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Hello chums!

Well, as most of you are aware I'm a one man army in 40k, and I only play Vanilla Ultramarines as a matter of pride!

Anyway, after reading all of the Horus Heresy books this past 18 months, I am fully into the fluff and pretty much had feth all left to read, so I recently picked up the BA and SW codexes, primarily for the background and general interest purposes, and I was somewhat stunned by the (seeming) might of the Death company!

I'm a noob with regards to playing them, but seeing as me and Albatross are casual gamers who can proxy and such, after reading the book I fancy a few games as them, not least because I literally never ever play my Vanilla Assault marines and VV I spend ages painting, so If I play a few games with the BA dex I might get to use the models.

The Death Company guys seem ridiculously nails to me. Is this an incorrect assumption? I have long thought the C:SM dex is poor in comparison to the newer marines, but after reading the BA/SW dexes they really do seem weak in comparison unless you play a Vulkan/spam 3 or 4 of the same unit endlessly (TH/SS, SG with combis in drop pods etc) .. but that's by the by.

Bare in mind ive not read any BA tactics, or army lists, a simple question..

The DC seem bad ass to me. Ridiculously undercosted If you compare them to a SM tactical squad for example, as they can shoot as well as them, but would rape face when the inevitable assault time arrives, and far more survivable. (3+ and FNP)

So, my question is simply, in my ignorance, are they as good as they look?

Simply running the numbers in my head, say I took the chaplain that allows them to be taken as troops, and as many as I can fit in to the list, wouldnt they be ridiculously hard to beat?

We usually play 1000-1500pts and he plays Orks (usual good list, KFF, every mob in wagons/trukks, nobs with claws, a couple of deffkoptas, you know the drill) and Its always a really close match because I like to take a good variety (at least 20 SM tacs as troops for starters and I also really like my TFC cos I spend ages painting it, so that's 500pts right off the bat) I really struggle with Vanilla unless I use a cheese-pod (make my list as normal but stick ten SG with combi weapons in a pod and wreck some stuff with them)

So am I incorrect with my assumption that a DC list would be nails!?

Seems to me, you could take Astorath and two mobs of 30 DC (what's that gonna run me, about 800pts?) and just stand there and do nothing, and still kick an orks arse?! They could ram you with the DR which would still only kill 4 or 5, and then the 25 guys remaining with all of their bad ass special rules and FNP would promptly kick the orks asses surely?

So, any common DC lists out there? If so, whats a common one? Do they take DC dreads?

And am I correct in my assumption, or are BA not that much better than Vanilla after all?

DC are great, the two things you have to remember is that they aren't scoring and they have rage USR. This can make them hard to use. They also come without jumpacks so you can either run max 10 man squads in a transport (12 in a Raven) or spend alot of points to give them JP.

DC dreads are great as they count as a troop choice but again they have the same flaw with the rage USR.

An all DC army is nuts to play and is alot of fun, as they tend to chew through more other units, but it's not competitive at all as you can only win with KP.

It would be a good list, until someone started lobbing ap 1-3 shots at you in mass. It does look good on paper, and played right it does well, but you need to support them by taking out key targets so your death company don't go splat.

DC dreads are common in DC lists, if for the only reason to draw anti-tank fire away from your DC dudes.

BA have some tricks that vanilla marines can't do. Then again, vanilla marines have some that BA can't do. It's mostly about playstyle. If you want a melee force, BA. If you want a shooty/versatile force, vanilla.

I like the Blood Angels and I was trying to decide whether it was better to load up on Death Company or use mostly regular assault squads who come with Jump packs. I know the BA can buy 3 Priest as one elite choice and the confer feel no pain and and furious charge to every unit within 6 inches of them.

I know the Death Company have WS 5 and one more attack than regular BA assault marines but I figured by going with lots of assault marines the army would be super mobile and the 3 BA Priest confering feel no pain and furious charge to the Assault squads.

So basically my thought was an army with lots of BA Assault Marines might be better than lots of death company because they are mobile and cheaper than Death Company. If the Death Company buy jump packs they become 15 points more expensive per model.

While the Death Company could no doubt create a much stronger death star unit I am thinking assualt squads we be a more competive army with the bang for the buck per model.

They have Rage which means you'll probably want them in a transport...and a rhino/razor probably won't do since they're too easy to pop and your DC will jump right out and charge at the nearest enemy. So you'll probably want them in a Land Raider, at which point you're sinking a huge amount of points into a unit which isn't THAT good.
All in all, they aren't as good at melée as the true elites like sternguard (assaulting after deep strike=deadly), but they aren't as cheap/flexible as assault marines.
And obviously they can't hold objectives. They may well work once or twice against an opponant who doesn't know what they're doing but they're pretty easy to blow up once you know how.

I'm going to try out an ASM/FNP horde army soon, I figure 64 marines all with FNP jumping across the board in a 1750 would be some good fun!

Depends how they are used to be honest.

With jump packs the points cost goes through the roof.
So in smaller games your numbers are very low, and in higher point games its the same, but the enemy has alot more firepower to turn on them.

