Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

135pts

Custodian Guard: WS - 5 | BS - 4 | S - 4 | T - 4 | W - 1 | I - 4(5) | A - 2 | Ld - 10 | Sv - 3+/5+
Custodian Captain: WS - 5 | BS - 4 | S - 4 | T - 4 | W - 2 | I - 4(5) | A - 3 | Ld - 10 | Sv - 3+/5+


Unit Composition:
3 Custodian Guard

Unit Type:
Infantry

Wargear:
Guardian Spear*, Master Crafted Power Armour*, Frag and Krak Grenades, Meltabombs.

Special Rules:
And They Shall Know No Fear, Deep Strike, Combat Tactics*, Custodian Tactics*, Operatives of the Emperor*
Note: If arriving via Deep Strike, Adeptus Custodes may use/benefit from a teleporter homer.

Options:
- May include up to 2 additional Custodian Guard for 45pts each.

- A single Custodian Guard may be upgraded to a Custodian Captain for 35pts.
Who may replace his Guardian Spear and the Custodian Tactics special rule with one of the following for no additional cost:
- Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer and Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol.
- Master-Crafted Relic Blade and Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol.
- Master-Crafted Power Blades (Two Power Weapons that grant an additional attack; therefore granting a total of +2 attacks. A model equipped with power blades may not also select a Storm Shield).

- Each model may be equipped with a Storm Shield for 20pts each.

- May select a Rhino or Land Raider dedicated transport. See Codex: Space Marines for rules, points costs and options.

*Guardian Spear:
A Guardian Spear incorporates a Storm Bolter and Power Weapon that adds +1 initiative (included in profile). Furthermore, this weapon is master-crafted, allowing the Custodian to re-roll a single to-hit (ranged OR close combat) roll each turn.

*Master-Crafted Power Armour:
A model with Master-crafted Power Armour benefits from a 5+ invulnerable save (included in profile) and may re-roll a single armour save (but not invulnerable or cover save) per turn.

*Combat Tactics:
The Custodian's may choose to automatically fail any morale test they are called upon to take.

*Custodian Tactics:
At the beginning of each assault phase, each Custodian may benefit from one of the following Custodian Tactics, lasting for the duration of that assault phase:
• Thrust/Brace - Grants +1 Strength and +1 Initiative.
• Sweep/Flourish - Grants +1 attack.
• Parry/Block – All models directing their attacks at this Custodian are at -1 attacks, to a minimum of 1.

*Operatives of the Emperor:
Pre-deployment, any Custodian Guard (or Captain) may be removed from the unit and join another unit in the same army (but may not join one-man units), counting as part of that unit for the remainder of the game and for Kill Points (therefore only the original unit consisting of only Custodian Guard may sacrifice a kill point). Only one Custodian can join each unit.
Note: The Combat Tactics, And They Shall Know No Fear and Deep Strike special rules are lost if the Custodian joins a unit that doesn't also possess these rules. They may still benefit from them if they are the only remaining model from that unit however.

A single unit of Adeptus Custodes may be included as an Elites Choice in an army selected from any of the following codices: Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels.
These armies should ideally be pre-heresy themed. Otherwise if you're feeling fluff-liberal, they may also be included in a Black Templar, Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle army.


--------------

So there is my interpretation of the Adeptus Custodes under the existing 5th Edition Codices and rulebook. They're designed to follow the more recent HH/Black Library background of Custodians being marginally superior (in terms of physical capabilities) to a standard Space Marine and so are designed to the level of Veteran Space Marines, but with their added expertise with a Guardian Spear. Please avoid starting a discussion/debate about the capabilities of Custodians; this is not the place or my intentions for this thread.

If you like these rules, you may also wish to check out the Fandex's linked in my signature.

All feedback and constructive criticism is welcome, as is play-testing. Thanks!

Rules look well-balanced, I compared them to the old 3e Grey Knights and they look about right. I don't know about the most recent background on Custodians, but from what I've read they're supposed to be the people who watch over the Imperial Palace, an assault there against Imperial lines bolstered by a few units of these guys could make a fun Apocalypse game.

