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Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 TedNugent wrote:
If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.

Kind of like their panic attack over a 5++ Cybork when any marine that wanted one could pick up a 3++ for peanuts.

It really is aggravating tbh. 3+ sure seems to be a number that orks are allergic to.

The core game rules really were better in 5th. Anyway, that's an aside.

I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.


Definitely, I feel like they've overcorrected Nobz/Nob Bikerz ever since they their heyday back in 5th ed. with how wound allocation worked and painboyz gave out both FNP and 5+ invulns to the unit. Now they feel like a glass cannon without the cannon part. I'm hoping that if we don't have some upgrade in toughness that at least we can properly trade with our units in the new codex, it's really crappy feeling that so many of our core units are anemic in terms of damage when you have this sudden boost in toughness with transhuman, -1D abilities for marines while in other cases it's competing and losing against hyper-cost effective units that DE have.
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






 TedNugent wrote:
If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.

I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.


The Beastie Boyz will probably have a Sabotage stratagem


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 addnid wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.

I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.


The Beastie Boyz will probably have a Sabotage stratagem



They will definitely Make Some Noise while they Fight for Their Right to Party with the rest of Thrakka's Intergalactic Waaagh.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





 TedNugent wrote:
If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.

Kind of like their panic attack over a 5++ Cybork when any marine that wanted one could pick up a 3++ for peanuts.

It really is aggravating tbh. 3+ sure seems to be a number that orks are allergic to.

The core game rules really were better in 5th. Anyway, that's an aside.

I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.


You can actually get a mob of boyz up to a 3+ if you want. Just takes a bit of work. Arboyz and lootit then cover (I would recommend having a blob of smashagunz near the boyz as a target the enemy can't ignore). You can get cover from 18" away with a trait, or even go badmoons. If you can find a piece of cover big enough to cover most of the mob you can actually get yourself up to a 2+ save with the badmoons spell.

Is it practical? ZOG NO! Is it funny? ZOG YES!
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I wouldn't mind it if nobz came back with the you can evenly distribute wounds , would make em good.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy





 Jidmah wrote:
 addnid wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.

I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
The Beastie Boyz will probably have a Sabotage stratagem
They will definitely Make Some Noise while they Fight for Their Right to Party with the rest of Thrakka's Intergalactic Waaagh.
I´ll loose No Sleep till Beastsnaggaz show. Ordinary Boyz are fine as long as they are reasonably cheap. Not all units are about maximum killing efficiency imo. Just flooding an objective and being a nuisance to get rid of is enough.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Given GW's MO, Snaggas are gonna replace boys, as they want people to buy new kits (Most old players already have 120+ boys bought and painted).

Expect them to be intercessor like. Boyz are still probably useable but I think a full swap over will be optimal.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Sheridan, WY

tulun wrote:
Given GW's MO, Snaggas are gonna replace boys, as they want people to buy new kits (Most old players already have 120+ boys bought and painted).

Expect them to be intercessor like. Boyz are still probably useable but I think a full swap over will be optimal.


During Friday's reveal at Warhammer Fest, they said, "This new codex completely changes the way orks play. Think *Drukhari*. We also want players to be able to play any type of army they like, whether that's a horde of boyz, walkers, vehicles, etc."

So no. I don't think they will replace boyz.

They are getting everyone to buy the new models by pre-releasing the codex a couple of months early with the limited edition box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 15:12:47


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




I doubt the box will be two months earlier than the codex.

Horde of boyz could easily mean horde of snagga boyz

I mean by all accounts you can technically use loads of tac marines, people just don't. If they want people to buy 60-90 snaggas, they'll definitely be better.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean people mainly play goff skar boys as boy spam now. So unless snagga boys are vastly over costed people are going to use them... how many normal non-skar boy spam lists do you see now? It’s also a new kit which gets the benefit of any new wpns on the sprue soo another notch against normal boys.

I think boyz will be fine in the short term for the rest of this edition mainly becuase skar boys strat (and ghaz buffing) will directly compete against snagga boys... but ultimately what kills snagga boy spam overtaking normal boys is the greentide strat is currently only usable by boys. Making normal boys much more efficient and reliable then snagga boys will be... this is of course only viable if GW doesn’t change the strat to include snagga boyz... that strat is the main reason boy spam works.. there are countless times I’ve had a game where someone failed to completely wipe out my 30 man boy unit and I just bring it back to full strength.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 15:49:15


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Sheridan, WY

gungo wrote:
I mean people mainly play goff skar boys as boy spam now. So unless snagga boys are vastly over costed people are going to use them... how many normal non-skar boy spam lists do you see now? It’s also a new kit which gets the benefit of any new wpns on the sprue soo another notch against normal boys.

