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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

I want GW to win on the parts of the lawsuit where they said that CHS infringed by saying Ultramarine Shoulder Pads, Salamander Shoulder Pads. The part where CHS did not care about the trademarks.

I want CHS to win the portions where they are providing sculpts that are add on's that are not available elsewhere. If it's not provided by GW or it's a better product (or heck, even worse) I want the competition to be available. I honestly think GW went into this thinking they were the 900 lb gorilla in the room and not realizing they were full of hot air for most of it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

I think IP is shenanigans and should not exist period. No one much less a company should be able to "own" an idea. Its counter human evolution where ideas are refined and shared. In fact the Christian Church went through something like this (trying to suppress the printing machine), what would have happened if we had IP then and the Church be able to flat out own and deny the printing machine to the world. IP is as irrational as trying to cage an idea.

The fact that this would screw GW big time, is just an added benefit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

It's a mix: Here's the thing: Copyright was intended, in essence, as a way for writers and artists to protect their works from major corporations they couldn't hope to fight in court using their creative works free of charge. It's actually supposed to promote artistic expression. How it has become to be used, however, is to stifle that expression wherever possible.

Particularly with such expansive claims as are made by companies like Games Workshop, Hasbro, and a variety of media companies like Sony, BMG, etc, and all inclusive, far reaching laws like the DMCA. These companies abuse the system for their own gain and make the law do the reverse of it's intent, DMCA notices because a TV in the background of one shot is showing 1/10th of a second of their property. False DMCA claims against people to force them to take down their own content (the 'megaupload' ad was perhaps the most well known but there are a lot of others).

The only thing 'innovative' in all this is the many ways they exploit the law.

From my perspective, Games Workshop is a weak link in the IP Mafia, because they make a lot of mistakes. Companies like Time Warner, Sony, take staggering amounts of cash to fight in court compared to GW, and they're almost always settled out of court rather than face a ruling. I want to see GW's balls nailed to the wall, so to speak, because it weakens the cases of all those other companies who exploit the system. I doubt we'll get the sort of crushing victory that would break them, but every little bit helps.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

While interesting, this whole line is off-topic.

With the trial actually going on now, let's continue to limit this thread to discussion of the details of the happenings of the lawsuit. If you want to take this conversation elsewhere, feel free, so long as people remain polite.

Im not against GW in all this or CHS. For the most part GW are the Backbone for most if not all tabletop miniatures, And company's like CHS make there living off of that back bone. As do the hundreds of YouTube channels, podcasts and Forums, dedicated to wargaming I am against the aggressive nature that GW uses in these cases though.

I am worried about the implications of what would happen if GW does loose the case of Copyright though. I'm finding it hard to word at the moment but I guess the easiest thing to say would be "Better the devil you know"

This entire thing is because GW created a gap in the market by deleting the bitz service, then they got mad when others filled that gap.

GW felt it wasn't worth the money to keep the Bitz service, but one has to wonder how long they could have kept it running using the money they'll end up spending in total on this single lawsuit which they may very well lose.

GW could have scaled down the bitz service, instead they shot it in the head.

Sorr, Jankthin..

Deleting post for continuing the OT discussion.

So do we have any way of finding out what has transpired in the court? Or is it we are going to have to wait till the documents are filed at the end of the trial?

Just curious when the next "official" update of the trial will be.

Yeah, all the speculation, i just want to know what's been decided

Nothing has been... the trial just started. After each side gets their 20 hours (they don't filibuster it all at once btw) they'll still have to deliberate. You haven't missed anything due to the speculation.

I don't believe court papers get released until after some time either. So we just have to sit tight and wait.

 cerbrus2 wrote:
For the most part GW are the Backbone for most if not all tabletop miniatures,

I'd have a problem with "most" but "if not all" takes your statement way over the line. Let's not mince words here, there's no way that even the most catastrophic legal outcome for GW would have repercussions to the man on the street when it comes to tabletop miniatures. And as it stands, that contingency is an extremely remote one. GW is not a load-bearing pillar of the industry, nor is this case likely to cause serious disruptions in the way of things. The most likely outcome is much more probably going to be a muddled compromise that leaves both sides grumbling and turns the entire affair into a damp squib.

Reality is far, far more drab and tedious than fiction, after all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?
[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

For several reasons, completely agree with KillKrazy; I hope CHS knock a hole in them.

The reason being.. well where do I begin? The crushing of fan websites (at least half a dozen you can care to mention), the company's biggest fans who managed to mis-step for usually a single minor infringement, and then had to suffer repeated pelvic thrusts to the face as reward for years of functioning as free marketing for GW's games.