Cheers man, appreciated!

Well, in modern 40K the Custodes don't really do much of note, except mill about in the palace (they don't even wear their armour IIRC), but in 30K/HH they were much more proactive it seems...

not too bad for the custodes, but in all honesty they really should have a 2+ save and their guardian spear should be a relic blade with a built in master crafted bolter

Shouldn't there be a rule that represents their independent nature? I thought they fought solo and not as a team.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Shouldn't there be a rule that represents their independent nature? I thought they fought solo and not as a team.

Aside from Custodian Tactics allowing them to adopt individual 'stances' and therefore fight individually and Operatives of the Emperor allowing them to function akin to Wolf Guard and independent characters?
I'm not sure what else you expect to account for a trait that IMHO wouldn't really have a particularly significant impact in-game or in-fluff...

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:not too bad for the custodes, but in all honesty they really should have a 2+ save and their guardian spear should be a relic blade with a built in master crafted bolter

I'm not sure why you suggest a 2+ save? Custodian armour is typically described as a form of master-crafted power-armour (lexicanum supports this), whilst inferior to terminator armour (which Custodians can also use in the fluff).
Here, they may once-per turn re-roll a 3+ (which is statistically better than a 2+), but this is only once per turn and can be negated by AP3; therefore it's superior to Power Armour, but inferior to Terminator Armour.
The Relic Blade argument I can understand and was something i considered, but ultimately didn't adopt. It's less original IMHO and it makes the Custodes uncharacteristically capable against vehicles and monstrous creatures. If anything, I would argue it should confer abilities similar to a GK Halberd. Furthermore, a Relic Blade could well encourage a price increase.
Currently, a Guardian Spear - combined with Custodian Tactics (used to reflect their training, abilities and time spent training/using the Guardian Spear) - is arguably superior to a relic blade, as it allows them to adapt to a greater variety of situations but can still leave them with an identifiable weakness.
Whilst in fluff the bolter could make more sense, a Storm Bolter allows them greater manoeuvrability and to function with all units and as an assault unit in themselves.

These look priced well to me. I'd use them, but not all the time, so I guess that means you found a good balance.

Just Dave wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Shouldn't there be a rule that represents their independent nature? I thought they fought solo and not as a team.

Aside from Custodian Tactics allowing them to adopt individual 'stances' and therefore fight individually and Operatives of the Emperor allowing them to function akin to Wolf Guard and independent characters?
I'm not sure what else you expect to account for a trait that IMHO wouldn't really have a particularly significant impact in-game or in-fluff...

Derp, sorry misread that.
I thought Custodian Tactics referred to the whole squad and not each individual.
Yeah, that's perfect.

I think they should have Artificier Armour and a 5+ invuln instead of the MC power armour

junk wrote:These look priced well to me. I'd use them, but not all the time, so I guess that means you found a good balance.

Thanks man. That's pretty much exactly the kind of thing I'd like to hear (that they're balanced and good, but not too much so), short of you saying "I've used them in several games, These look priced well to me. I'd use them, but not all the time, so I guess that means you found a good balance. Also, have this huge some of money".

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Derp, sorry misread that.
I thought Custodian Tactics referred to the whole squad and not each individual.
Yeah, that's perfect.

OK, well I'm glad that's been cleared up!

DreadlordME! wrote:I think they should have Artificier Armour and a 5+ invuln instead of the MC power armour

I covered this earlier in the thread, but put succinctly, that would mean they have the same level of protection as Terminator Armour, which Custodian Armour doesn't provide...

Their force field resides in their hat; no foolin', that's actual background. You don't have to make up new fluff of their armor being so awesome that it provides an invulnerable save.

DarknessEternal wrote:Their force field resides in their hat; no foolin', that's actual background. You don't have to make up new fluff of their armor being so awesome that it provides an invulnerable save.