As basic though they arent bad, provided you keep them in transports and use them carefully.
Just a case of doing what you allways do and picking what targets to ignore/engage.

Also, against anything with power weapons your options are limited to shooting them with vehicles, as the DC will assault them anyway if you cant kill them all through shooting.

Ive run a few different Pure DC lists, but mainly comes down to:

Redeemer with maxed unit of DC.
Assault cannon razorback with 6 man DC.
Assault cannon razorback with 6 man DC.

I allways have that as a basic start as it gives me an option to shoot targets i want to keep out of combat with.
From there i usually start moving more towards bolstering units with chappies, adding in DC dreads etc.
All fun, but you need to table someone for a win, which isnt allways easy against large horde armies when your seriously outnumbered.

That's an accurate statement, ftank.

One problem with the merry folks of the Death Company is getting them where you want them to be so they can actually contribute to the battle. Achieving that with an Assault Vehicle isn't unheard of, as you retain full control of their movement until their first charge, but it's far from cheap. I also wouldn't say they are undercosted, seeing as their options quickly add up.

I don't play BA, but I've loved those guys since I heard of them too. Khorne Berserkers wish they were as badass. The models are awesome and I'm thinking about painting some just for the sake of it.
I chuckle every time DC Dreadnoughts are mentioned since I first heard of them described as "turbocharged lawnmowers of pure hate".

Call me unoriginal Jackal, but aren't Las/Plas Razorback the standard for BA ?

Thanks for the advice, some interseting tactics mentioned, although, Joey im curious as to your statement, Sternguard cant assault after a deepstrike can they?

And they only have two attacks base, and no FNP, how are they better than DC in assault?

Do you mean Vanguard?

725 point I run to massive effect:

Reclusiarch with plasma pistol

10 DC 2 power weapons, one fist, one hammer, plasma pistol, hand flamer

Land Raider Crusader, MM, SB.

I often get turn 1-2 assaults, I run two JP assault squads up to clean up what ever they don't get with a libby dread for shield/mobile hood.

DC dread, usuallly get smoked quick, but with the libby dread keeping pace it works well for cover. It does amazing damage, until it rages into av 14.

mattyrm wrote: Thanks for the advice, some interseting tactics mentioned, although, Joey im curious as to your statement, Sternguard cant assault after a deepstrike can they?

And they only have two attacks base, and no FNP, how are they better than DC in assault?

Do you mean Vanguard?

Yeah I meant Vanguard, my bad.

If DC get the chrage they normally kill what ever they hit, with exception to some of the hardest Deathstars out there. The problem is getting them into the combat you want. Normally if you run JP then they are so expensive you opponent has no problem dealing with them as you have nothing else on the board. Or they are in a transport, and that becomes Target priority number 1.

I have had some success dropping 10 in a drop pod turn one along with a DC Dread. Drop them in your oponnets back line and watch them run wild. Not the best use of points, but it is fun if your oponnent does not know what to do with them.

I played one in 'Ard Boyz last year, and basically this is how it went:

- He rushes at me (he had a large 20 blob w/ packs).
- I run a speeder over them
- His guys move to kill my speeder, and do (I had stopped all his firepower)
- I move another speeder over them, start tearing through the rest of his army
- He moves and kills my last 2 speeders
- I finish off the rest of his army, start picking away at his DC squad
- His DC decimates a stormraven
- I mop up his DC

DC are pretty easily killed if you pop their ranged AT. I believe DC are best in a list as a single-of, spamming or kitting them out to the extreme isn't very reliable.

Yup. They have amazing stats to make up for the fact that Rage is the biggest handicap of a USR that a unit can have.

Should I assault and wipe out the scoring unit holding my opponent's objective? Nope! Not if there's a random landspeeder or weaponless razorback half an inch closer and in the opposite direction! Gotta move toward and kill the closest thing!

Stormraven with DC and DC dread is a lovely combo. Turbo boost T1 for the cover save and then unload the contents. Works best when you have other threats on the board though so the stormraven doesn't take all the high Str shooting.

When you're considering spamming, well, 20 points for Marine stats, Fearless, +1 WS, +1A, Furious Charge, Relentless, and Feel No Pain is pretty damn decent. Rage is not hard to overcome with generalship.

The main boon is WS5 powerfists, of which you can take more than one.

The trick with Astorath armies is not to fall into the trap of loading up too many special weapons,\/power weapons chaplains to lead them, and other wasted points.

A basic Death Company unit armed with Bolters and double fists will exact a toll on almost anything in the game, and they do fine in Rhinos or Drop Pods.

Basic tenants;

Death Company are expendable, in a meatgrinder they generally come out on top point for point.
WS5 Powerfist x 2 is tough to counter.
Use Bolters in combination with fast Rhinos/Drop Pods to pitch and them into combat ASAP and dictate terms.
Don't waste points on expensive Chaplains to lead them, it's overkill.
You still need some real troops to claim objectives. Don't hamstring yourself into KP's only.

