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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

ERJAK wrote:
The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.


I would not like prepainted models but is actually the biggest truth.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I've found it's less painting and more just life moving on. What's fine for some in early secondary school years becomes an issue when they hit their final years. Partners sometimes take up free time and moving away from home to another city for college or university can impact as well. Sometimes people just grow apart for one reason or another. Of course this isn't true for everyone but of the 15ish regulars that used to comprise our group only 5 do Warhammer anymore.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





ERJAK wrote:
The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.


Well I would say it is the biggest reason they don't start, but this is the hobby. Stripping that out takes a bit of the soul out, I think.

   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Prepainted models helped X-Wing, that's for sure. But the on-board model investment between X-Wing and 40K is huge (though, the collection aspect of X-Wing was much worse in their first version).

Oddly enough, I heard at my LGS (brand-spanking new as of Janguary), there has been more call for AoS than 40K. That may change as two of the bigger shops in the metro have announced that they are regressing back to masking up again, and this one doesn't feel so inclined.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





Pre-painted models also means pre-assembled models. It would kill the hobby aspect and make nearly every new army look the same. No thanks.

Apocalypse/40K: Orks, Imperial Guard, Eldar, Space Wolves, Necrons
AOS: Stormcast, Sons of Behemat (Mantic and D&D giants)
Blood Bowl: Skaven, Humans, Orcs, Goblins, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Undead, Necromantic, Khemri, Snotlings, Underworld, Vampires, Lizardmen, Chaos, Amazons, Ogres 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

There have been many who have repainted their X-Wing models.

Still it is an argument made when AT-43 was seeking to be a presence, and that game is pretty much gone.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Honestly, I don't think you'll ever build a decades-long 40K-style success out of a licensed IP like Star Wars or LoTR or some such.

Obviously, there's great money to be made with those, if you cash in on the hype. But ultimately, your company is slaved to some other company dictating what you can or cannot do creatively. What units you can add or not add, limiting your design space. Not to mention that as you are successful with your licensed IP, the licenser is gonna raise fees on contract renewals (every 3-5 years?) to cash in as well. And if you are in a lull, the fees gonna kill any and all profit really quick.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





ERJAK wrote:
The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.


Good thing then painting isn't required eh?

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




ERJAK wrote:
The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.


Sure. But there're probably more people buying GW for the painting than drop out of the game due to painting. There're probably more people buying GW for painting than actually play the games at all, period. Go check some of those instagram painting hashtags showing off the latest blends and effects and what not. That scene might not be as loud, but it's vastly bigger than the "competitive 40K" Frontline Gaming/Art of War/playing the game scene.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




That is a bit like saying that, if you go a tournament and ask there you get the anwser that playing the game is the most important thing. Of course on instangram you are going to get a lot of painters. If you asked on people on ebay, you could come to the conclusion that the most important part of w40k is selling and reselling models.

If model looks or painting the models were the thing that shaped the hobby as most crucial thing, then the sales of stuff would be more flat, there would be no shortages of top tier models or if the production is too low, there would be shortages of both good and bad models, good and bad for playing not painting. But what happens is that the models that are top tier, game wise, are always sold out. Plus while a painter may not be limited in his boxs choices, as someone who plays in a less soup friendly 9th ed, he generally will not do stuff like buying 9 attack bikes or similar stuff.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yeah I don't think pre-paints are the salvation of 40k.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I don't think pre paints can happen. Not when GW is bound on making people buy paints and paint the models, what ever they like it or not. Pre painted models would be a bit like giving a valid way to be f2p in a mobile game or have an actual chance to win in cassino.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Pre-paints makes sense maybe for small-size specialty games (Warcry etc) where the idea is you buy a box and you're good to go, but I really doubt that's a viable direction for largescale 40k/Sigmar.

Karol wrote:
I don't think pre paints can happen. Not when GW is bound on making people buy paints and paint the models, what ever they like it or not. Pre painted models would be a bit like giving a valid way to be f2p in a mobile game or have an actual chance to win in cassino.