Lol seriously? They have a shield generator in their hats?

Just Dave wrote:

junk wrote:These look priced well to me. I'd use them, but not all the time, so I guess that means you found a good balance.

Thanks man. That's pretty much exactly the kind of thing I'd like to hear (that they're balanced and good, but not too much so), short of you saying "I've used them in several games, These look priced well to me. I'd use them, but not all the time, so I guess that means you found a good balance. Also, have this huge some of money".

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Derp, sorry misread that.
I thought Custodian Tactics referred to the whole squad and not each individual.
Yeah, that's perfect.

OK, well I'm glad that's been cleared up!

DreadlordME! wrote:I think they should have Artificier Armour and a 5+ invuln instead of the MC power armour

I covered this earlier in the thread, but put succinctly, that would mean they have the same level of protection as Terminator Armour, which Custodian Armour doesn't provide...

but they should seeing as they had the best of the best weapons and armor even for basic troops

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
but they should seeing as they had the best of the best weapons and armor even for basic troops

No, they shouldn't. The Custodians USED Terminator armor; if their basic armor was just as good, they wouldn't have done so.

The reroll a 3+ save once per turn is going to increase the amount of book-keeping for the Custodes. FNP might be the way to go to keep it simple.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Their force field resides in their hat; no foolin', that's actual background. You don't have to make up new fluff of their armor being so awesome that it provides an invulnerable save.

Lol seriously? They have a shield generator in their hats?

Yes, and their spear was las-based, not bolt.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
but they should seeing as they had the best of the best weapons and armor even for basic troops

No, they shouldn't. The Custodians USED Terminator armor; if their basic armor was just as good, they wouldn't have done so.

they used terminator armor for heavier weapons like the immolator lance and twin linked auto cannons

@DarknessEternal
that's been reconned with the HorusHeresy collected visions book, the las weapons got replaced with Bolt weapons and even the BL novels backs this up

An option for Storm Shields has been added, as one of the people(s) I feel may want to use these rules has Storm Shields on their models (image spoilered below, check it out):

DarknessEternal wrote:Their force field resides in their hat; no foolin', that's actual background. You don't have to make up new fluff of their armor being so awesome that it provides an invulnerable save.

That's irrelevant (if still true) is it not? It wouldn't affect it in-game and it would still be attributed to their armour. I've not made up any new fluff (IMO at least) really if that's what you're suggesting...

DarknessEternal wrote:Yes, and their spear was las-based, not bolt.

I think 'was' is the optimal word there; as Tyrael said, that they use bolts is included in the most recent fluff and imagery...

Gornall wrote:The reroll a 3+ save once per turn is going to increase the amount of book-keeping for the Custodes. FNP might be the way to go to keep it simple.

You may be right, however, I don't think that keeping track of a single re-roll per-turn would be hard on a unit that consists of at-most 5 models in the entire army, no? Surely no harder then Paladins/Nobs wounds for example...

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
but they should seeing as they had the best of the best weapons and armor even for basic troops

No, they shouldn't. The Custodians USED Terminator armor; if their basic armor was just as good, they wouldn't have done so.

they used terminator armor for heavier weapons like the immolator lance and twin linked auto cannons

But as I and Berzerker said, their basic armour was not as tough as Terminator Armour, whilst a 2+ (and 5++) suggests it is. Furthermore, that they are not equipped in Terminator Armour here makes it being used for heavier weaponry irrelevant...
I feel their possession of the best armour and weaponry is personified by their being master-crafted. Providing they can A) take the armour save and B) only require 1 save each, a re-roll of 3+ is actually more likely to be passed than a single 2+ too, which again, I covered earlier.

I like these rules. They look fun, and I think you've done a good job balancing them. I do have a couple questions, though.

1. Have you considered allowing all the Custodian Guards to upgrade/swap their weaponry? That is, making the upgrade to Captain cost +10 or 15 points instead of 35, and then allowing any model in the unit the option to take the Captain's weapon options for +20 points per model.

