who say the solution is to just walk away. I hardly ever play 40k, and honestly I take every opportunity I can to replace those 40k games with another game instead.
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin







I feel like you don't know much about Karol's group. Here's the lowdown:
- super hyper competitive
- 2000pts only
- Matched play only
- printed scenarios only
- total adherence to the rules as printed
- only the most up to date rules allowed
- no proxies
- no handicap

No, there are no other groups he can play with.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/31 20:32:53



 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






No I very much understand Karol's circumstances because they complain about it all the time. If their friends who are in the hobby with them aren't willing to make changes then Karol's only remaining option if they are so miserable is to stop doing the hobby.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Central WI

I agree with the op. 8th was refreshing at the beginning. I won't play 9th. Been playing since 2nd edition and this edition is downright confusing with rules bloat, special tricks/combos, inflated prices...

I thought 8th was supposed to slow down edition releases as only codex books would change. Took an edition made by players and made it convoluted.

Thanks to 9th I'm saving a ton of cash, except for their specialist games.

IN ALAE MORTIS... On the wings of Death!! 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 455_PWR wrote:
I agree with the op. 8th was refreshing at the beginning. I won't play 9th. Been playing since 2nd edition and this edition is downright confusing with rules bloat, special tricks/combos, inflated prices...

I thought 8th was supposed to slow down edition releases as only codex books would change. Took an edition made by players and made it convoluted.

Thanks to 9th I'm saving a ton of cash, except for their specialist games.


Still feel like the problem with 8th and still with 9th is it's very bare bones approach to its core rules. It leaves little in terms of core gameplay so all the variety of gameplay has to come from the codexes. It's a lot harder to design an army codex around other codex's mechanics instead of designing it around a universal set of core rules.

It's why 8th "worked" in the beginning (imo it was and still is simplistic to the point of being unfun) because everything was set back to square one with every army working from their index. Early releases came out a bit tempered but it kept getting more unstable as power creep and rules bloat began to rapidly fester and not enough ways to make units/abilities different/varied but balanced given the tiny design space the designers left for themselves.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




The biggest issue I'm seeing is that you don't think you have control over your hobby when you do. Grey Knights suck? Ok, how about a game against a friend where their army has to hold out for as long as possible against infinite Grey Knights. How about doing army swaps where each person swaps armies for that game. Take some initiative and be proactive about the change you want to see in your hobby.

I don't have any friends, and out of the almost 20 people that started playing in 8th ed only 3 people still play, which includes me. Plus we had to change stores, because the one in our town went bankrupt durning covid.


You talked about rules being a main cause for bad player retention and I gave you bigger reasons.
As I said above, start taking action if your army is bad. Play different missions, point levels, literally anything except coming on here for the past year and whining about how bad Grey Knights are.

I really don't want to make it a me kind of a thing. I think this is a general thing for the entire w40k. Players retention seems to be bad all around the world, not just in the two stores I ever played at. And I don't see how changing points will help it either. If someone tells a knight player to play 1000pts, then they are in an even worse situation then they were before. And with most people here having army collections around 2000pts, telling someone you want to play 3k will not really work. And we play all the matched play scenarios, plus local event stuff, but I don't think that translates well to other places in the world, as tournament packs seem to always be kind of a different. There is no going around your army gives up max secondaries, because the design team decided to make abhore the witch a thing. It is like the paint thing, which doesn't affect me, not painted army, opponent with painted army gets 10VPs and as the number of new vs old players is skewed for the later, there is always more painted armies then unpainted ones . So a new player always plays with a handicap. Unless he doesn't play a game till he gets the army fully painted. But that would be kind of a wierd, you would have an army for months and never use it.

a

Again, play different missions and for the love of Pete stop playing 2k games if they make you so miserable.

I play all the missions and 2k is the standard size game. Plus how do you make people play other size games anyway? GK don't get better in smaller size games, they in fact get worse, because of the points hike in 9th, not followed by the stats changes. And to show how big the changes are in the new codex all the upgrades save for 2 do not cost points. you have to pay for both falchions if you take them right now, in the new codex, you not only get buffed stats +1W and +1A , but you also still cost less then buying the falchion now. 1750pts of GK is a horrible to play. Not as bad as imperial knights, but still bad.

