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stahly wrote: Here is my review of the Gnarlwood core box, I took some high-res pictures of the sprues and there are also all the base sizes for those who are wondering. The Sons of Velmorn are the same size as the new Skeleton Warriors, so a head erm skull taller than the old models:
Nice review! I will mention that Championship as a format is not listed on the Underworlds site anymore. I assume that means it is disappearing in favor of Nemesis and Rivals.
Are the repacked Gangs supplied fighter cards? Rivals seems a great way to avoid the "gotta catch em all" card barrier to entry but not ideal if fighter cards aren't available.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Eldarain wrote: Are the repacked Gangs supplied fighter cards? Rivals seems a great way to avoid the "gotta catch em all" card barrier to entry but not ideal if fighter cards aren't available.
No. The only ones with any cards are the Harrowdeep and Nethermaze boxes.
Honestly I think if you watch both these reviews you'll get a pretty good idea of what the game is like.
Can you roll a crit is a pretty diehard competitive player. His reviews always focus on this aspect. He is also nostalgic for old school Underworlds. Most of his criticisms are of the rules that reduce complexity in favour of making the game easier to play. For him this is "dumbing down" Personally I disagree with his criticisms of the moving change but I do think his complaints about reactions are completely valid though he does admit that the problems he takes about are edge case scenarios.
Ash likes a good product. He talks about the layout of the book with its advanced rules which are separated into the own sections and skippable when you first play. He talks about the Christmas morning test of being able to open the box and get playing in just a few minutes. He barely touched on the individual cards at all. For him "dumbing down" is "reduced mental load" which he sees as a big positive.
As for Ash being a shill, I think he was more critical of the new kill team scenery than anyone. He likes games and tends to look for the positive in things. Some people don't like that in a reviewer.
As someone who never really got into the idea of collecting every card filtering through thousands of options to find the best possible combo the new edition is very appealing. The new rivals format still gives the options of creating interesting combos but you are choosing from dozens of possible decks rather than thousands of possible cards which may be spread across many different sets.
Can you roll a crit is very good at reviewing individual cards and decks. In the future you will be able to watch those reviews and decide that warband X and deck Y make a really good combo. You buy two things and you are ready to play competitively.
Just so that I can keep my own balance the picture below is pretty ******** ridiculous. It's an old horse but this is pretty blatant.
Completely fair, I was likely a bit too harsh on Ash as well, but I often take his reviews or battle reports with a grain of salt.
He has the problem of playing so many games that rules are often played incorrectly, or just doesn't know many rules interactions, that I find it hard to enjoy a lot of his content or find his game reviews to really be about anything more than how pretty a product is.
My other big complaint with his is when he talks about ways to improve games (like he did with Warmachine Mk. III)... he just ends up wanting every game to be 40k.
While Can You Roll A Crit is pretty nostalgic for older Underworlds, he has a point with the game becoming too rules heavy with the warbands and objectives/hexes. My new group is pretty new, starting at the tail end of Direchasm and I started early Beastgrave, and they are already feeling that stuff like Gloom/Cover hexes and the warband complexity is getting out of hand.
The warbands are getting more complex, but they are removing skill based elements like the lack of a penalty for discarding your opening cards back in Harrowdeep, Reaction blocking, and the random roll off for Sequencing priority for the sake of making the game more easily accessible, but at the game's and players expense.
No idea why they couldn't have kept the Sequencing priority as being the active player, this is just a silly random element for a "competitive" game. Reactions not being blocked by the active player having can lead to a lot of odd scenarios like:
-Model A Charges Ghartok from Magore's Fiends.
-Model A missed their attack roll.
-The player for Model A plays a Reaction to make another attack after a missed attack.
-Ghartok uses his Reaction to make an attack after a failed attack targets him.
-Model A makes their second attack action.
Ghartok's Reaction is still valid it seems because the conditions were met by the failed attack action, even though the player for Model A reacted to the failed attack action by making another attack action against Ghartok. This is a pretty poor experience for the player with Model A. I can only guess how many other odd Reaction chains we will end up with due to this change, and I am really not a fan of how much wording is dedicated to "Reaction Chains", and "Reacting to a Reaction Chain" in the new rulebook instead of just keeping that only one Reaction can be played per Reaction window, and the active player has priority on those Reaction windows.
I still don't like the discarding rules introduced in Harrowdeep that they have kept, because there is no reason not to fish for particular cards or a better hand each game since there isn't a penalty anymore like in every season Direchasm and below.
The new Move/Charge rules are also really strange and something I don't like, and only benefit more elite warbands (many of which didn't need the help), and while making it easier to play the game, greatly reduce the decision making skill of planning out your actions each turn, and deck building (even in a Rivals format) due to not really having to worry about keeping mobility cards in your deck. It also leads to some really bad player experiences against the "big guy" warbands with very strong single fighters like Morgok's Krushas, Wurmspat, or even a warband like Kainan's Reapers when you can often plan around them only getting to do one Charge or Move action a turn. It leads to pretty crazy events like this one if a single Krusha was killed in a previous round:
-Morgok charges activation 1.