2. Operatives of the Emperor doesn't seem to require you to leave any models in the original unit; does that mean you'd be able to attach one to each of 5 different squads, and not give up any KPs at all for the unit?

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
@DarknessEternal
that's been reconned with the HorusHeresy collected visions book, the las weapons got replaced with Bolt weapons and even the BL novels backs this up

The Horus Heresy line can't retcon anything. It is it's own continuity separate from the standard 40k. That's the official company line.

DarknessEternal wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
@DarknessEternal
that's been reconned with the HorusHeresy collected visions book, the las weapons got replaced with Bolt weapons and even the BL novels backs this up

The Horus Heresy line can't retcon anything. It is it's own continuity separate from the standard 40k. That's the official company line.

Doesn't the artwork for the custodians show them all equipped with bolt weapons?

Also, is the Reroll for the master crafted armor one per model, or one for the squad?

Each Custode is equipped with Master-Crafted Power Armour, so it would be per-model.

And yes, the artwork (any moderately recent at least) shows them with Bolt Weapons.

My questions are ignored. I feel so superfluous.

Whoops! Sorry man, completely forgot to answer your questions! Superfluous you are not.

Anyways, in response:

1) From what I've gathered, almost all Custodes are equipped with Guardian Spears, except for some rare individuals (e.g. Aquillon), so I don't really have any intention to change it as it seems to oppose fluff IMHO. Furthermore, I would argue that the Guardian Spear may actually be the best option due to its flexibility (through Custodian Tactics, which only works alongside the spear). The +35pts upgrade to the Captain is not priced at 35pts on account of the wargear (that's free and optional), but the extra wound and attack; the weapons are probably about equal (hopefully) with the Spear (and tactics) as they exchange flexibility for optimisation (at certain roles).
If you believe this is overcosted (and I wouldn't be quick to disagree with you there), then I think it's worth bearing in mind it's less than an additional Custodes (which it almost provides), on par with many independant characters and costs 90pts, 5pts more than a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with a Power Weapon; but the Captain is superior in almost every regard, hence my pricing it as I have.

2) Yep. Again, going back to Space Wolves here, this works like Wolf Guard, so they only give up a Kill Point if any of them remain as a single/original unit.

Cheers man, appreciate the feedback and questions.

Master Crafted Power Armor is a bad idea. It makes you assign wounds to guys who are identical, which the rules don't support.

Just give them 2+ armor. Every space marine honor guard has Artificer Armor; Custodes are far fewer and have better stuff.

Also, their invulnerable save should be 4+. They have a conversion field in their hat. A Rosarius is a conversion field, so 4+.

Just Dave wrote:Whoops! Sorry man, completely forgot to answer your questions! Superfluous you are not.

Anyways, in response:

1) From what I've gathered, almost all Custodes are equipped with Guardian Spears, except for some rare individuals (e.g. Aquillon), so I don't really have any intention to change it as it seems to oppose fluff IMHO. Furthermore, I would argue that the Guardian Spear may actually be the best option due to its flexibility (through Custodian Tactics, which only works alongside the spear). The +35pts upgrade to the Captain is not priced at 35pts on account of the wargear (that's free and optional), but the extra wound and attack; the weapons are probably about equal (hopefully) with the Spear (and tactics) as they exchange flexibility for optimisation (at certain roles).
If you believe this is overcosted (and I wouldn't be quick to disagree with you there), then I think it's worth bearing in mind it's less than an additional Custodes (which it almost provides), on par with many independant characters and costs 90pts, 5pts more than a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with a Power Weapon; but the Captain is superior in almost every regard, hence my pricing it as I have.

2) Yep. Again, going back to Space Wolves here, this works like Wolf Guard, so they only give up a Kill Point if any of them remain as a single/original unit.

Cheers man, appreciate the feedback and questions.

No worries!

Fair enough on the weapons; more flexibility (even if you're paying for all of the options) is in many ways an increase to the power of the unit, and the Custodians are in a good place power-vs-cost-wise without the additional flexibility of more weapons options.