Of other websites and fan communities turned into timid little mice, run by brown-nosing sycophants trying desperately not step on a hidden land-mine with a company that doesn't give a flying poo about them, and that will send that C&D letter condemning them just as surely the moment someone errs. It's something I've seen happen to several small communities, the change discernible, and the arguments caused by it and to the overall detriment of everyone that was part of that community.

Of trying to take ownership of the likes of 'space marine', and of creatures from mythology, of basic geometric shapes. Of then exhibiting cunning and dishonesty in attempting to take legal ownership of old artwork ("oh..sorry we lost the bit of paper where you said we owned everything in your painting")

And not only of being a 'bully', and using their weight to push around the 'little guy', but also generally just stifling creativity and art that has sprung from their games. In the purest terms its an antithesis of everything that the company once stood for, and is the sign more than anything else of GW's transformation into a bloated, corporate entity for which the prospect of doing what it does well, and for 'arts sake', has been well and truly eclipsed by the need to pander to sales departments and shareholders.

And who actually wants these things listed above? For me it is all about a legal department that has been given far too much free reign in trying to justify its existence. If this aggressive action stops (I think Howard A Treesong used a great adjective for it when he described it as 'toxic'), and this action costs GW a lot of money for no appreciable benefit, then perhaps someone in upper management with their finger on the pulse will decide that a change of tact is needed; of trying to cater to the fanbase, rather than dictate to it, of making it inclusive and to let the GW hobby grow.

Personally I think it's about time someone holds a hand up to them and says "no", or plants a staff in the ground (on a thin stone bridge, above a gaping chasm) and tells them they can't pass for that matter! I think the analogy is fitting.. if they get a bloodied nose from trying to flippantly crush CHS (who, lets be honest, really couldn't have been causing any discernibles harm to the company's sales) then perhaps everyone, maybe even GW themselves in the long run, will come out of it the better.

Anyway guys, let's try and get the thread back on topic.

Perhaps we could talk about the moral background of GW vs CH in a separate thread.

Man. None of you guys in Chicago could go to the hearings?

 kronk wrote:
Man. None of you guys in Chicago could go to the hearings?

None of them wanted to be bored to tears.

Dakka Dakka got a shout out it appears:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?32996-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Trial

I guess I might as well copy & paste the pertinent info from over there:

BoLS wrote:The trial is underway in Chicago in open court.

Trial Location and Schedule

U. S. District Court
219 S. Dearborn St., Chicago, IL 60604
Tel: 312-435-5684

Judge Matthew F. Kennelly - Courtroom 2103

The Court sets aside the following dates for trial in this case:
June 3, 2013 (a.m. session - jury selection; p.m. session - trial),
June 4-7, 2013, June 10-11, 2013, and, if needed for closing arguments, the morning of June 12, 2013.

The trial day typically will extend from 9:45 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. and from 1:30 or 1:45 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., with morning and afternoon breaks. The Court notes that this is longer than its typical trial day. The Court reserves the right to extend any given trial day to 5:30 if warranted in order to complete the trial within the dates set aside.

Trial Summary

Jury selection is completed, and the trial is underway. Both sides have completed Opening Statements, and the first witness is on the stand:

Alan Merrett - Head of Games Workshop IP

Mr. Merrett's testimony was hours in length, initially focused on explaining Games Workshop's business to the jury. Some highlights from his testimony:

-A Realm of Battle board was pulled out to show the jury to help explain what wargaming is.

-Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being "infinitely customizable".

-Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".

-It was explained that Games workshop uses no traditional advertising outside of word of mouth and social media based online communications. Customers could simply google for their products and find thriving communities of eager fans on websites such as "Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls".

-Warhammer 40,000 was described to the jury as "Warhammer Fantasy in space", along with describing the Eldar as "Space Elfs", along with other "space" factions such as "Space Orcs".

-The Dark Eldar were described as "spikey, evil, and every other evil cliche".

-The Tau were described as "modern sci-fi; more traditional sci-fi" in appearance, as opposed to the archaic aesthetic of the other ranges.

Testimony is ongoing.

BoLS wrote:
-Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being "infinitely customizable".

isn't that a contradiction from earlier in the case? that they didn't produce a game, but rather that the game was just a supplement to their miniatures manufacturing business? [spikes hair, dons terrible blue suit, "OBJECTION!"]

-Mr. Merrett described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop event that allowed customers to perform their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".

oh that one's goign to win a lot of points

-Warhammer 40,000 was described to the jury as "Warhammer Fantasy in space", along with describing the Eldar as "Space Elfs", along with other "space" factions such as "Space Orcs".

okay.. so... did this really happen? did they describe X as a y with an extra protrusion from the middle?

oh gods above, why can't we have a live-stream or some transcripts? This is what, day 2? and we've already struck PR gold?