The only other piece of advice I can give you is that if 40k makes you so miserable that you find literally no joy in it then just stop doing it. All you do is come on the forum and complain about Grey Knights being bad and you never take advice from anyone. Take the advice or stop because what you are currently doing is not good for your mental health.

Take what advice? they make no sense. Ask your friends to play different way. Well first you have to have friends, and second you have to expect other people to not just now. I seen people ask for rules changes, mostly people who came from holland. You get a no, unless you are good friends with the people that decide what is okey and what isn't in the meta. And I am not even local to the place I play at. I already play all the scenarios, and I tried different primars and secondaries. The problem always turned up to be opponents ability to max out secondaries, no matter what I do. And I am not going to quit the game, I paid money for the models just the way other people did. GW owns me at least 6 months of fun playing. After that maybe I will leave, but not before. And I tried to quit in 8th, all did is that I had to up my anti depressants and had problems at school.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Sim-Life wrote:


I feel like you don't know much about Karol's group. Here's the lowdown:
- super hyper competitive
- 2000pts only
- Matched play only
- printed scenarios only
- total adherence to the rules as printed
- only the most up to date rules allowed
- no proxies
- no handicap

No, there are no other groups he can play with.


He also never once did as much as buy a single model outside his original purchase to improve his army, rarely ever actually plays at all and refused offers from people willing to buy his army for what he original paid to get him out of the sunk cost problem.

Essentially he will endlessly complain about the game no matter what state GK are in unless his specific collection of models will become so OP that he can curb-stomp the hyper-competitive TFG convention that his store is.

He is as much part of the problem as his store is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/01 08:21:13


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





 Jidmah wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


I feel like you don't know much about Karol's group. Here's the lowdown:
- super hyper competitive
- 2000pts only
- Matched play only
- printed scenarios only
- total adherence to the rules as printed
- only the most up to date rules allowed
- no proxies
- no handicap

No, there are no other groups he can play with.


He also never once did as much as buy a single model outside his original purchase to improve his army, rarely ever actually plays at all and refused offers from people willing to buy his army for what he original paid to get him out of the sunk cost problem.

Essentially he will endlessly complain about the game no matter what state GK are in unless his specific collection of models will become so OP that he can curb-stomp the hyper-competitive TFG convention that his store is.

He is as much part of the problem as his store is.


When I first saw his posts, I thought he was trolling, but then I realized that no troll is this dedicated.

Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Sim-Life wrote:
I feel like I should say I legitimately love Karol's posts. I feel like people write him off because he complains a lot but he is a perfect example of what 40k can be like for a lot of people that defenders (the US-centric ones especially) on this forum forget exist. He has a limited choice of opponents and those who do play have garbage attitude, its too expensive for him to just buy new stuff to fix his army and GWs release policies are ruining his experience of the game.

He's like the ultimate counter to people who like to say "I'm having fun so everything is fine."

I feel like you don't know much about Karol's group. Here's the lowdown:
- super hyper competitive
- 2000pts only
- Matched play only
- printed scenarios only
- total adherence to the rules as printed
- only the most up to date rules allowed
- no proxies
- no handicap


No, there are no other groups he can play with.

None of these bolded problems are related to the game being played, though. If you have only a group of super competitive tryhards to interact with, most activities will be miserable.

The point about a faster release schedule I agree with.

Prices are not as clear. While I would appreciate it very much if GW sold their stuff cheaper, the reality is that each individual has to ask themselves if they can afford the hobby they want to participate in. Some have more upfront and running costs, some have less. Not every hobby is equally viable for everyone to pursue. I can't afford a horse or a race car for example. You don't see me posting on a car enthusiast forum that prices for turbochargers are too high so my car can't compete in time trial races.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





a_typical_hero wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I feel like I should say I legitimately love Karol's posts. I feel like people write him off because he complains a lot but he is a perfect example of what 40k can be like for a lot of people that defenders (the US-centric ones especially) on this forum forget exist. He has a limited choice of opponents and those who do play have garbage attitude, its too expensive for him to just buy new stuff to fix his army and GWs release policies are ruining his experience of the game.

He's like the ultimate counter to people who like to say "I'm having fun so everything is fine."

I feel like you don't know much about Karol's group. Here's the lowdown:
- super hyper competitive
- 2000pts only
- Matched play only
- printed scenarios only
- total adherence to the rules as printed
- only the most up to date rules allowed
- no proxies
- no handicap


No, there are no other groups he can play with.