Weeell, since the players are still buying models it isn't quite like "viable f2p"; though that is absolutely a thing that happens in many successful mobile games, since whales stop playing when the servers are empty and no one is talking about the game (ergo, having a large base of non-paying customers actually helps keep the paying customers around). A pre-painted model line would be more similar to "dolphins" in a gacha game, light spenders who maybe just drop five bucks per month on the monthly pass and nothing else.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Hmm never thought about that. That would be interesting. Here is a pre painted squad of marines, probably easiest to do, fighting vs pre painted csm in our skirmish game. If you are interested in playing with more models and something other then limited one box infantry stuff, do w40k. But those models are all unpainted. I think you have a very good idea.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

Contrast hit a good middle ground for me between pre painted and doing everything by myself.

I know I'm still doing all the work, but I get to a (for me personally) good looking battle ready result much faster than without it.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




ERJAK wrote:
The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.


I'm just not seeing it. The amount of unpainted plastic out there would seem to indicate otherwise. I can see it as a potential reason some don't start the hobby, but nearly just as many people get into it because of the painting. Heck, at our LGS, more people bought the grey plastic version of the Space Marine Action figure than the painted version. They all wanted to paint their own.

And 2000 points taking HUNDREDS of hours? Hyperbole much? There are so many tutorials out their that show different ways to get a squad done quickly that produce table top standard quality. No one with an internet connection should be spending that much time on an army unless they want to.

Now for pre-paints themselves - Worked for Rackham right? Nope. Mongoose publishing? Nope. Honestly, some of Rackham's pre-paints were even pretty decent. No one bought them, and if they did move to pre-painted miniatures, you'd see a ton of people drop out of the hobby. Likely far more than you would bring in. About the only games I can think of that had any success were the clicks games which were pretty much fads, and X-Wing. And two of the biggest reasons X-Wing had success at all were the facts that it was a Star Wars property and it was competing against the single worst edition of 40k ever. So I'm not really seeing the evidence for pre-paints.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Insectum7 wrote:

Smoke Launchers are a Stratagem. . . Like, fething why?!

It may seem like a minor point but there were multiple times in 8th where I employed a Rhino rush up the table for the sake of the mission/initiative, and many Rhinos would pop smoke to help ride out the inevitable counterfire. Something about the removal of the ability to pull a tactic like that and sticking it behind a CP cost (and for one unit only) just really rubs me the wrong way, and seems sort of indicative of larger problems.


Its part of the design philosophy though. You move the models around the table, but the tactics/strategy layer comes from cards/CPs.

Fundamentally our way of thinking doesn't fit with the modern game.

My equivalent would be 2nd ed. My mech platoon (3 chimera with troops, 3 'Russ) would roll onto the table, fire all its weapons, pop smoke, turn 2 drive through the smoke, guns blazing.

But now my strategy is meant to be move and fire models, while doing clever gotcha's with cards. I just don't think that way? But a lot of people do and indeed far prefer that to stuff limited by their model selection.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






can we just. For a quick moment take a journey. And imagine how much. Games workshop would charge. For a pre-painted, pre-assembled model.

HAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

"Ok little jimmy you may have either an xbox or 10 space marine intercessors."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Smoke Launchers are a Stratagem. . . Like, fething why?!


But now my strategy is meant to be move and fire models, while doing clever gotcha's with cards. I just don't think that way? But a lot of people do and indeed far prefer that to stuff limited by their model selection.


No one likes gotchas. I mean some people do but we call those people donkey-caves.


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






"Remember that tank can pop smoke for -1 to hit, still want to shoot it?"

Simple. I do this pretty much every game, winning through gotchas is not enjoyable at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 14:45:53


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

That's not the only gotcha, in that situation it's easy.
Sometimes you think they know about it, and they're just being bold or weighing it against another risk elsewhere.
Then it comes to say the charge phase and you're like "ah ha!" and they respond "oh gak, I didn't realise, I'd have done my whole turn differently". It's too late to rewind, but you'd soured that whole turn and potentially even the whole game and it's not really anyone being a dick, it's just the game.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




 the_scotsman wrote:
can we just. For a quick moment take a journey. And imagine how much. Games workshop would charge. For a pre-painted, pre-assembled model.

HAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

"Ok little jimmy you may have either an xbox or 10 space marine intercessors."


It's probably worse than you think. They can go two routes - All pre-paints and no more model assembly/painting at all, OR they can have something like "core units" with pre-painted options.