I think boyz will be fine in the short term for the rest of this edition mainly becuase skar boys strat (and ghaz buffing) will directly compete against snagga boys... but ultimately what kills snagga boy spam overtaking normal boys is the greentide strat is currently only usable by boys. Making normal boys much more efficient and reliable then snagga boys will be... this is of course only viable if GW doesn’t change the strat to include snagga boyz... that strat is the main reason boy spam works.. there are countless times I’ve had a game where someone failed to completely wipe out my 30 man boy unit and I just bring it back to full strength.


Again, orks will play like a totally different army. All of the strats you're referencing will likely not exist anymore. Skarboyz definitely won't exist in the same capacity. It's being replaced with Snagga boyz. Ustoppable green tide will be replaced with a completely new mechanic.

Also, evil suns horde is still very popular, and just recently came in third place at the W4 GT in Wisconsin.
   
Made in nl
Been Around the Block




tulun wrote:
... We also want players to be able to play any type of army they like, whether that's a horde of boyz, walkers, vehicles, etc." ...


I so hope this is true, deff dreads and killa kanz are such cool looking minis. I just hope a detachment crammed full of them can be viable. Sure, maybe some support units are required, but I dont want to waste points on making them viable.

All edits: emojis not allowed??

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 16:46:22


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





With the codex I'm expecting us to get our doctrine type thing as a WAAAGH!!! mechanic, hopefully 1 turn buff but most likely somethin like big waaagh from aos, or the lamer set turn bonuses.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






BDBurrow wrote:
gungo wrote:
I mean people mainly play goff skar boys as boy spam now. So unless snagga boys are vastly over costed people are going to use them... how many normal non-skar boy spam lists do you see now? It’s also a new kit which gets the benefit of any new wpns on the sprue soo another notch against normal boys.

I think boyz will be fine in the short term for the rest of this edition mainly becuase skar boys strat (and ghaz buffing) will directly compete against snagga boys... but ultimately what kills snagga boy spam overtaking normal boys is the greentide strat is currently only usable by boys. Making normal boys much more efficient and reliable then snagga boys will be... this is of course only viable if GW doesn’t change the strat to include snagga boyz... that strat is the main reason boy spam works.. there are countless times I’ve had a game where someone failed to completely wipe out my 30 man boy unit and I just bring it back to full strength.


Again, orks will play like a totally different army. All of the strats you're referencing will likely not exist anymore. Skarboyz definitely won't exist in the same capacity. It's being replaced with Snagga boyz. Ustoppable green tide will be replaced with a completely new mechanic.

Also, evil suns horde is still very popular, and just recently came in third place at the W4 GT in Wisconsin.


His point still remains. No matter how much optimism you pour into it, there will only be enough room for one troops unit with slugga and choppa outside of edge cases - and GW will make sure that this unit will not be the one everyone already has dozens of at home, just like they did for the primaris troops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 17:07:25


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





You're forgettin that these are probably Cawl-Pattern choppas and sluggas.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Sheridan, WY

His point still remains. No matter how much optimism you pour into it, there will only be enough room for one troops unit with slugga and choppa outside of edge cases - and GW will make sure that this unit will not be the one everyone already has dozens of at home, just like they did for the primaris troops.


I'd rather be an optimist than make largely negative assumptions.

Assumptions made;

1) Snagga boyz will be troops
2) Preferred loadout of snagga boyz will be slugga/choppa
3) Preferred loadout of new boyz will be slugga/choppa
4) Troop size will be the same
5) Both units will be obsec

I'm not saying that these assumptions are wrong. I'm just saying that they are assumptions and that we have no idea how this is going to play out.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
With the codex I'm expecting us to get our doctrine type thing as a WAAAGH!!! mechanic, hopefully 1 turn buff but most likely somethin like big waaagh from aos, or the lamer set turn bonuses.


I'd prefer a Big WAAAGH! style of having points to add up to certain buffs/abilities rather than a set turn bonus, even if they stack, just because it feels that it's too static and orderly for an army that's isn't supposed to be strictly organized into combined arms like marines or other armies are. It would also give opportunities for having Warbosses/Ghazzy have a baseline impact on how much is generated while they're alive.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BDBurrow wrote:
His point still remains. No matter how much optimism you pour into it, there will only be enough room for one troops unit with slugga and choppa outside of edge cases - and GW will make sure that this unit will not be the one everyone already has dozens of at home, just like they did for the primaris troops.


I'd rather be an optimist than make largely negative assumptions.

Assumptions made;

1) Snagga boyz will be troops
2) Preferred loadout of snagga boyz will be slugga/choppa
3) Preferred loadout of new boyz will be slugga/choppa
4) Troop size will be the same
5) Both units will be obsec

I'm not saying that these assumptions are wrong. I'm just saying that they are assumptions and that we have no idea how this is going to play out.


