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from my experience being a juror in the UK, the jury will be instructed not to talk about or reserch the case but I don't see why the various parties shouldn't be able to talk about it..

Chicago is only about 2.5 hours away for me, and I have the time to go there for parts of the trial, but sadly no money :(

Oh well, we'll hear about things soon I'm assuming.

For the layman who doesn't fully understand the implications of what could come out of this trial (me!), could anyone spell out what the effect might on the wider wargaming industry, and the customer for that matter?

i.e. looking at an extreme result, in favour of either GW or Chapterhouse, what might the knock-on effects be?

I'm going to break this trial down in to what I see are three separate elements: trademarks, aftermarket parts, and new models.

Trademarks ("Shoulder Pads for Space Marines")
GW is saying that CHS unfairly used GW's trademarks to advertise CHS's products, in an way that could be or was intended to be misleading. CHS is likely to win, or at least not 'lose', on these claims. There is no real evidence that a sensible customer would have been confused; there were copious
'XX is a trademark of games workshop' notices, and CHS changed the offending product's names when the lawsuit began. Worst case for CHS, they get a token fine. Likely case for GW is that the judge finds a lot of GW's claimed marks invalid(?); their claims to 'plasma' and 'halberd' most certainly, but also things like 'Imperial Guard' or 'Star Fox' might also lose protection. Worst case for GW is that they lose some of their strong marks, 'Space Marine' in particular. This judgement would be fairly specific to the CHS/GW case.


Aftermarket Parts (Shoulder Pads, Heads, Weapons)
GW is saying that they own copyright on the universe of 40k. Not just on the works they have actually produced, but the ones which are inspired by their universe that they have yet to produce. In particular, they have numerous drawings of space marine shoulder pads, but don't produce them in miniature form.
Can a CHS sculptural work infringe on a GW drawn work? Does 'inspired by' necessarily mean 'derivative from'? Are parts 'designed to fit' or 'designed to match' necessarily infringing? Does the combination of a few non-protectable elements, used within a particular context, create a protectable expression?
This is a complicated issue with wider ramifications, not just for GW but for the wider industry of art, literature and film. What would happen if all the artistic work that went into space marine armour was considered obvious/generic/derivative and thus otherwise unprotectable? You could have games or film studios producing a Space Marine movie without needing to purchase a license from GW. Wider ramifications: Miniatures companies could produce entire ranges of models looking near-identical to Star Wars Storm Troopers without a license, and Lucas/(Disney) could do nothing about it.

If GW could win ownership of the particular shape and fit of the generic blank Space Marine Shoulder Pad, they would have more confidence in going after other companies who are producing similar parts. Similarly for rhino and drop pod doors. If CHS win, they can keep doing what they are doing.
For these parts, it seems unlikely that GW can claim uniqueness of design after the copyright office rejected their application, and GW seems only likely to prevent the production of specific logos on these shoulder pads. I think it is possible they might prevail on eg Templars or Salamanders shoulder pads.

As for the new models... on a case by case basis. Personally I hope that GW wins on things like the True-scale space marines and the Doomseer, because I think the consequences of allowing such things would be dire. The doomseer doesn't explicitly copy any single piece of GW art, but taken as a whole it is clearly meant to be a GW model. If things like this are allowed, then it is a short step to producing entire kits of OmegaMarines which, each very subtly different from any particular GW space marine miniature or artwork, is nonetheless interchangeable with a real GW marine. Then people start producing Storm Troopers with slight helmet variations, or SS Enterprises with slight changes in angles...

(If a real lawyer thinks this is wrong I'll be happy to delete it)

I'll admit, I want ot see CHS do a clean sweep of GW and get that worst case scenario going: The sad fact is that IP is reaching the point of becoming a psychosis and is now doing the exact opposite of what things like Berne were intended to do. Seeing GW swing would be just a crack in the wall, but it's still a crack, and the bigger the better.


And if you don;t think that Hollywood could make a SM movie without GW... I point you to 'Transmorphers'.

The concept that an entity (corporation,, artist, what have you) might not have 'ownership' of its intellectual properties across media (that an author of a book doesn't automatically own the 'movie rights' or the producers of a television show don't have the 'game rights') without first producing something based on said IP within that media-- well, that could be staggering. It opens fanfiction of non-literary works to potential publication, allows the sale of animated GiFs of famous works without licensing... all sorts of stuff that would make the wider internetted world cheer and whoop, open the floodgates of cross-media 'ripoffs' and possibly cause the complete colapse of the current IP ownership paradigm.

