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So I was thinking about what would happen if vehicles had an AV of 15. Would this make the game outrageously unbalanced? Do you think it would add another element of tactics to the game? If you think it would be an interesting addition, why? If you think it would be completely awful, why?

EDIT: I meant to say for normal games of 40k, not Apocalypse or anything like that. Just a regular game, using regular rules, except some vehicles have AV15. Could be AV15 all the way around, or just on the front, whatever.

Just curious here. Also not sure if it belongs here or Proposed Rules, so mods, please move this thread if necessary.

So basically I would need to roll a 7 on a D6 to hit? right?

The game is based and theoretically balanced around having av from 10-14. Going to 15 means without melta or str 10, you can't really get through it with weapons designed for the job. I mean titans are normally what, av 13?

Not a fan. If you want something to last longer, give it a cover save, invulnerable save, or a -1 on the damage chart or something.

But armor 15 makes it immune to krack missiles and lower, and a lascannon can only glance it. That would leave 1/2 range melta and a few IG guns and the rail gun as the only thing to deal with it at range.

It just upsets the current game balance, IMHO.

kronk wrote:Not a fan. If you want something to last longer, give it a cover save, invulnerable save, or a -1 on the damage chart or something.

But armor 15 makes it immune to krack missiles and lower, and a lascannon can only glance it. That would leave 1/2 range melta and a few IG guns and the rail gun as the only thing to deal with it at range.

It just upsets the current game balance, IMHO.

+1 to this opinion

AV 14 is already really hard to deal with example i played gk a week or 2 ago and took out his daemonhammers and librarian. my opponent couldn't kill the them they ran right behind draigos unit blasting them

A vehicle with 15/10/10 might be interesting...kind of like how people get so desperate trying to get to the back of my Master of the Ravenwing with 14/14/10 armour

Just to try and stir the pot a little more, what about lance weapons? If AV15 became real, would this make for armies to include more lance type weapons more often than not, as a type of just in case measure? As it stands now, I rarely see lance weapons used in the first place. If there was an AV15, it could help make people think about taking other weapons that are currently looked over.

Just a thought that crept up after I read the first few comments.

Because Lance weapons are not that common. You don't see them a lot because there are basically two armies that field them in any appreciable quantity, Eldar and Dark Eldar.

It wouldn't help make people think about taking other weapons as much as it would boost the competitiveness of armies that already have access to plentiful amounts of (reliable) lance weaponry (namely DE).

I would not be opposed to having an (expensive) 15/10/10 vehicle, as that wouldn't upset balance as much as it would force mobility.

All in all, AV15 would just exacerbate the trend we're already seeing with many armies out there. More hammers, more PF/CF, and most of all, more melta. All driving around in metal boxes to get in position.

AV15 would fix the game in the same way that the game needs to be fixed so only meltagun/lance armies can win.

amen brother look at it this way these are weapons i know of that can deal with av 15

SM-meltagun multimelta demolisher cannon, chainfist, Dreadnought close combat weapon lascannon(glance only)
IG-meltagun multimelta demolisher cannon, vanquisher cannon,lascannon(glance only)
SOB-meltas
GK-deamon hammer and warprift
eldar-fireprism, avatar, fusion guns, bright lance
Dark eldar, Dark Lance
Tau-railgun, fusion gun
orks-I have no clue
necrons-tombblade gun
Nids-close combat
chaos-demolisher cannon deamon prince cc
deamons-cc

its really to powerful because of ther rarity of weapons that can negate it

But think about those weapons, the availability of them,and even then, the penetrative capability. I know little about the xenos armies, but getting that close to the enemy with a guardsman using a melta is near suicide, because the enemy is bound to target tank hunters. I'll admit some of the Leman Russ, or a Medusa could handle it, but those aren't found in any other army. It just seems to me that an all-round army, not designed for tank hunting, would have too much of a hard time if it gets parked in cover.

In a d6 system av 15 is unworkable.