Safe assumptions imo.

I don't think their new battle box won't feature a troop. That's bad form if you can't take that box and just play a game of 40k, even at like 500 points.

And I'm not saying boys won't be viable -- just that Snaggas will be *better*. And better almost always means adoption.

That's why you see primaris, not old marines, in places like the troop slot.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Yes, assumption on the same level as that you will be hit by a car when you drive in the wrong direction on a highway during rush hour. Just because there is a slim chance of not getting hit doesn't mean that you should expect that you won't get hit.

GW has become very predictable in the last few years and everything is point to these orks being the new boyz.
1) They made a killing with primaris, proving that replacing decade old kits with slightly upgraded ones is a valid business strategy for them.
2) We know that these boyz are equipped with (cawl?)sluggas and choppas from the stream and preview. No other loadout has been shown.
3) A 20 strong unit with one nob is not going to be an elite choice.
4) As an elite choice they would just be another unit stepping on nobz, MANz and burna boyz' toes.
5) An elite choice would not be equipped with just sluggas and choppas.
6) The contents of the box set is advertised as a start of a new army and is guaranteed to be the combat patrol when the codex hits. Three squighog riders are not going to be a troops unit.
7) People have been crying for new boyz a lot. GW has learned that they make a lot of money if they answer these calls.

This is the same as people arguing "new boyz might be multi-posed and come in boxes of 20 for $30".
These are the new boyz, they might suck at first, but GW will tweak them so they'll eventually be played by everyone and then old boyz will be in the same situation as tactical marines, scouts, predators, land raiders, dreadnoughts and all the other iconic trueborn units that have gotten primaris equivalents.

If you can't read the writing on the wall, all I can say about that is "ignorance is a bliss".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 18:32:18


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Only way i see Snaggaboyz as elite is if those arent generic choppas, but powersword equivs.

20 models isnt unheard of for elites, Fulgurite Priests can goto 20 but nobody ever does because they dont fit in admech transports.
That being said i still severely doubt these are elites and not troops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 18:59:47


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Sheridan, WY

Time will definitely tell. I agree with a lot of your points. I will say though that 20 models is not some insane number for an elite unit. A full unit of tankbustas with bomb squigs is 21 models. Take out the squigs and you still have 15 models. Burnas 15. Kommandos 15. Even taking a look at the fast attack slot, stormboyz have a maximum squad size of 30. There could also be 2 units of 10 snagga boyz in the box.

All this being said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I think the snagga boyz will be troops, but I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't.

I don't believe this will be the combat patrol box, however. This is a "limited edition" box that will be available for a couple of months before they release the codex and rest of the line. This is purely a beast snagga box that contains *most* of the models from the new line. GW doesn't like to put new models in the combat patrol boxes.

I also don't think it's fair to compare orks to marines. Replacing 120 boyz does not have the same effect as 20 tac marines.

Time will tell.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 19:42:38


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I think they have to be troops, i remember them saying that you could run an entirely beast snagga army.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Sheridan, WY

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I think they have to be troops, i remember them saying that you could run an entirely beast snagga army.


You don't need troops to fill a detachment. See vanguard, spearhead, and outrider detachments. The new codex will also likely give us ways to create these detachments without the CP penalty, similar to Dark Angels and other factions.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




As much marketing talk as Gw said it will be a completely new codex.. the fact is they hype up every release like that. I still can show you videos when 8th Ed dropped Gw reps saying dead mobs will be competitive. Furthermore I have yet to see an army list completely revamped mid edition. No current codex has changed every strategem. Greentide is not going away, skar boyz will likely not go away. There was way more assumption in those statements saying those strats will be changed then anything I said. IMHO regular boyz will likely have its niche in 9th edition for now... but time will tell what direction they are going to push orks.
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver






With the discussion around snagga boys as a potentially superior troops choice over boys, I think it will ultimately come down to cost.

Assuming in a vacuum with no points a snagga is better, it undoubtedly should be more expensive. Then the question would be whether that improvement is justified in the increase in points. An Ork boy is generally overcosted as it is, and with nobs being the absolute upper limit in terms how how much a boy can be improved (while also being overcosted), how much can a snagga improve on the boy formula without bloating it's points cost?

An Ork boy is generally considered to be better than a grot in a vacuum, yet for 8th grots were the go to because they were cheap and had a good interaction with other units. Ork boys might still be the go to choice regardless of how good snaggas are, or we could go back to using grots all the time. Who knows.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Afrodactyl wrote:
With the discussion around snagga boys as a potentially superior troops choice over boys, I think it will ultimately come down to cost.