It could be big, if people are actually taking note of it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I'll admit, I want ot see CHS do a clean sweep of GW and get that worst case scenario going: The sad fact is that IP is reaching the point of becoming a psychosis and is now doing the exact opposite of what things like Berne were intended to do. Seeing GW swing would be just a crack in the wall, but it's still a crack, and the bigger the better.


And if you don;t think that Hollywood could make a SM movie without GW... I point you to 'Transmorphers'.

There is a bit of a difference between Transmorphers and making an actual space marine movie. As I understand it, movies like transmorphers get away by using a suitably generic concept (giant robots), and generic or pun-laden titles, to get out of any direct infringement accusations. I'm talking about the absurd case that some people in this thread seem to be advocating, where the design of a Space Marine or Optimus Prime is deemed to be 'functional' and thus can be used anywhere without license.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Chapter House.

Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

I'll take the cop out answer of both but my opinion that they have a right to produce add on kits is the cake... them proving it in a court of law at little to no cost to themselves but at tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars to GW is the icing on that cake.

A bit of both.

I believe that GW's actions against CH and other small companies have exceeded their actual rights, and worked to suppress a legitimate market in add-on parts, which would benefit the user.

It took huge balls by Chapter House to stand up to GW. It turns out that GW's case is much weaker than claimed.

Thus, I shall be pleased if GW are hoist by their own petard. They will be taught a lesson, and parts companies will be more free to provide the after-market bits that people want and GW don't make.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?

1.) I do not have the skill to sculpt. I'm not paying a prof sculptor to make me parts at $5/helmet or more for certain parts, like custom pauldrons or alternate backpacks
2.) I like variarion. GW isn't offering a bits service or the depth of variation to the parts I'm looking for
3.) I may not actually like a fair number of the designs released by GW, either in general, or when it comes to certain models, or certain models within certain roles
4.) I might be immensely lazy and want a tru-scale army without having to go through the effort of converting everything over myself
5.) I'm not all that creative. I know I hate GW's bonewsords for tyranids (seriously, i've gotten used to the guns, but actual SWORDS on tyranids.... it looks stupid to me. really stupid) and a lack of my personal creativity and lack of appreciation for GW options for gear means I want to see/use stuff from other places.
These are just the reasons that hit me offhand before wanting to rip into GW and the whole grab your torch and pitchforks thing over GW's policies, which I'm not going to launch into, or consider in answering your question. But, to answer it, yes, for the above itemised reasons, i'd like to see CHS win

The funny thing is that they closed down their bits store that largely prevented most indy bits sellers existence because it wasn't profitable enough. How many years worth of funding the bits portion of the business in its entirety would the court and legal fees GW from this trial funded?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

When it started I was all for GW since it seemed like a legitimate claim. The longer it goes on however the weaker that claim is, and there is all that business about trying to force artists to hand over their artwork and hiding evidence.

Now I am hoping they lose and have to think before sending more C&D letters about trademarks they don't own.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

I have no real spite for GW... Been collecting (since 2nd) and playing (off and on) for a long time. I don't like a lot of their practices and choices, but that happens with a lot of companies. That being said, I have no issue with other party manufacturers/casters making add-on kits and models representing never-before-molded stuff that GW neglects. I feel that GW "stole" a lot of their ideas from many other previous works. Why shouldn't others be allowed to do the same? I put quotes on the stealing part because I don't believe it is theft for someone to do as CHS does. Many ideas in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy genres have been put forth way earlier than GW and other companies could have claimed original conception. I also don't feel that they should have a strangle-hold on the term Space Marine, I found the whole Spots the Space Marine thing pretty darn despicable on their part. I am rooting for CHS in case, and by proxy, the many other small-guys that want to add to and enhance the hobby!

 warboss wrote:
The funny thing is that they closed down their bits store that largely prevented most indy bits sellers existence because it wasn't profitable enough. How many years worth of funding the bits portion of the business in its entirety would the court and legal fees GW from this trial funded?

To be fair keeping every bit for every model you produce available, in stock and on hand at all times is costly and wasteful. The parts service that GW replaced their old bits service with is anaemic in every way, but I do understand why they did it. They just, in typical GW style, swung that pendulum too far. Rather than offering a healthy middle ground they just cut things that didn’t need cutting leaving us with pointless overpriced bitz packs.

 jonolikespie wrote:
When it started I was all for GW since it seemed like a legitimate claim. The longer it goes on however the weaker that claim is, and there is all that business about trying to force artists to hand over their artwork and hiding evidence.