So, let me get this straight, GW´s head of IP, which one must assume was heavily coached prior to his testimony, was scripted to define how uniquely his IP is, using 2 essentially universal words used in every sci fy and fantasy genre out there "space elves"?.

Reality does top fiction.

Oh how I could wish that the Jury ask the court to visit DakkaDakka to verify the truth of Alan Merretts words.

What an eyeopener that would be, "eager fans" indeed.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Oh how I could wish that the Jury ask the court to visit DakkaDakka to verify the truth of Alan Merretts words.

What an eyeopener that would be, "eager fans" indeed.

Cheers

Andrew

I wonder how crapping their pants in court would effect the plaintiff's case.

If the transcripts cost, could Dakka set up a payment method, so we could all contribute to buy them and get them posted here?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
If the transcripts cost, could Dakka set up a payment method, so we could all contribute to buy them and get them posted here?

Cheers

Andrew

The transcripts are unlikely to be available at all until well after the trial ends, and probably the decision will be known. I expect a lot of the interest to dry up at that point, one way or another.

But no - DakkaDakka (the website) won't be coordinating payments for that purpose.

-It was explained that Games workshop uses no traditional advertising outside of word of mouth and social media based online communications. Customers could simply google for their products and find thriving communities of eager fans on websites such as "Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls".

I wonder if GW will suddenly realize that they need marketing. Also, they use social media? Really?

 Enigwolf wrote:
Also, they use social media? Really?

Do C&D letters count?

 Enigwolf wrote:

-It was explained that Games workshop uses no traditional advertising outside of word of mouth and social media based online communications. Customers could simply google for their products and find thriving communities of eager fans on websites such as "Dakka Dakka and Bell of Lost Souls".

I wonder if GW will suddenly realize that they need marketing. Also, they use social media? Really?

The individual store Facebook pages are "social media". They are set up by the main offices in the UK, who have posting privileges, and expected to be maintained by the staff at the shops.
GW has "regional" Twitter feeds(ex: GW North America having its own Twitter feed), and I'm fairly sure that GW counts their "White Dwarf Daily"--which commonly gets posted to the local shop Facebook pages--as a form of "social media".

 cerbrus2 wrote:
Im not against GW in all this or CHS. For the most part GW are the Backbone for most if not all tabletop miniatures, And company's like CHS make there living off of that back bone. As do the hundreds of YouTube channels, podcasts and Forums, dedicated to wargaming I am against the aggressive nature that GW uses in these cases though.

I am worried about the implications of what would happen if GW does loose the case of Copyright though. I'm finding it hard to word at the moment but I guess the easiest thing to say would be "Better the devil you know"

*Shrug*

I used to feel that Ral Partha was 'the backbone'.

They've been gone, what, twelve years?

I do not think that this is at all likely to bring down GW.

And, if GW did go down... something else would become 'the backbone'.

Also... at this point I consider Reaper Miniatures to be the backbone. But then... I think that they feel like the old Ral Partha....

When I am looking for a miniature Reaper is the first place that I look at, and often the last as well.

The Auld Grump

Alan Merrett - Head of Games Workshop IP:
Games Workshop was described as being producers of "Toy Soldiers" and their game systems as being "infinitely customizable".

To which CH may now respond:
We agree, GW game systems are infinitely customizable. And while you must first purchase he baseline GW product, GW provides very limited customization parts or kits.
We offer our customers a product that allows greater customization of the baseline product in the same way that automotive aftermarket producers create body kits, spoilers, wings, and mechanical upgrade parts for your baseline automobile. This includes exact match non-OEM repair/replacement parts for every model of American made car.
Would you members of the jury suggest that the Big 3 in Detroit can shutdown any of these companies that make aftermarket products simply because they are compatible with Detroit's specific baseline product?

(all you need is 1 gearhead or rice-boy on the jury and GW is toast)

Can GW run away from the trial if things go South?
Would a "Your Honor we decided to drop our complain and tell CHS how sorry we are that we made such a horrible mistake suing them." still work?

I don't think CHS would fall for it just in case GW comes knocking later on when pro bono lawyers are gone but would the judge allow it?

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Can GW run away from the trial if things go South?
Would a "Your Honor we decided to drop our complain and tell CHS how sorry we are that we made such a horrible mistake suing them." still work?

I don't think CHS would fall for it just in case GW comes knocking later on when pro bono lawyers are gone but would the judge allow it?

M.

The trial is underway because settling out-of-court failed as an option.

If GW admits their mistake and throws the entire trial (won't happen), it's very likely the judge would rule in favor of Chapterhouse with prejudice. GW won't be able to file another complaint primarily because they essentially admit defeat in this matter.

Regardless, it won't happen.