The things is, they go the first route, they no longer make any sales off of hobby items like paint or primer. So those sales have to be made up somehow. They will also have to completely retool. So the cost of that retooling is going to be amortized over the life of the model, but knowing GW, it will probably just be permanently rolled in. THEN you have to account for the fact that they have no more painting articles or tutorials to do. So that's a staff reduction which you might THINK saves money, but now they have a ton of content to make up for in White Dwarf because ... no hobby material .... You also then have to roll in the loss of income due to the fact that a lot of the models they currently have, have had the tooling and R&D costs paid off for years so they are largely just profit and THAT also has to be made up somewhere. So yeah - 10 marines probably would cost darn near an xbox at that point, and that's not even addressing the fact of how many legions of players would insta-quit due to them not making buildable, paintable models.

The other route - the "partial" route would mean setting up completely new tooling so you still have that cost. They go this route they aren't going to make a pre-paint and a standard version of every model, so MAYBE they gain some extra sales from people who didn't want to paint, but those people will run out of options somewhat fast. Then you have the problem that some folks will decide to paint and now the pre-paints they bought originally will never fit in.

It's a lose-lose for GW. Wasn't there even a pre-painted Lord of the Rings game that failed? Am I recalling that correctly? There were even pre-painted marines at one point IIRC ....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 14:54:24


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Or they could just cast every faction in coloured plastic.
So all Space Marines are deep blue (obviously), all chaos are red, all Orks are green, etc etc.
Thus giving colour definition to armies even without paint. They already do this with the starter.
It would require them splitting Loyalist and Chaos Space Marine vehicles, but to me it seems clear they're diversifying lines more, Death Guard even share very little if anything with their generic CSM buddies now.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




 kirotheavenger wrote:
Or they could just cast every faction in coloured plastic.
So all Space Marines are deep blue (obviously), all chaos are red, all Orks are green, etc etc.
Thus giving colour definition to armies even without paint. They already do this with the starter.
It would require them splitting Loyalist and Chaos Space Marine vehicles, but to me it seems clear they're diversifying lines more, Death Guard even share very little if anything with their generic CSM buddies now.


That's not what ERJAK is talking about though. That's not what pre-paints are ...

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






ERJAK wrote:
The comments about player retention in this thread make me chuckle. There is a clear and present barrier to player retention that is far greater than any rules bloat or faction imbalance could ever hope to account for:

Painting.

Painting is the biggest reason new players give up.

A 2000pt army with even a handful of options to swap in and out of represents dozens if not hundreds of hours of painting and that's just putting vaguely appropriate paint on plastic. Actually producing GOOD paint jobs is several hundred hours of learning before you even bother painting up your actual army.

If the game took 10 seconds to learn and the balance was so pitch perfect you could put literally ANY combination of units on the table and win AND if it was the most fun tabletop wargame ever made, all at the same time; you'd still have significant problems with player retention. Because of painting.

If the goal is to increase player retention NOTHING will go further towards achieving that goal than prepainted models.


I disagree. Building and painting your own army is all part of the allure.

What I see consistently drive players away, new and veterans, are WAAC/TFG players. These people generally have a low appreciation (or none at all) for the other aspects of the hobby (e.g. Modeling, Painting, the Lore) and are so focused on rules and competitive game play to the detriment of other players 'complete hobby experience' that it creates a toxic and discouraging environment.

Edit as to not create confusion between "competitive players" and "tournament players".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 16:34:59


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 oni wrote:


I disagree. Building and painting your own army is all part of the allure.

What I see consistently drive players away, new and veterans, are "competitive players". These people generally have a low appreciation (or none at all) for the other aspects of the hobby (e.g. Modeling, Painting, the Lore) and are so focused on rules and competitive game play to the detriment of other players 'complete hobby experience' that it creates a toxic and discouraging environment.


I've played in Tournaments on both sides of the US, I have played in Florida, NC, SC, VA, CT, RI, MA and WA. When I go to tournaments the banter among players over how cool a special model looks or how a kustom job turned out is one of my favorite parts. I have not seen "Toxic and discouraging environment" in those settings. What I have seen as discouraging is the handful of players, and I mean handful, there aren't many of them, of WAAC/TFG players who DONT play tournaments because they tend to lose and instead focus on playing Meta Net Lists in pickup games against newbies. Getting tabled while playing your fluffy Imperial Guard tank list by a Meta gamer spamming MM Attack bikes and other competitive choices isn't fun and I've sadly seen this happen to more new players than it should.