I think Chapter House had a lot of cheek and a mighty big chip on their shoulder when they had things like “Ultramarine Shoulder Pads” and “Flesh Tearer Shoulder Pads” and other various GW names on their website, but when GW started claiming implied rights to arrows and skulls I think the wind was taken out of GW’s sales, and by that stage CH had stopped using those types of terms on their website.

Personally I am rooting for chapterhouse because they make some products I really like. Overall I feel their presence is a positive for the wargaming community because they offer some good designs that give our armies variety and sometimes utility.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

It is actually a bit of both.

3rd party bits sellers are enhancing GW's product and benefiting all three parties involved. Morally, I feel Chapterhouse is justified.

The aftermarket car parts argument has been mentioned numerous times. Legally, I feel Chapterhouse is justifed.

As for spite, yes. Games Workshop shut down Raging Heroes's Lammasu head over a ridiculous claim only to re-release their inferior gak Lammasu a few months later. Raging Heroes backed down when their product wasn't even related to GW products in the slightest. I'm happy Chapterhouse isn't backing down and is fighting the good fight. GW needs to be put in their place.

In a sort of deviation from spite, I also want all those armchair lawyers that derailed all the Chapterhouse threads on Dakka and all over other forums to finally begiven a reason to shut up. Chapterhouse didn't pull any RomeoRages, but they lost their cool several times as people derailed their threads, It was annoying, it was off-topic, and it was distracting to customers. #firstworldproblems

That being said, freedom to produce parts is more important to me, of course. I have bought Chapterhouse products and wish for them to continue producing products,
So both, leaning heavily towards the right to produce.

I'm just in it for the chaos, really. There is nothing as depressing and horrible as a stagnant status quo. Change, or the possibility of change, are what makes life worth living. And GW losing this case, even if it's only a theoretical possibility (they can always withdraw the complaint, I was told?) is something worth watching and speculating over.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?

No spite. But creative work in tabletop gaming can't be done, if some bully lawyers try to drag anyone to court using the concept of a halberd, grenade launcher, Imperial Guard, future marine, Moorcock's Chaos star etc. All veteran sculptors including the ones at GW worked with inspiration from others, that's how it is done. A lawyer feeling like he invented God himself should not end creativity in the hobby. Or any second market. A bully lawyer doesn't compensate for bad sculpts or abysmal marketing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?
.

Because what GW will do if they win to all the smaller companies producing genuine quality '40k compatible' models is unthinkable.

You think they're legal bullies now?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?

I'm mostly for CHS because of the way GW has run the case; so much of it doesn't sit well with me; like trying to get copyright signatures retrospectively, not mentioning the Copyright rejection, the vague and overzealous case itself and the copyright bullying in general. Their bad/cynical business decisions of late haven't really enamoured me to them either.

I certainly also like the idea of 3rd party figures and parts though, as I'd certainly use 3rd party stuff if it becomes more 'acceptable', and whilst I'm unlikely to be doing much conversion work it's nice to know the products are there for those that want it. As GW has dropped the bits business I think it's unfair for them to deny anyone else the ability to make a go of it.

Plus as a Brit, we pretty much also root for the underdog

 azreal13 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?
.

Because what GW will do if they win to all the smaller companies producing genuine quality '40k compatible' models is unthinkable.

You think they're legal bullies now?

GW can't possibly win on all their points. And in any case, I can't really see a judgement in their favour stopping other bits people, like Kromlech, who are careful to use more generic descriptions (and produce more creative models, in general).

I think this case is more about general intimidation, rather than specific products. GW are picking on Chapterhouse, because Chapterhouse are much more aggressive about using GW terminology on their site.

From a practical perspective GW must loose because their claims can potentially put a stranglehold in the entire genre and more, claiming things like elves, sculls, space marines belonging to you has far wider implications than just the garage kit manufacturers making a living by augmenting GWs models, if I ever wanted to make a sci fi wargame focusing on powered armoured infantry and cal it "Space Marine Wars" its my right to do so and GW should not have any right in dictating me if I could do it, likewise the title itself is unprotectable and I could not enforce it to others because its a descriptive of a common use word, the example stands on why GW should lose, their recent aggression on "Spots the space marine" is a strong indicative on how far they are willing to go in "protecting their IP".

I do not want another "apple" especially in the miniature wargames genre.

Chapterhouse is not "aggressive" in their products, they are at worse honest, they make garage upgrade kits for GW line and do not hide behind their finger, if they recasted GW's parts, GW would have a case, but what they do is creating their unique sculpts intended to be compatible and to augment GWs products, what next, GW starting a resin bases line copyrighting "25mm round", "Sand" and going after microart and secret weapons?

