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Warp travel seems to work both ways. It can screw you over about 100000 ways, but it has very good tactical advantages. I think it's beneficial to the Tau that they can't warp travel. Especially cause that would imply that Tau can be corrupted by demons. Would you consider it a gain or a loss for the Tau that they can't warp travel?

Tau should get a more efficient means of space travel, but not the Warp. Having a more scientifically-based method.

Individually, it's good; on the galactic scale, however, it's such a crippling limitation that it, alone, prevents the Tau from ever becoming a major power.

The Tau method of travel has an infinitely lower chance of any given ship being eaten by Warp daemons, which I think we can all agree is a big plus. However, the impression I get from the fluff is that, with the proper precautions, the Warp is actually not terrifically dangerous to navigate; say, about as dangerous as the high seas were to 18th century sailing ships. Yes, a big storm can always blow up and wreck you, but 90+% of the time a given vessel or convoy will make their journey safely, and the advantages in terms of speed are simply too immense to give up.

Lack of Warp travel or access to the Webway means that the Tau simply can never become a galaxy-wide power like the IoM is. The big advantages are not tactical, they're strategic and logistical; the Imperium can move troops, armaments, vehicles and supplies 10,000 light-years in an average of 40 days, meaning they can link over a million worlds together into a cohesive and functional empire. The time lag isn't so bad that it UTTERLY cripples central coordination, although even as fast as it is, command and control is a big problem for them.

Without Warp travel, travel lag becomes utterly crippling before you reach even a fraction of the Imperium's scale. If it takes you a year or more to send mail from the inner worlds to the frontier, you simply cannot maintain a functional interstellar government; if the Tau somehow manage to survive and expand much longer, their empire will fragment and dissolve into many competing polities, because the sept worlds will become too isolated from each other to maintain a single, cohesive philosophy and organization. That's already started to happen, in fact, in the Farsight Enclaves. And that isn't even considering the military consequences; an empire with slower interstellar travel has to have many, many more warships per world in order to have the same defensive density and striking power as an empire with Warp travel available, because using the Warp you can concentrate your forces much more quickly, and react much faster to enemy threats or opportunities.

From a flavour standpoint, I like the Tau not having true Warp access. It helps differentiate them from some of the other powers in general and the Imperium and particular. It also impies that they remain free from Caos corruption.

From a game stand point, since the game is so tactically oriented the lack of Warp Travel is pretty much irrelevant.

From a strategic standpoint, the Tau will need to find a way around this soon or they will find themselves unable to defend their empire when they start running up against more expeditionary forces like the Tyranids, major Waaaghs and Crusades.

Both good and bad.

Good - since it keeps them from being recognized as a major enough threat and getting pulped by a full-on Imperial Crusade as well as keeping them relatively safe from the dangers of the warp

Bad - they can't really expand that well, and they're starting to get overstretched; if they expand too far, they won't be able to reinforce quickly enough to stop enemy armies

Tau bashing incoming in.....
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Ratius wrote:Tau bashing incoming in.....
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I wasn't bashing anyone...

It's good since the Imperium won't consider them more than a frontier threat, so they're relatively safe from Imperial Crusades, and combined with their lack of significant warp shadows, they're relatively safe from Chaos influence.

On the minus side, if the Empire gets too big, and they hit a major threat, for example what's happening between Farsight and that Warboss who loves looting Tau tech, by the time reinforcements arrive, well, I'm sure you get the picture...

Wasnt aimed at you Tadashi, was just a throw away comment since it was a Tau orientated thread.
Past histroy indicates no matter how benign the topic, it usualy degenerates into a Tau bashfest

Ratius wrote:Tau bashing incoming in.....
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Tau suck so badly...
Joking


They sort of have warp travel and it works for them just fine at the moment. As a small empire they don't really need to be able to traverse such large areas of space. It would only stretch their empire thin and leave them extremely vulnerable. They don't need proper warp travel yet so it makes sense they wouldn't really have it. They're probably working towards it though.

Ratius wrote:Wasnt aimed at you Tadashi, was just a throw away comment since it was a Tau orientated thread.
Past histroy indicates no matter how benign the topic, it usualy degenerates into a Tau bashfest

Sorry. Took it personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

n0t_u wrote:

Ratius wrote:Tau bashing incoming in.....
3
2
1.....

Tau suck so badly...
Joking


They sort of have warp travel and it works for them just fine at the moment. As a small empire they don't really need to be able to traverse such large areas of space. It would only stretch their empire thin and leave them extremely vulnerable. They don't need proper warp travel yet so it makes sense they wouldn't really have it. They're probably working towards it though.

Maybe not warp travel, since after the Fall of Medusa V campaign, the Ethereals stopped indefinitely all research on the warp and its applications. They might be working on non-warp FTL, but with the Inertialess Drive decanonized, that prospect isn't looking too well.

Harriticus wrote:Tau should get a more efficient means of space travel, but not the Warp. Having a more scientifically-based method.