I played against one of these TFG/WAAC players who in a pickup game demanded i measure every single ork models move, in an army of 150 infantry he wanted every single movement measured and refused to let me add advance in at the same time. After round 1 I told him "Have a good one, i'm done" and walked over to play a pickup game against a new kid (about 15) with a nicely painted Salamander army, spent the next 2 hours having a great time while teaching him about the rules.




 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 Jidmah wrote:
"Remember that tank can pop smoke for -1 to hit, still want to shoot it?"

Simple. I do this pretty much every game, winning through gotchas is not enjoyable at all.


That's a very different situation from "If this unit is within 6" of this character and your unit has that keyword and I have this warlord trait and my detachment has this faction trait and I use this stratagem because they're equipped with this wargear I get to delete your unit and theres nothing you can do."


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






@SemperMortis: Yes, WAAC/TFG is a much better and clearer term. I made this edit to my post.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Agree, toxic players are much more common among store regulars looking for pick-up groups or private gaming groups than at events. The larger the event, the lower the percentage of TFG. It's that way for pretty much every kind of game.

I also can confirm what ERJAK said. Having brought dozens of players into the game, for many people painting has been a huge motivation killer, though it kind of bleeds into the "my models suck" problem.
Many people start out, work hard to get their stuff painted, play their first few games and then realize that they need to buy and paint even more models to actually be able to win. At that point having to invest all the work to paint more is more of a problem than spending additional money for most - either they quit, or the start fielding large amounts of unpainted models. And the more unpainted models there are, the less is the motivation to actually paint them all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
"Remember that tank can pop smoke for -1 to hit, still want to shoot it?"

Simple. I do this pretty much every game, winning through gotchas is not enjoyable at all.


That's a very different situation from "If this unit is within 6" of this character and your unit has that keyword and I have this warlord trait and my detachment has this faction trait and I use this stratagem because they're equipped with this wargear I get to delete your unit and theres nothing you can do."


Uh, stuff like that has been the very essence of 40k since ever. Stratagems have literally nothing to do with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 16:47:20


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Smoke Launchers are a Stratagem. . . Like, fething why?!

It may seem like a minor point but there were multiple times in 8th where I employed a Rhino rush up the table for the sake of the mission/initiative, and many Rhinos would pop smoke to help ride out the inevitable counterfire. Something about the removal of the ability to pull a tactic like that and sticking it behind a CP cost (and for one unit only) just really rubs me the wrong way, and seems sort of indicative of larger problems.


Its part of the design philosophy though. You move the models around the table, but the tactics/strategy layer comes from cards/CPs.

Fundamentally our way of thinking doesn't fit with the modern game.

My equivalent would be 2nd ed. My mech platoon (3 chimera with troops, 3 'Russ) would roll onto the table, fire all its weapons, pop smoke, turn 2 drive through the smoke, guns blazing.

But now my strategy is meant to be move and fire models, while doing clever gotcha's with cards. I just don't think that way? But a lot of people do and indeed far prefer that to stuff limited by their model selection.

The shift in philosophy has swung way to far imo. I'm fine with some "cards", but with things like the Smokescreen example it's really removing more organic tactical options and I just can't get behind the reasons for it.

And at least for this particular example, it's still limited to model selection since Smokescreen is only available on a tiny subset of units.

It might have been pretty raw at the time, but Index 8th with only the 6(?) basic Strats just felt like such a better experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
"Remember that tank can pop smoke for -1 to hit, still want to shoot it?"

Simple. I do this pretty much every game, winning through gotchas is not enjoyable at all.


That's a very different situation from "If this unit is within 6" of this character and your unit has that keyword and I have this warlord trait and my detachment has this faction trait and I use this stratagem because they're equipped with this wargear I get to delete your unit and theres nothing you can do."


Uh, stuff like that has been the very essence of 40k since ever. Stratagems have literally nothing to do with that.
I don't remember much of that in 3rd - 4th era in particular. 2nd had some wild combos but there were also more "organic" options that I felt balanced it out. Later editions of 40K are more restrained in the rules and army options so the weird combos feel more "gamey" for some reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/03 17:14:59


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
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