If you want to make vehicles harder to kill, fix the "magic bullet" problem. Don't tape on another band-aid over this system.

moom241 wrote:But think about those weapons, the availability of them,and even then, the penetrative capability. I know little about the xenos armies, but getting that close to the enemy with a guardsman using a melta is near suicide, because the enemy is bound to target tank hunters. I'll admit some of the Leman Russ, or a Medusa could handle it, but those aren't found in any other army. It just seems to me that an all-round army, not designed for tank hunting, would have too much of a hard time if it gets parked in cover.

Basically the issue is it screws over everyone EXCEPT lances and melta. If it screwed over everyone equally it would sort-of make sense. But it doesn't.

You would start seeing a lot more vindicare assassin complaining on these forums

AV 15 would make it damn near impossible for Orks to beat.

The strongest semireliable gun orks have is S8 (rokkits) which can only glance a 14, and CC powerklaws are S 9, barring warbosses and walkers.

Not every army has access to lancy goodness and meltaspam, with a side order of meltabombs.

It wouldn't inconvenience eldar or the IOM codexes as much, but it's be unbalanced as hell against Orks.

If anything greater than AV14 was available, I would actively encourage you to spend the extra points on it.

As a DE player, anything above AV12 makes zero difference as I could still pen 16% of the time

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However, AV15? The walls of fortifications are AV14. So going beyond that is a bit OTT.

If you look closely, the entire AV system is balanced around rockets being S8. By making a tank immune to most anti-tank weapons, you toss one of the few balanced aspects of WH40k right out the window. So, no way.

It would just require them to provide armies with a way to take out the AV 15, or youd see more lasscannons, more tau hammerheads and more lances defiantley more lances and melta weapons

GK can deal with it just fine. a rend from a psycannon can reach 16.
psycannon>melta

I can hear my Orks disassembling themselves right now.

A Manticore would damage AV 15 2/3 of the time, and melta guns could penetrate.
Should be very rare though. Maybe the front armour of a Land Raider?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kb305 wrote:GK can deal with it just fine. a rend from a psycannon can reach 16.
psycannon>melta

Meltaguns can reach 20...

I'm only down if you give to only non imperium armies.

Ork trukk, paint black? Av 15

Eldar serpant, diamond spirit stone.. Av 15

Tau devil fish, prototype materials.. Av 15

Otherwise.. terrible.

Well what about Titans having AV 15 front?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is what could be reliably used against AV 15


Meltas
Dark/Bright/Heat whatever lances.from.eldar.
GK Lance Strike and Hammerhanded Hammers
Warp Lance
MCs
Broadsides
It.would be a.reason.for IG to take Vanqs. LRBT can't touch it

LRBT is useless against Land Raiders anyway. Demolishers, however, aren't. They'd still damage a Land Raider @ AV 15 66% of the time, assuming a hit. That's a 33% chance glance, 33% penetrating.
So no the Demolisher is still better.

The only machines that would be rightfully granted AV 15 would be Titans or Super Heavies.

god forbid Av 16 on soemthing like the front end of an Imperator Titan or somethign equally as powerful.


D Weapons could crack Av 15 though. Don't they ignore Penetration?

Shaman wrote:I'm only down if you give to only these non imperium armies.

Ork battlewagon, painted black? Av 15

Tau hammerhead, prototype materials.. Av 15

Otherwise.. terrible.

Agreed with Shaman's opinion, I just modified it a bit with the bolded parts.

I agree with the opinion that there should be some other modifier if you want to make the vehicle more survivable. Flickerfields and structure points are good ideas. AV15 isn't.

It was annoying enough back in the old monolith days where basically the only thing that could kill it was S10 or lascannons. Needing to bring those things for the explicit purpose of just in case one showed up (because otherwise you were powerless to stop it), even if otherwise you would never have bothered was already annoying enough. I would really rather not return to those days.

Honestly, I would much rather that everything got it's AV reduced by 3 and tanks got something like W3. That way vehicles would be more reliable, rather than invincible when you're lucky, and instantly neutralized by a single shot when you're not.

Yeah I'm sorry but tau have disruption pods so they could have a 4+ cover save in addition to av 15? Yeah that wouldn't be ridiculously OP at all....