Example list:

Astorath

Assault Squad (10) Meltax2, Infernus Pistol Powerfist <-- Astorath
Death Company (8) Bolters, Infernus Pistol x2 Powerfist x1 Thunder Hammer x1, Drop Pod
Death Company (8) Bolters, Infernus Pistol x2 Powerfist x1 Thunder Hammer x1, Drop Pod
Death Company (8) Bolters, Powerfist x2, Drop Pod
Death Company Dreadnought, Drop Pod
Scouts x10, Sniper

Devastatorsx5, Missle x4, Drop Pod
Devastatorsx5, Missle x4
Devastatorsx5, Missle x4

I hate the rage rule, as it feels like you are not even playing the DC once they get out of the transport. That irks me greatly. It will be interesting to see if 6th edition changes the rage rule. I miss DC, they were my favorite before this codex.

racta wrote:I hate the rage rule, as it feels like you are not even playing the DC once they get out of the transport. That irks me greatly. It will be interesting to see if 6th edition changes the rage rule. I miss DC, they were my favorite before this codex.

3rd and 4th ed list you never saw a Blood Angel army without a Chaplin and DC. Now you must build a list if you want to run DC. And the new Chaplin is the Librian. Makes me sad at times.

But then my Libby and Assault Squad tear through your troops and I get a smile on my face

jbunny wrote:

racta wrote:I hate the rage rule, as it feels like you are not even playing the DC once they get out of the transport. That irks me greatly. It will be interesting to see if 6th edition changes the rage rule. I miss DC, they were my favorite before this codex.

3rd and 4th ed list you never saw a Blood Angel army without a Chaplin and DC. Now you must build a list if you want to run DC. And the new Chaplin is the Librian. Makes me sad at times.

But then my Libby and Assault Squad tear through your troops and I get a smile on my face

Well, at least in 3rd edition, it wasn't really an option. I mean the chappy was an option I guess, but then the DC made itself. It was so random though it could completely frag the balance of the game with good luck. I remember playing a 2k against a largely static gunline list, las cannons in each unit and dev squads with missles, and my bud ended up with a 30 man DC with a good handful of PFists. I kind of wanted to cry. It was the most absurd combination of fire power and CC I've ever seen before the GK codex came out .

ruminator wrote:Stormraven with DC and DC dread is a lovely combo. Turbo boost T1 for the cover save and then unload the contents. Works best when you have other threats on the board though so the stormraven doesn't take all the high Str shooting.

Furioso dread works better; but otherwise, yeah.

Meh...Death Company are very underwhelming against pretty much everything, and the fact that they can be kited is a dealbreaker.

Last game I played against a BA player using Death Company, they ended up chasing around an empty Chimera for the second half of the game. Yay...

30 man DC mobs would be fun to use but you wouldn't be able to put them in a transport meaning they can be kited by a land raider, so you'll maybe want a thunder hammer or such in there.

Another thought that deters me from DC marines is the ever-present possibility of S8 Pie plates, and considering how many points are sunk into a 30-man-mob, that could potentially be a whole gakload of points insta-gibbed, ignoring their USR FNP. My favourite thing about them though is if you drop them near a target, thanks to USR furious charge you can get a bunch of them outfitted with badass weapons and wreck face, but you really do have to use them wisely.

Remember that rage does not force you to assault a particular unit. The only things is specifies is moving running and consolidating towards the nearest enemy.

That vehicle that is a half inch closer might pull the dc out of charge range but also might bring you within charge range of something else.

Jump packs are expensive. I run 5 dc with jps, th, 2 pw and 2 normal. I add in astorath and a storm raven to transport. Moat games it does well. I normally have a dc dread with talons that mops the floor with anything that isn't av12 or more. I've gotten it stuck in combat with another dread before because I figured I could glance the crap out of it. Never depend on glances.

With rage you get use to positioning them into the middle of your enemies' lines. Then they split up and the rest of your army takes on one half of their army on a single side of the board.

Smaller games I run 5 DC, bigger games I run 10.

Both units will have 2 Power Weapons, and a Fist. I put them in a Stormraven for 1st or 2nd turn assaults. After I target the first unit, they are fire and forget.

I like to have them target back rank units, like heavy weapon teams if at all possible.

Best I've seen is 10 bolter dudes containing 2 Fists. Relentless bolters are not to be trifled with; this setup helps mitigate the downsides of Raeg and completely negates the downside of Fists. Moreover, the squad is actually quite affordable at 250 (315 with a XARM Rhino).

Ran wrote:Best I've seen is 10 bolter dudes containing 2 Fists. Relentless bolters are not to be trifled with; this setup helps mitigate the downsides of Raeg and completely negates the downside of Fists. Moreover, the squad is actually quite affordable at 250 (315 with a XARM Rhino).

Yep. This.

Unless I'm missing something though, you're better off with BP/CCW if you're packing a Reclusiarch with them... Since you're trading one shot (Rapid Fire vs pistol) for one re-rollable to hit and to wound attack. Needless to say, the fists keep their bolter.
Not the same point budget of course.