-Thugg or 'Ardskull (whichever one is the other surviving fighter) charges activation 2.
-Every surviving fighter has a Charge token so Morgok can use his card action to push Thugg or 'Ardskull and himself 2 hexes activation 3.
-Morgok or the other surviving Krusha can make an attack action activation 4.
It only penalizes large warbands, which are already penalized by generally giving up more Glory each game. Playing any warband with more than 4 fighters becomes a worse decision due to these rules changes, and is going to make a lot of warbands with strong single fighter like Mollog feel even more oppressive than they can because they made the game "easier to play".
The new Nemesis format is great, and I still enjoy Rivals a lot, it has just been getting harder to be excited each season as they tack on more and more to each season with things like Stagger, Delve, Vulnerable, keyword stacking, and a lot of questionable rules changes.
Edited for spelling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/23 09:51:37
NH Gunsmith wrote: The new Nemesis format is great, and I still enjoy Rivals a lot, it has just been getting harder to be excited each season as they tack on more and to each season with things like Stagger, Delve, Vulnerable, keyword stacking, and a lot of questionable rules changes.
Totally agree about the endless keywords. I understand that without expanding the game, it becomes much harder to add unique-feeling warbands, but the more it grinds on, the harder it becomes to keep up. And that's without having to collect every single warband.
I really hope the rules start to stabilize again, and they focus primarily on the individual warbands. I could genuinely see folks buying repackaged older warbands if they came with new, balanced Rivals decks. I don't know if GW sees that as a monetary win, but it certainly seems like it could be.
As it stands, Underworlds seems like it's trying to use the MTG model for new expansions year after year, but I don't think it's sustainable for a tabletop miniatures game.
My biggest problem is that with the new smaller seasons they are moving too fast. I preordered Nethermaze so I had it for the full life circle of this season.
Now when it comes to Underworlds I am mainly a collector/painter and not a player but still try to play when i can.
I am the one doing the heavy lifting in my group with underworlds so I had to teach my group what has changed since our last game when we played our first game in Nethermaze and now I have to do that again with Gnarlwood. And we have only played like 3-4 games of Nethermaze. So if every 3-4 games I show up and tell them "Yes, but now the rules have changed" it's hard for my group to keep up and not lose interest in the game.
And all this because GW decided they wanted shorter seasons for some reason and they have to change as many rules as they can every season so they don't sell the same game each time.
Well i have news for you GW... we don't buy the new seasons for the new rules, we buy them for the new miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/23 10:11:11
Yeah, it doesn't feel as though the rules for each new core set are a refinement of what came before. Instead, it feels like the same base game plus a set of random mutators for the lolz. It is like having to buy a new Infinity core book every ITS season, where the ITS changes are baked into the rules but those changes will have been swapped out for something else in the next release.
Only this is worse, because GW can release a warband during the season that depends on those temporary rules in order to work and it is handicapped once those rules go away the following season.
I know that if I was playing a warband that depended on Gloom hexes I would be pretty sad right now. Likewise, any deck that leaned into hobbling mobility by handing out move tokens. Luckily I play Khagra's Ravagers so this is a net improvement for me (new charging rules are good, new objective token rules will make desecration via sacrifice easier but it will be harder to score "If all objectives one players territory.." type cards)
Edit: I do wish GW would stop introducing new feature tokens, though. Sometimes it feels like you have to buy a new core box just to have a set of those.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/23 11:02:10
After digesting Ash's video on the changes, I have to say I see this development as a major negative. I feel like GW has thrown in the towel on game balance and having Underworlds as their (only) ruleset designed for real competitive play and relegated it to its stable of casual hell where literally all their other games already languish. And this while making the bare bones starter set more expensive than almost all major board games. At this point I would not recommend Underworlds as a new purchase to anyone other than diehard addict whales who are entirely uninterested in anything not GW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/23 11:07:50
Posters on ignore list: 36
40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.
Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here.
I'm pretty excited for the new season, I pre-ordered my copy of gnarlwood. I'm a fan of the new changes. Looking forward to seeing what decks I want to build with my favourite warbands with the new cards.
I always found blocking reactions for your opponent to be very clunky and led to a lot of npe. I like that both players can share reaction windows, and I think It allows more positive than negative.
So happy primacy is gone, and that objectives are now face up to start.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/23 11:47:41
lord_blackfang wrote: After digesting Ash's video on the changes, I have to say I see this development as a major negative. I feel like GW has thrown in the towel on game balance and having Underworlds as their (only) ruleset designed for real competitive play and relegated it to its stable of casual hell where literally all their other games already languish. And this while making the bare bones starter set more expensive than almost all major board games. At this point I would not recommend Underworlds as a new purchase to anyone other than diehard addict whales who are entirely uninterested in anything not GW.
To me it comes off like a last hail mary. Covid temporarily killed a lot of Underworld groups, bu the game got too expensive in the last 2/3 years for most people to reasonably keep up with buying boxes just for Championship. People could easily justify spending £15 for a pack of cards and some models every other month (especially when they could sell them on) and a yearly £30-40 boxset, or just a few of them. Expecting people to pay £26 and £60 for the same (there's just over half the cards of Nethermaze in Gnarlwood) isn't going to happen, especially when most people had an extended break and we all know what kind of atrocious attention span folks have when it comes to sticking with games that aren't 40k.