I would have to agree with this. A few things come to mind, both from the game Sword of the Stars. Liir, a race of aquatic dolphin/whale like creatures, use "flicker drives". These engines effectively teleports the total mass of the ship in a given direction millions of times per second, they have to use this as their ships are filled with water this is the most efficient way of getting around. I think that the flicker drive would fit in pretty well in the tau fluff. The other is gate technology used by the Hivers, an insectoid race. This requires a gate ship to travel to said area, open its "gate" which effectively is a teleportation beacon. This allows other ships to teleport their way from one gate to another almost instantly. However the gate ships themselves are quite slow and fragile.

Theres plenty of cool ways to travel around the universe, the Tau are bound to figure something out sooner or later.

Don't Dark Age teleportariums and the Webway function in the same way? I mean, when you enter a Gate, you emerge in the same instant you entered, at least in the perspective of someone watching outside the Webway. Time passes normally for the traveler.

Personally I like the fact that the Tau have not solved all their tech quandries, leaves them room to improve.

If they can't plunge into the depths of the warp to travel further faster, and that becomes a vital link in their expansion, I am sure they will work towards a solution, as it stands what they have works well enough for them.

My take on their solution would be a artificial wormhole system, one where they have to set up receptors in both ends of the curcuit kinda like the Babylon 5 jump gates, and would allow them to travel quickly between colonized systems, but still have many vulnerbilities and liabilities to it, it would mean a slow initial push to a system followed by a set up time, with them much improved transit rates, safety seems to be important to the overall Tau scheme of expansion, but rapid response in its internal systems would be highly prized.

Again just stream of concious stuff here, who knows what silly concepts GW will grace us with next.

Tadashi wrote:Don't Dark Age teleportariums and the Webway function in the same way? I mean, when you enter a Gate, you emerge in the same instant you entered, at least in the perspective of someone watching outside the Webway. Time passes normally for the traveler.

While time might move differently, it isn't instantaneous, at least for the webway or the Imperial transporters. Imperial transporters are just tunneling through the warp, so for the short distances it is used it might usually be as good as instantanious, but it is still the warp, and you still risk coming out before you left or centuries after, though that is a very uncommon occurrence.

The webway...while it might have some time distortion effects, time does exist there. Commoragh exists in the webway after all, and does move forward in time with the rest of the universe.

Personally, I reckon the Tau will end up creating something like a 'poor mans' webway with a gate system of some sort, closer to Stargates wormhole travel than the intergalactic catacombs.

Likely using it to improve on the drive they have to a degree but mostly keeping their ships to the current 3-5 system range sorta thing and using the gate system to get about. otherwise.

I'm thinking if the Tau get some form of warp, or far space/low time, they might over extend themselves, and the Imperium could go take them out piecemeal.

Or they become a contender in the game show: Who's gonna rule the galaxy before the 'Nids eat everything!

King Crow wrote:Warp travel seems to work both ways. It can screw you over about 100000 ways, but it has very good tactical advantages. I think it's beneficial to the Tau that they can't warp travel. Especially cause that would imply that Tau can be corrupted by demons. Would you consider it a gain or a loss for the Tau that they can't warp travel?

Being able to warp travel isn't linked to being corruptable.

Their lack of efficient warp travel is a massive positive for the Tau, it means that they have created a sustainable empire with better interplanetary links. The IoM is massive but most of it is empty space filled with pocket empires and alien races, although they have a great supply of resources due to the sheer scale of their empire, the IoM is threatened on every concievable angle and every one of its planets can be attacked no matter what its location. The Tau however leave no gaps in their expanstion so only have to defend their external border.

The way i see it, the Tau are a small empire, but they are a very strong empire. Like bluntman said, their septs are close enough to have a very strategic advantage. I imagine it almost works like defense lines.

I think the Tau are comparable to modern day Isreal combined with ancient Rome. They have enemies all around them but they are strong enough to fight them off.

Modern Tau ships travel at roughly 1/3 (= speed of the Merchant class, the older Explorder reached only 1/5. It is unlikely that even more modern ships like the Hero or Guardian are slower than the Merchant ) of the speed that Imperial ships can reach. Given the Tau Empire's limited size this is plenty. Leaving room for improvement and having actual weaknesses is, in the time of more and more mary sue nonsense, a good thing for the tau fluff as a whole.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
My take on their solution would be a artificial wormhole system, one where they have to set up receptors in both ends of the curcuit kinda like the Babylon 5 jump gates, and would allow them to travel quickly between colonized systems, but still have many vulnerbilities and liabilities to it, it would mean a slow initial push to a system followed by a set up time, with them much improved transit rates, safety seems to be important to the overall Tau scheme of expansion, but rapid response in its internal systems would be highly prized.

So essentially like the Necrons then, without the Webway also being used?

I don't see what's so bad about the Tau not being able to overcome this difficulty, though. Why not have them as an Empire that technologically beat all other factions, but instead have to slowly expand (if they can) and form many smaller empires that have to look to their own defence, with aid from other empires being relatively long in coming.

I think they should develop a faster tech-based means of travel along the lines of what the Necrons used to have (the "Inertia-less" drives). It would solidify them as an army that was completely unreliant on any sort of warp or webway technology, would make them more unique, IMO.