None of these bolded problems are related to the game being played, though.


Good thing I never said they were. I said they were issues getting in the way of Karol enjoying the game specifically. Edit: and most of them could be rectified by GW honestly

To address the point you think I was making though, you can have fun losing a game. I've lost enough games of Warmahordes/Infinity/Malifaux to know this, but 40k just isn't a fun game. I don't remember the last time I saw anyone actively playing the game having fun. Its the people whose turn it isn't and who get to talk to friends and have a laugh that are having fun.

Also
car analogy
Want to throw in a food analogy there as well?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 13:35:36



 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Karol wrote:
The biggest issue I'm seeing is that you don't think you have control over your hobby when you do. Grey Knights suck? Ok, how about a game against a friend where their army has to hold out for as long as possible against infinite Grey Knights. How about doing army swaps where each person swaps armies for that game. Take some initiative and be proactive about the change you want to see in your hobby.

I don't have any friends, and out of the almost 20 people that started playing in 8th ed only 3 people still play, which includes me. Plus we had to change stores, because the one in our town went bankrupt durning covid.


You talked about rules being a main cause for bad player retention and I gave you bigger reasons.
As I said above, start taking action if your army is bad. Play different missions, point levels, literally anything except coming on here for the past year and whining about how bad Grey Knights are.

I really don't want to make it a me kind of a thing. I think this is a general thing for the entire w40k. Players retention seems to be bad all around the world, not just in the two stores I ever played at. And I don't see how changing points will help it either. If someone tells a knight player to play 1000pts, then they are in an even worse situation then they were before. And with most people here having army collections around 2000pts, telling someone you want to play 3k will not really work. And we play all the matched play scenarios, plus local event stuff, but I don't think that translates well to other places in the world, as tournament packs seem to always be kind of a different. There is no going around your army gives up max secondaries, because the design team decided to make abhore the witch a thing. It is like the paint thing, which doesn't affect me, not painted army, opponent with painted army gets 10VPs and as the number of new vs old players is skewed for the later, there is always more painted armies then unpainted ones . So a new player always plays with a handicap. Unless he doesn't play a game till he gets the army fully painted. But that would be kind of a wierd, you would have an army for months and never use it.

a

Again, play different missions and for the love of Pete stop playing 2k games if they make you so miserable.

I play all the missions and 2k is the standard size game. Plus how do you make people play other size games anyway? GK don't get better in smaller size games, they in fact get worse, because of the points hike in 9th, not followed by the stats changes. And to show how big the changes are in the new codex all the upgrades save for 2 do not cost points. you have to pay for both falchions if you take them right now, in the new codex, you not only get buffed stats +1W and +1A , but you also still cost less then buying the falchion now. 1750pts of GK is a horrible to play. Not as bad as imperial knights, but still bad.

The only other piece of advice I can give you is that if 40k makes you so miserable that you find literally no joy in it then just stop doing it. All you do is come on the forum and complain about Grey Knights being bad and you never take advice from anyone. Take the advice or stop because what you are currently doing is not good for your mental health.

Take what advice? they make no sense. Ask your friends to play different way. Well first you have to have friends, and second you have to expect other people to not just now. I seen people ask for rules changes, mostly people who came from holland. You get a no, unless you are good friends with the people that decide what is okey and what isn't in the meta. And I am not even local to the place I play at. I already play all the scenarios, and I tried different primars and secondaries. The problem always turned up to be opponents ability to max out secondaries, no matter what I do. And I am not going to quit the game, I paid money for the models just the way other people did. GW owns me at least 6 months of fun playing. After that maybe I will leave, but not before. And I tried to quit in 8th, all did is that I had to up my anti depressants and had problems at school.


GK could get Drukhari level rules tomorrow and you still wouldn't have any fun playing in your community, lol.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






@Karol
In the nicest way possible, most of the problems you are facing are nothing to with how 40k is balanced or how expensive GW models are. Your place of hobby seems to be the most toxic and unwelcoming environment I've ever seen and honestly, I'm not surprised that only 3 people are left out of 20 if that's the kind of thing you experience. Grey Knights getting a good Codex won't change any of the issues you're having.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




 Insectum7 wrote:
The saving grace of 7th was that a lot of the armies had gobs of crazy gak to bring to the table. But it made for totally inaccessible gaming if both people weren't playing with the same level of bonkers.