That said, I would point out that Warhammer 40k is a game that rewards tight specialization and clever use, not flexibility; or at least, that's been my experience. In order to be a successful generalist unit you actually have to be quite good at all of your roles, rather than just average at all of them; Tactical squads are average at everything, while Boyz, for example, and quite good at a smaller list of things, and Boyz are nearly-universally considered to be a stronger unit that Tac Squads.

I don't really think an extra wound and an extra attack is worth 35 points; certainly, in the Traitor Legionnaire rules I'm writing (shameless plug!) I don't assign them that much value. And I do think that trading the good general capabilities of the Guardian Spear for the more specialized power of, for instance, the Thunder Hammer is a boost in the power of the unit; it's not really making him a bit worse at one thing and a bit better at another, it's actually making him a bit worse at one thing (fighting infantry) in exchange for making him a bit better at something else (fighting high-Toughness MCs) AND granting him a new ability that he just didn't have before (fighting Walkers and killing vehicles; though he did have a BIT of anti-vehicle power with Meltabombs). Taking the Power Blades or the Relic Blade are closer to an even trade, since they only make him better at one thing he was already doing rather than granting him ability in a new area, but even so, tighter specialization usually commands a premium in the 40k system.

I'm not saying you should change anything; the rules as you have them are quite good already, and I think they're both well-balanced and fun. But if you wanted to tweak something, to slightly change the role of the unit or perhaps to fit your vision of the background a little more closely, fiddling with upgrade costs and the Captain's options would be the first thing I'd consider.

BeRzErKeR wrote:No worries!

Fair enough on the weapons; more flexibility (even if you're paying for all of the options) is in many ways an increase to the power of the unit, and the Custodians are in a good place power-vs-cost-wise without the additional flexibility of more weapons options.

That said, I would point out that Warhammer 40k is a game that rewards tight specialization and clever use, not flexibility; or at least, that's been my experience. In order to be a successful generalist unit you actually have to be quite good at all of your roles, rather than just average at all of them; Tactical squads are average at everything, while Boyz, for example, and quite good at a smaller list of things, and Boyz are nearly-universally considered to be a stronger unit that Tac Squads.

I don't really think an extra wound and an extra attack is worth 35 points; certainly, in the Traitor Legionnaire rules I'm writing (shameless plug!) I don't assign them that much value. And I do think that trading the good general capabilities of the Guardian Spear for the more specialized power of, for instance, the Thunder Hammer is a boost in the power of the unit; it's not really making him a bit worse at one thing and a bit better at another, it's actually making him a bit worse at one thing (fighting infantry) in exchange for making him a bit better at something else (fighting high-Toughness MCs) AND granting him a new ability that he just didn't have before (fighting Walkers and killing vehicles; though he did have a BIT of anti-vehicle power with Meltabombs). Taking the Power Blades or the Relic Blade are closer to an even trade, since they only make him better at one thing he was already doing rather than granting him ability in a new area, but even so, tighter specialization usually commands a premium in the 40k system.

I'm not saying you should change anything; the rules as you have them are quite good already, and I think they're both well-balanced and fun. But if you wanted to tweak something, to slightly change the role of the unit or perhaps to fit your vision of the background a little more closely, fiddling with upgrade costs and the Captain's options would be the first thing I'd consider.

I agree on the specialisation aspect, in that it's typically A) better or B) more encouraged (I just made an Eldar fandex afterall! ), but I think it can also depend on the role of the unit. For example, when paying large amounts of points for a unit, you'll typically want them to be flexible and not likely to get stuck in certain situations, whilst you may even encourage flexibility in cheaper units at a certain price (e.g. Powerfist on Tactical Squads, Klaws on Ork Boyz). I think a surprising number of units specialise in a single role to be honest, particularly in MeQ armies.