Assuming in a vacuum with no points a snagga is better, it undoubtedly should be more expensive. Then the question would be whether that improvement is justified in the increase in points. An Ork boy is generally overcosted as it is, and with nobs being the absolute upper limit in terms how how much a boy can be improved (while also being overcosted), how much can a snagga improve on the boy formula without bloating it's points cost?

An Ork boy is generally considered to be better than a grot in a vacuum, yet for 8th grots were the go to because they were cheap and had a good interaction with other units. Ork boys might still be the go to choice regardless of how good snaggas are, or we could go back to using grots all the time. Who knows.


It's possible that they rearrange the points a bit if they're trying to find a middle ground for the snaggas between boyz and nobz. Unfortunately, I think grots are likely to stay at 5, because that's apparently where GW is currently having their arbitrary points minimum at for units. Boyz can drop down to 7, and Snaggas can be around the 9-10 range depending on how much their stats are higher than boyz. Nobz are a real wild card, because they need to both kind of be either cheaper or tougher/stronger, which frankly I would much prefer the latter.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

Hey guys.

Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?

Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.

A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/21 05:08:50


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






BDBurrow wrote:
Time will definitely tell. I agree with a lot of your points. I will say though that 20 models is not some insane number for an elite unit. A full unit of tankbustas with bomb squigs is 21 models. Take out the squigs and you still have 15 models. Burnas 15. Kommandos 15. Even taking a look at the fast attack slot, stormboyz have a maximum squad size of 30.

Almost no elite units in 40k are that large and even if they are, they aren't just equipped with basic rank and file weaponry. Fast attack units? Yeah, there are some hordes among them, but elite horde unit is kind of an oxymoron. There is absolutely nothing elite about beast snagga boyz.

There could also be 2 units of 10 snagga boyz in the box.

In all the pictures there have been 19 boyz and 1 nob and we have two of the same mono-pose models placed next to each other so that they are clearly not two units. There might be a box of 20 with just one nob in it, but I heavily doubt that considering other similar units of 20 also come in boxes of 10. Most likely one of the 10 boyz will have the option to be built into a nob, but in this case your guess is as good as mine.

I don't believe this will be the combat patrol box, however. This is a "limited edition" box that will be available for a couple of months before they release the codex and rest of the line. This is purely a beast snagga box that contains *most* of the models from the new line. GW doesn't like to put new models in the combat patrol boxes.

They have put box set contents both in start collecting boxes and combat patrols (drukhari) and it fits all the requirements - it doesn't require a glass bowl to guess they add up to 50 PL, it has a HQ you can't double up on, a sergeant character and a troops units so you can play them out of the box.
It's also not relevant to the point I made, as they still market the box to be playable on its own. The only real unknowns are whether the nob is elite or HQ and whether the squig riders are elite or fast attack.

I also don't think it's fair to compare orks to marines. Replacing 120 boyz does not have the same effect as 20 tac marines.

GW replaced the entire marine line with primaris equivalents. The only things missing are chapter-specific units and planes.
Replacing minimum of 90 boyz with a minimum of 60 boyz to play orks will help making the army more popular in the long run.

Time will tell.

Sorry, with everything we know, there is nothing left for time to tell unless some very unlikely things are going to happen.
And for the record, playing the devil's advocate means contradicting a popular opinion to foster debate, not to be against popular opinion for the sake of it.

edit: Edited the post to make it more fact-based. For various reasons (you can probably guess some of them) people denying reality currently make me really mad. This has nothing to do with you though, so I should not direct my anger at you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?

Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.

A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++


If there was a way to get -1 damage, maybe, but I don't feel that just T8 4+/4++/5+++ is enough to warrant the investment. He still will be splatted by combat experts or anti-tank with sufficient RoF.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/21 07:29:59


 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






I also think the Beastie Boyz will replace existing boyz, and in a list with 0 boyz, only beastie biyz, well you can simply use boyz as "count as" beastie boyz, like 50/50 (10 BB models and 10 B models for a 20 BB squad).
No opponent will object, of that I am sure.

This way we still get tu use our regular boyz to cut the cost by half for setting up an efficient green tide. Because yes, the efficient green tide will be one made of BBoyz. It is very naive to think otherwise. If not at codex launch, then at the next CA point adjustment

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/21 07:56:07


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in dk
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Denmark

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?

Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.

A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++

I'm not sure that build would be worth it. A Boss just with Klaw or saw wouln't do a lot of damge on his own.

2000pts Da Blitza Boyz! (Orks) 50% painted.

My Ork P&M Blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/564900.page

Forge World Arkurian Pattern Stormblade:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558337.page 
   
 
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