Balance wise I feel like 8th was worse than current 9th in the post Marine 2.0 period, but alot of GWs trends have just really turned me off the game since then. I was looking forward to 9th, but I dislike the way it's been handled.


Agree with all of this except the note about 7th having any saving graces.


Balance-wise - we are currently in a way better spot imo than we were in 8th during Marine 2.0. I can bring my worst army in 9th and still have a better chance than I had with some of my best armies in 7th. I feel the same way when I compare 9th to 6th. Plus, we are actually finally seeing non-marine releases. What's interesting is that with 9th, as each book comes out, the internet screams and wails "OP" can't be beat, power creep, etc.

Yet, with the exception of Drukhari (which got nerfed quickly), none of the books have reached the level the internet has claimed. Maybe Admech needs a stronger FAQ? IDK - didn't read the latest FAQ. But the game actually seems remarkably balanced atm.

That said, our group did stop playing 9th. We plated a bit when it dropped (Covid took a long time to get to our corner of the world) and we got a ton of games in before a lot of other groups did. It got weird and stale very fast. We figured it was due to the old codexes. So we took a break until 9th ed books arrived. We've recently stopped again. We just don't like it, and I can't put my finger on the issue.

There are some specifics - the codexes needing so much book keeping is annoying for example. And the missions are so stale at this point. 9th feels for us like 5th did for many at the end where it's just "Oh ok - more of the same." We all have big collections and can bring a variety of things to games, but we are just bored with it.

We tried AoS last week and really enjoyed it. We may switch to that for a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 13:29:30


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Sim-Life wrote:

Good thing I never said they were. I said they were issues getting in the way of Karol enjoying the game specifically.

How are Karol's posts a counter to people saying they are having fun with 40k then, if these problems are local to Karol and his group and are unrelated to the game itself?

 Sim-Life wrote:
To address the point you think I was making though, you can have fun losing a game. I've lost enough games of Warmahordes/Infinity/Malifaux to know this, but 40k just isn't a fun game. I don't remember the last time I saw anyone actively playing the game having fun. Its the people whose turn it isn't and who get to talk to friends and have a laugh that are having fun.

Also
car analogy
Want to throw in a food analogy there as well?

I did not think you were making a point about having fun losing a game. Your point was that 40k can be bad if you have to play in an environment as Karol's and that that is a good counter to all the people who enjoy 40k. My point is that apart from the drawn out release schedule, none of the points you stated are related to 40k itself and could be a problem with any other activity, too.

I neither need toy soldiers nor a fast car to sustain my body, so I don't see where you could make a good analogy with food. Do you want to allude to that access to affordable and healthy food should be a human right, just as having access to affordable plastic kits from Games Workshop?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 13:47:25


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

 Sim-Life wrote:
40k just isn't a fun game. I don't remember the last time I saw anyone actively playing the game having fun. Its the people whose turn it isn't and who get to talk to friends and have a laugh that are having fun.

This is my experience.

Karol may have a cut-throat meta that robs them of the out-of-game aspects that make 40k enjoyable for people, 40k is just fundamentally not that fun.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well games are a bit like sports, while some requierments are unskipable. Like knowing the rules, knowing when and how they are broken and when they have to be followed to the point etc Other seem to be additional and not really mentioned in the materials GW puts out. They have a ton of pictures and guys going to tournaments and playing games. Ton of stuff about painting. Ton of stuff about lore. But no where does it say, watch out our rule sets are not that great and require you to have friends, because if you run in to strangers the game can become very unfun. Or stuff like you need a big house to play or people to be okey to have you at home. Now my knowladge about how the life of someone 20 or 30 plus is rather limited, as I was real small when my parents were that age, but I have my doubts about the viability of late 20 mid 30s guys invating a 13 year old to play a game at their home. And I litterally can't imagine how this should go the other way around, half the dudes at my old store were the same age as my mom. No way my step dad would let me waltz in with 2-3 dudes to play a game. The only place at home would be the main room and he works there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rihgu 799934 11188930 wrote:

GK could get Drukhari level rules tomorrow and you still wouldn't have any fun playing in your community, lol.