Nonetheless, as they are under these rules (IMHO) and as I wanted them to be, I can't reasonably imagine any non-vehicle unit (of a similar price at least) that the Custodes cannot stand up to in-game; this is accounted for in large part by Custodian Tactics, allowing them to strike at a higher initiative (on par with Force Halberds), or a higher strength (so they're capable of even wounding Wraithlords), with greater attacks (allowing them to take on the hordes of Orks or Gaunts) or reduce the number of incoming attacks (enabling your precious custodes to last longer against higher initiatives, attacks or power weapons, however not all of these can be done at once, and like the Master Crafted Power Armour, it leaves them with identifiable weaknesses, but not major weaknesses however.

Furthermore, such flexibility may be wanted if they're to be used as a second-sergeant in units in some cases?
I do agree on the potency of the Thunder Hammer and for me it too would be the 1st upgrade of the lot I would consider, as if you're running them as a single unit it would provide significantly more reliable punch against vehicles (though they can also have Str5, but that's not exactly the most reliable), but I think this would depend on the individual need of the player and whether they remain as a single squad or split up.

I am thinking that the Captain upgrade is a bit pricey though, I may take it down to 25pts.

To be honest though, again, fluff-wise I can't really see why the Custodes should have the same options as the Captains?

Again, thanks for the kind words man; some really helpful feedback too, honestly, cheers!

DarknessEternal wrote:Just give them 2+ armor. Every space marine honor guard has Artificer Armor; Custodes are far fewer and have better stuff.

Also, their invulnerable save should be 4+. They have a conversion field in their hat. A Rosarius is a conversion field, so 4+.

But again, then they just have Terminator Armour or better, which the background doesn't support nor would it make sense for them to be equipped with Terminator Armour...
Personally I believe the Master-crafted Power Armour to provide a method of representing armour in-between Terminator Armour and Power Armour in effectiveness.

A 4+ invulnerable save would require a points increase. Furthermore, I've not seen any evidence in the background that their 'shield/field' is that powerful, particularly in modern fluff. Whilst there's plenty of statements that their helmet provides the protective field, I've not seen any that suggest it's equal to a Rosarius, nor do I think it should be in game. In all honesty, this may be akin to when I recall you claiming Space Marine helmets to not have visors, which even if it were once true, is now outdated.

Maybe I'm being stubborn or too hopeful that the Custodes rules can remain unique, but I've honestly not met a convincing argument for the 2+ armour save.

The "every marine chapter has loads and loads of 2+ power armor" wasn't convincing enough that you feel an armor that insists upon wounds allocated on a model by model basis on identical models (that nothing else in the game supports) is a better idea?

DarknessEternal wrote:The "every marine chapter has loads and loads of 2+ power armor" wasn't convincing enough that you feel an armor that insists upon wounds allocated on a model by model basis on identical models (that nothing else in the game supports) is a better idea?

i agree with you, i mean look at the Custodes that Tempus Fugitives released....they were balanced and epic

DarknessEternal wrote:The "every marine chapter has loads and loads of 2+ power armor" wasn't convincing enough that you feel an armor that insists upon wounds allocated on a model by model basis on identical models (that nothing else in the game supports) is a better idea?

No, that the points about it providing an armour save equal or superior to that of Terminator Armour hadn't been addressed wasn't convincing enough.
Also, by "loads and loads of 2+ power armour", you mean each Chapter having - being generous - around 50 suits of Artificer Armour (lets say, 1 for each Captain (10), 1 for each Chaplain (10), Chapter Master and each Librarian (10), making me adding 20 for 'generosity') at a guess? Whereas there was 10,000 Custodes? That's a further 200 Chapter's worth of Artificer Armour, assuming there are still 1000 Chapters and they have 50 suits.

I don't understand the difficulty in using the re-roll armour saves, you just take wounds and roll armour saves as normal and instead just note/place a marker next to a model if you re-roll an armour save, so if that model cannot do so again that turn. I don't see it would be any more difficult than wound allocation or keeping track of wounds, but without being as abusive in-game? Surely this is even easier to do if they're leading a separate squad?