This sounds like the designers know they screwed the pooch and are having to lean on a lot more players buying one box, playing it exclusively and hopefully some of them will buy all the separate Rival Decks when they release, rather than people committing to deck building anymore. None will play championship/relic anymore because it's obvious GW wans to leave it out to dry, which leaves rivals and nemesis. I think the big risk is the people who liked championship will want to lean on nemesis, but the much more casual and most newer players will just want to stick to rivals and it will split the already small community until the already shaky momentum drops off and it's waved off as a dead game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/23 12:00:49
jaredb wrote: As a championship player, I do really like the nemesis format, and I'm already seeing a lot more local interest with the new set and that format.
Nemesis is fun, and it's nice playing a deck where not everything is completely optimized.
Although I have been pretty negative on this season in my last couple of posts, I agree with you that I also like the Nemesis format.
Picked up a handful of Silent Menace Rivals decks to swap out the cards from the Essentials Pack that I had been using while we were playing "Rivals+", and it provided some pretty good moments where I really had to think about what I wanted the goal of those decks to be as I mixed in the cards to my Dread Pageant, Magore's Fiends, and Khagra's Ravagers decks.
Biggest benefit to Nemesis though... is it being an official format. So much easier to explain the format to people instead of telling them that it is an unofficial format, and the rules for it come from the tournament packet of an official tournament... Now I can just pull something from Warhammer Community, or direct people there so they can see the game devs explain it.
Watched the Agents Of Sigmar game with the Daring Delvers and Tooth And Claws decks... meh, they seem really clunky with how the explorer points and Savage keyword works.
I thought our only choices for Nemesis were Illusory Might, Deadly Depths, Tooth and Claw and Daring Delvers?
I will be doing the same thing this afternoon, swapping out the ~12 cards from Essentials that are currently in my Ravagers deck for ones that will be Nemesis legal. I'm.. probably going to end up with some cards from Daring Delvers at this point.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/10/29 10:28:59
Siygess wrote: I thought our only choices for Nemesis were Illusory Might, Deadly Depths, Tooth and Claw and Daring Delvers?
Lol. Turns out you are indeed correct, the Nemesis format rules posted yesterday, so I was working off of the old "Rivals+" packet and the Warhammer Community article saying it was any universal Rivals deck plus your faction cards.
Feel a hair foolish now, guess the Silent Menace universal deck is no longer valid. Kind of a bummer though, I use clear sleeves, so will have to change to opaque because I only have older warbands.
I am not surprised about silent menace, as it's no longer in production. But, I am surprised that the white dwarf rivals decks are not included.
Also, it looks like all the new warbands will have rivals decks, instead of random universal cards, so I wonder if we'll see grand alliance universal cards again, or if we might see grand alliance rivals decks.
jaredb wrote: I am not surprised about silent menace, as it's no longer in production. But, I am surprised that the white dwarf rivals decks are not included.
Also, it looks like all the new warbands will have rivals decks, instead of random universal cards, so I wonder if we'll see grand alliance universal cards again, or if we might see grand alliance rivals decks.
I have also read that people are thinking the Rivals decks in Nemesis will rotate out as well.
While a huge bummer if true, would make sense why Silent Menace isn't included. Illusory Might is also out of production, yet it was included in the format.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/29 12:46:42
Huh. If I am reading this right, the Ravagers Sacrifice ability is actually good again. The Plunder reaction to place an objective under the target happens in an earlier (and different) reaction step to the Sacrifice ability, meaning you can immediately desecrate the objective you just placed.
*quietly slips Absolute Desecration back into the objective deck*
Siygess wrote: Huh. If I am reading this right, the Ravagers Sacrifice ability is actually good again. The Plunder reaction to place an objective under the target happens in an earlier (and different) reaction step to the Sacrifice ability, meaning you can immediately desecrate the objective you just placed.
*quietly slips Absolute Desecration back into the objective deck*
Yeah, the Ravagers look like they are VERY well suited to Nemesis. Their faction cards are incredible, the buff to their Inspire, and the new Plunder mechanic make them feel like they finally are in a good spot haha...
Only took three seasons, a buff, a new deck format, and the Plunder mechanic... but they will finally be able to shine!
Irbis wrote: On a side note, rider looks suspiciously similar to Goblin Slayer. I wonder if it's a reference?
Most likely. Other than the helmet grill, nothing else really screams "Goblin Slayer" to me, and even that helmet grill type is generic enough. Almost all the character designs in Goblin Slayer are just generic tropes anyways, and them being generic is why they don't use actual names and call each other by race or class.
Meh. Some really fun designs there but ultimately another band of mixed night gobs feels the same, especially with how diverse GSG are as a faction. Could have been a spiderfang warband, or an all-hopper warband, or grots riding a troll...
Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
Are these snotlings?