That is true. And I could end up like a guy who was one class up that started with me in 8th. His army was made out of two dark empires and 2 redemptor dreads. To makes matter worse, his choice, was Iron Hands. I don't think he got less bashed by other armies then I did in 8th. Then 2.0 came and over night he was considered a persona non grata, who should not be played, because IH are too OP. Was one of the big eye openers in my life. Because before that I thought that people waited for others to get a turn to be the best army, and that turned up to be a false assumption. I try to not think about stuff like that. It doesn't help, and it is like worrying that your mom will die on her way home or something similar, all it does it makes you take more medicin and feel crappy.

The changes are big though that is true. Free falchions make GK cost less with 2 wounds, then what they cost right now with 1. Regular nemezis swords which my dudes actually do have, turn them in to a bit worse blade guards that can teleport. Even if all the entire rule set of the codex is just a reprint of the 8th ed book with PA stuff added, this is a substential change to the army. Not sure if they are going to be DE tier, probably not, but comparing to 8th ed, the quality of playing the army is going to be huge. Although if GW gave the same blessed storm bolters to GK that dominions have, it would be a very scary army. And that it is without any rules changes, which very well may happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 14:20:56


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





a_typical_hero wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

Good thing I never said they were. I said they were issues getting in the way of Karol enjoying the game specifically.

How are Karol's posts a counter to people saying they are having fun with 40k then, if these problems are local to Karol and his group and are unrelated to the game itself?

 Sim-Life wrote:
To address the point you think I was making though, you can have fun losing a game. I've lost enough games of Warmahordes/Infinity/Malifaux to know this, but 40k just isn't a fun game. I don't remember the last time I saw anyone actively playing the game having fun. Its the people whose turn it isn't and who get to talk to friends and have a laugh that are having fun.

Also
car analogy
Want to throw in a food analogy there as well?

I did not think you were making a point about having fun losing a game. Your point was that 40k can be bad if you have to play in an environment as Karol's and that that is a good counter to all the people who enjoy 40k. My point is that apart from the drawn out release schedule, none of the points you stated are related to 40k itself and could be a problem with any other activity, too.

I neither need toy soldiers nor a fast car to sustain my body, so I don't see where you could make a good analogy with food. Do you want to allude to that access to affordable and healthy food should be a human right, just as having access to affordable plastic kits from Games Workshop?


Sorry its been a few days since these posts and I lost my train of thought on them.

Actually my point was more about how, when someone says they don't enjoy an aspect of the game people say "well why don't you try playing with other people or changing the rules" like those things are easy to do or convince people of. Karol and a lot of people don't have those luxries. Its like when I say I don't like how unfluffy the armies feel and there is too much book keeping and you say "well just play Crusade, thats fluffy". No, its just adding more book keeping and just adding more rules. It doesn't solve the problem it just tries to sweep them under the rug and work around them.

Also the car analogy thing was more that car analogies are common, as are food analogies and they're totally different situations to toy soldiers. A cheaper Space Marine won't make your army explode.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/02 16:23:19



 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Well truth be told, not all people that quit w40k before 9th in my town, quit because of the rules. The store closing was a big thing. Now I can take a 2h trip by bus to the store and then a 2,5h trip back. I don't do stuff at home, I have no social life and I go to the store when it doesn't get in the way of training or school stuff. But for some people it was not an option, for example 4 dudes live in the dorm. The have to be in it by 17 for supervised learning. There is no way they can fit 4,5h trip and a 1,5h game in to a span of time between 15 and 17. So they quit. I think they even still have their armies.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
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 Sim-Life wrote:
I feel like I should say I legitimately love Karol's posts. I feel like people write him off because he complains a lot but he is a perfect example of what 40k can be like for a lot of people that defenders (the US-centric ones especially) on this forum forget exist. He has a limited choice of opponents and those who do play have garbage attitude, its too expensive for him to just buy new stuff to fix his army and GWs release policies are ruining his experience of the game.

He's like the ultimate counter to people who like to say "I'm having fun so everything is fine."


Sure, but you could apply Karol's group's toxic attitude to essentially any activity and prove that that activity is un-fun.