They could do what they did in the jercho reach. Just launch client empires out past normal warp range. I'm thinking this would be good from a storytelling outlook.

A good thing.
I think by the time Tau need faster travel, they'll have come up with it very quickly. And like all their technology, it will be better, safer, and more efficient than the Imperial tech. For now they just need to reinforce their territory and keep improving their military tech. In a few generations, all Firewarriors could be sporting Shadowsun's XV22 battlesuit. We'll never see that in-game of course, for balance sake. But I think that's where Tau are headed.

Tadashi wrote:

Ratius wrote:Wasnt aimed at you Tadashi, was just a throw away comment since it was a Tau orientated thread.
Past histroy indicates no matter how benign the topic, it usualy degenerates into a Tau bashfest

Sorry. Took it personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

n0t_u wrote:

Ratius wrote:Tau bashing incoming in.....
3
2
1.....

Tau suck so badly...
Joking


They sort of have warp travel and it works for them just fine at the moment. As a small empire they don't really need to be able to traverse such large areas of space. It would only stretch their empire thin and leave them extremely vulnerable. They don't need proper warp travel yet so it makes sense they wouldn't really have it. They're probably working towards it though.

Maybe not warp travel, since after the Fall of Medusa V campaign, the Ethereals stopped indefinitely all research on the warp and its applications. They might be working on non-warp FTL, but with the Inertialess Drive decanonized, that prospect isn't looking too well.

The absence of inertialess Drive is the only fluff of the new necron codex that I refuse to accept. As for the Tau, I'll let my fortune cookie has its say "A ship will be safe in harbor, but that is not why ships are built"

riplikash wrote:
The webway...while it might have some time distortion effects, time does exist there. Commoragh exists in the webway after all, and does move forward in time with the rest of the universe.

What I meant was that, while time passes normally for travelers/residents inside the Webway, to anyone observing them outside the Webway, travel is instantaneous, exiting from another Webway Gate at the same moment you entered a different Webway Gate.

Archonate wrote:And like all their technology, it will be better, safer, and more efficient than the Imperial tech.

While thats a perfectly valid opinion, wording it like this probably wasn't the best thing you could have done. Its only going to spark arguments in the current atmosphere.

We should give them the inertia-less drives the necrons don't seem to have anymore.

@Berzerker, don't try to define the speed of imperial FTL, it varies by sources, with Brothers of the Snake saying it would take more than a year just to cross their local star cluster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:

riplikash wrote:
The webway...while it might have some time distortion effects, time does exist there. Commoragh exists in the webway after all, and does move forward in time with the rest of the universe.

What I meant was that, while time passes normally for travelers/residents inside the Webway, to anyone observing them outside the Webway, travel is instantaneous, exiting from another Webway Gate at the same moment you entered a different Webway Gate.

Not instantaneous, but very much slowed, so that it might as well be, except over long distances, so you are partially correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Randomonioum wrote:

Archonate wrote:And like all their technology, it will be better, safer, and more efficient than the Imperial tech.

While thats a perfectly valid opinion, wording it like this probably wasn't the best thing you could have done. Its only going to spark arguments in the current atmosphere.

And it is actually an opinion backed up very solidly, even in game with tau plasma not getting hot.

im2randomghgh wrote:We should give them the inertia-less drives the necrons don't seem to have anymore.

@Berzerker, don't try to define the speed of imperial FTL, it varies by sources, with Brothers of the Snake saying it would take more than a year just to cross their local star cluster.

Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the basic fact that whatever speed Warp travel is, Tau FTL is much, much slower. And that makes it much, much worse, especially combined with the fact that they lack any method of FTL interstellar communication such as astropaths.

If the Tau are going to develop into a genuine, large-scale threat, they will need some much faster method of travel. The speed of communication puts an upper limit on the size of an effective organization, and Tau are not immune to that.

Can someone post a quote on how much slower? I hear the 1/5 now and then, but I don't know if that's made up or if it comes from a book.

Nomotog: GW (UK), Specialist Games, Battlefleet Gothic, resources/downloads, Tau Fleets, entries for Explorer and Merchant. That's as official as official can be*.

Gets a bit more fuzzy in the official department when you go to the FW sources and the 2010 Compendium going into their newer ships. In the fairly short time from Damocles Gulf Crusade to Taros you've got a nice evolution from bag of cack cargo hauliers to slick fighting ships. And they're still evolving their naval tech (their new ships are still a bit sub-par in some ways). It's a refreshing change to see this evolution of a faction before your eyes in 40k.

Difficult to know where they are on the S-curve (low hanging fruit and all that) but I'd guess still pretty low down and extrapolate from there - their next-gen ships will be mental! and they'll have come up with an extremely efficient and safe FTL drive.

Or maybe the Eldar will let them use the Webway in dire strategic emergency?

*EDIT: Though, in the interests of objectivity, it's worth noting that this conforms to the usual GW presentation of 'fact' (subjectivity) and written as if from an IoM PoV: see the 'attempt to make a warship that could compete with a Lunar Class; they failed' thing for a ship notably better (on the TT) than the Lunar... so the usual 'xenos are rubbish!' thing.