Personally, I would rather see the giant that has ripped of, "or has been inspired" by everything creating nothing of their own be put into place be stripped of all the invalid claims they have over things that are not belonging to them and learn some humility, then they might thing twice in claiming millennium old symbols belonging to them, or saying thing like tyranids not been inspired by aliens.

Well, it looks like we will have to wait until the jurors get bored and start posting here.

Regardless of the outcome of this case, GW has lost. The case has forced GW to change is business practice. GW has become more secretive, and now does not include unreleased models in its codicies. The fact that it has included such models since time immemorial says alot. The other models help flesh out the world, and give more experienced hobbyists a chance to convert things and be creative. GW will also have to devote more resources to copyrighting and trademarking their products.

As much as I would like CH to win, I think that GW will win on several counts.

I'm interested in a CHS win because the idea of 3rd party accessories is a common one here in the US. It's prevalant in automotive and motorcycles (ever see a VW/Porshe conversion kit?) and other industries. I don't see why it is a dire threat should it happen in miniatures gaming.

Also, GW's heavy-handed copyright claims need to be checked. It's one thing to protect your IP but it's quite another to assert ownership over things you really don't own.

IMHO not a lawyer opinion:
I hope both sides win what they need to and get punished for what they did wrong. GW should protect it's corporate rights and establish it's IP boundries. None of this half-cocked C&D to everyone and their grandmother unless grandma is Russian and well...

As for CH they shouldn't have worded things as they did and should pull product if there are official GW/FW product. But I will hope the bits/conversions teach GW a valuable lesson: the stormguppy was ugly and I wasn't having it. I was looking at another marine army and I was leaning towards SW BUT the CH SR kit made me fall in love with blangles. I started to make a Knights of Blood chapter kitbashing SM/CSM and so I bought two SRs, a megaforce, split two DV sets, and metal boxes. Then when CSM were updated I bought more chaos kits (maulerfiend/helldrake etc) to make both the KoB and a Khorne army. Hundreds of dollars that GW and my FLGS got because of CH.

Do I think all of CH is great? No. GWs? No. The market tends to itself as I vote with my wallet, I buy what I like and GW needed CH to get my money for all those other kits.

I think that had GW simply been proactive about creating in-demand models and offering in-demand bits services they would not be in this current situation.

Not having Thunderwulf Cavalry,combi-weapons, Tervigons, and Tyrannofexes on codex release basically forced people into the secondary markets and created the niche that CH and others now exist within.

GW could man up to the market doling out this 'punishment' for complacency and outcompete those like CH, but instead attempt to proverbially run to their babysitter, spewing C&D letters the whole way.

I'm rooting for CH 'whole clothe' because of the truly ridiculous GW behavior that this trial process has revealed. Finding out that they do not actually own the copyrights to stuff that they've aggressively asserted copyright over is incompetence and disingenuous on a big scale.

It is one thing to allow your niche in a market to decay, as GW has done over the last 5 or so years. It is quite another to allow the biggest crybaby, just because they also happen to be the biggest single operator, to dictate how the entire market stagnates when the 'damages' they're accumulating are primarily the result of their own uncompetitive behavior and lack of vision.

All GW had to do to beat CHS was to release their 'infringing' items themselves.
If CHS complained, GW would have the original design to point to, and say it was their idea in the first place. CHS would have to back down, or keep selling alongside GW's identical items.
If GW could do that at a lower price, CHS goes down.

But no, GW decline to sell the items people want, and buy from CHS, and its ilk.
GW's legal behemoth rumbles into action, and here we are.

So, I'm rooting for CHS, and anyone else making Striking Scorpions with a full range of weapon options and Farseer jetbike riders. If GW don't, someone else will.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Those wanting Chapter House to win: Is it out of spite towards or because you think they (and companies similar to them) have a genuine right to produce the types of things they produce?



[EDIT]: And while I realise that "Why can't it be both?" is technically a valid answer to that question, but I'd like to know which reason is more important to you.

I wouldn't say sprite. But GW have just become too big, nasty and aggressive. They are toxic to the well being of the wider hobby because of how aggressively and widely they cast the net to cover anything they want control of whether they own it or not, as in the case of many generic things.

CHS made a stand, finally someone got legal protection and fought back. The action against CHS came after a period of GW sending C&Ds to a number of out favourite miniatures companies telling them to take down figures, and several fan websites came under fire. It's not spite that makes me want to see GW lose badly, it's the need to see our hobby survive and grow unfettered by this huge company trying to control everything.