Like, apply Karol's 40k community to an activity like Chess: one could argue that chess is an inherently unsafe activity and the World Chessling Federation is irresponsible and foolish for not requiring all chess players to wear jock cups because if Karol's group were playing chess they'd be constantly kicking eachother in the genitals under the table, or buying the chess sets with the heaviest pieces possible so that they could throw them at their opponent's head whenever they took a piece, so really the WCF is actively endangering peoples' lives by not having regulations for the heaviness of the chess pieces.

This is what I legitimately go to when Karol makes a complaint like 'all the players at my club model their archers as firing an arrow high up into the air so they can always draw line of sight to everything on the board' or 'all the players at my club will go out and have a smoke break for an hour and a half if they're losing the game, so that you either quit and concede or you have to keep paying hourly for table space'. ANYONE who does ANYTHING with that kind of an attitude will find a billion ways to make your life miserable.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Karol's age explains a loooooooooooooooooot.

Peer groups at that age can be, to put it kindly, extremely toxic.

If I had even played 40k or D&D or something like that at all at that age in my school, I would have been absolutely ridiculed by my "peers". Things have changed as far as what's "acceptable," but the behavior tendencies of adolescents will probably never change.

My advice to Karol is this: if you enjoy 40k just stick with it. Eventually you'll find a new peer group that's much healthier.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Quasistellar wrote:
Karol's age explains a loooooooooooooooooot.

Peer groups at that age can be, to put it kindly, extremely toxic.

If I had even played 40k or D&D or something like that at all at that age in my school, I would have been absolutely ridiculed by my "peers". Things have changed as far as what's "acceptable," but the behavior tendencies of adolescents will probably never change.

My advice to Karol is this: if you enjoy 40k just stick with it. Eventually you'll find a new peer group that's much healthier.


Well, the problem is that he's NOT playing with his peer group.
1) He's stated repeatedly that most of the kids he started with have quit - assorted reasons,
2) He doesn't really have friends.
3) Now, since his local shop closed,, he's even more of the outsider. He's that kid/guy who just shows up on occasion. This, plus being a kid, makes it pretty difficult to be accepted. Acceptance goes a long way to getting people to play the game differently.
4) is financially limited, so making changes to his army is (almost) off the table.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






ccs wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
Karol's age explains a loooooooooooooooooot.

Peer groups at that age can be, to put it kindly, extremely toxic.

If I had even played 40k or D&D or something like that at all at that age in my school, I would have been absolutely ridiculed by my "peers". Things have changed as far as what's "acceptable," but the behavior tendencies of adolescents will probably never change.

My advice to Karol is this: if you enjoy 40k just stick with it. Eventually you'll find a new peer group that's much healthier.


Well, the problem is that he's NOT playing with his peer group.
1) He's stated repeatedly that most of the kids he started with have quit - assorted reasons,
2) He doesn't really have friends.
3) Now, since his local shop closed,, he's even more of the outsider. He's that kid/guy who just shows up on occasion. This, plus being a kid, makes it pretty difficult to be accepted. Acceptance goes a long way to getting people to play the game differently.
4) is financially limited, so making changes to his army is (almost) off the table.

To be fair, some of my friends and I played like total asshats when we were 15, lol.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:

To be fair, some of my friends and I played like total asshats when we were 15, lol.


Ugg. Back when termies had 3+ 2D6 saves my buddy would roll one dice. If it was a 1 he would hit it with the second die to try and change the result. So obnoxious.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

To be fair, some of my friends and I played like total asshats when we were 15, lol.


Ugg. Back when termies had 3+ 2D6 saves my buddy would roll one dice. If it was a 1 he would hit it with the second die to try and change the result. So obnoxious.
Hahahaha! That's pretty good. My buddy would say "rolling out bad luck" and roll the dice over and over until he felt they were "ripe" or whatever. Then he would roll his real roll. We managed to get him to stop that behavior eventually . . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

To be fair, some of my friends and I played like total asshats when we were 15, lol.


Ugg. Back when termies had 3+ 2D6 saves my buddy would roll one dice. If it was a 1 he would hit it with the second die to try and change the result. So obnoxious.
Hahahaha! That's pretty good. My buddy would say "rolling out bad luck" and roll the dice over and over until he felt they were "ripe" or whatever. Then he would roll his real roll. We managed to get him to stop that behavior eventually . . .


Well, everyone knows that a fully painted army gets better rolls! ( and honestly given my garbage rolls at times and my multiple grey models I'm inclined to agree )

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
 
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