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Are MSU warrior/ark and immortal squads really the way to go?

Has anyone stuck to the good old blocks of warriors, or was this a sigh of relief when Immortals got bumped to troops and that tactic was no longer needed to win?

I feel I am in the minority when building lists still including two bigger squads of warriors, and have yet to play any games - are they still as robust and effective (given their armor save drop).

I've been running this list recently with some success.



As far as the old phalanx of 4th it is truly gone. Necrons need a little more guile than they did back in their old heyday. That being said I find it quite effective to control midfield with my big brick of warriors. Using a Scarab screen they can be quite durable if positioned right. In the end they take a little more finesse than a simple marching advance. If this marching advance is what you are looking for 10 man squads of Tesla Immortals are probably the way to go. They are the Warriors from the old codex with a new gun and a 1pt discount.

With Necrons being as mobile as they are now, it's increasing harder to justify large groups of slow moving warriors.

Not to say that they don't have their uses, but with the great bonuses we get from MSU in this codex (Royal Courts, Night Scyythes, AV 13 Spam) people are less likely to want such a giant unit. Though, with the Phaeron(sp?) special rule and an orb, these blocks are pretty decent...but you're almost required to have both.

When I first started with the new Necrons I was fielding 15 man warrior units with a ress orb Phaeron Lord and a ghost ark for the regen ability. They were incredibly resilient.

Since then i have moved to more msu type lists, mainly because I have picked up a lot of the toys (wraiths, blades, stalkers etc...) and i want to try them all out.

Gangrel767 wrote:When I first started with the new Necrons I was fielding 15 man warrior units with a ress orb Phaeron Lord and a ghost ark for the regen ability. They were incredibly resilient.

Since then i have moved to more msu type lists, mainly because I have picked up a lot of the toys (wraiths, blades, stalkers etc...) and i want to try them all out.

I'm pretty much in this boat.

Our hq's and support elements are pretty expensive, so I find it hard to justify the cost of 20 warriors in leu of other things. As well, the more troop squads you have, the more crypteks you can have! Crypteks are soooo sexy...

I find the sweet spot of warriors to be maximum-filling a Ghost Ark (10 minus 1-2 Crypteks). The Res orb is not points efficient, so it's only worth it on special characters. I've had amazing luck with a pair of 9-man + LanceTek Ghost Arks. They have great survivability, and if anything tries to close to assault range, they will have to survive 35+ gauss shots to the face on the final push. And at range, you still have the 36" lance and 24" hull-mounted flayers. No matter what you shoot at, you are going to be able to get results.

Immortals are trickier. I like big squads with Veil Crypteks to shift between objectives. Immortals are tough against shooting, and an attached Lord usually pushes them up enough in combat resolution to avoid a break and sweeping advance.

. As well, the more troop squads you have, the more crypteks you can have! Crypteks are soooo sexy...

You still get 0-5 Crypteks regardless of how many troops you have, why would troop choices matter?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

. As well, the more troop squads you have, the more crypteks you can have! Crypteks are soooo sexy...

You still get 0-5 Crypteks regardless of how many troops you have, why would troop choices matter?

Naked crypeks (not attached to troops) are too pricey to leave wandering around on their own.

Randall Turner wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

. As well, the more troop squads you have, the more crypteks you can have! Crypteks are soooo sexy...

You still get 0-5 Crypteks regardless of how many troops you have, why would troop choices matter?

Naked crypeks (not attached to troops) are too pricey to leave wandering around on their own.

Nail on the head. You always wanna run teks in units.

Emperor awfulness wrote:The Res orb is not points efficient, so it's only worth it on special characters.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that one. If you are running warrior blobs then an orb is pretty much a must and will generally always win its points back in a game. Think of it this way: A blob of 15-20 T4 warriors with FNP that ignores AP 1&2, power weapons, and double strength wounds? For how many points? Yes please. However, I wouldn't put them in any squad with less than 10 dudes (unless we are talking lychguard). At that point then you start to lose out on efficiency.

Personally I think warrior blobs can still be fun and competitive. But yes, I would have to agree with all the fun new toys people are gonna want to try it out and with the way points start to add up MSU is the best way to do that. For me, I will stick with warrior blobs because I like a fluffy list and so far they haven't steered me wrong. The only downside is that they aren't too hot in cc. And having a 10+ unit of warriors get wiped because your lord isn't doing his job is pretty depressing.

Here's my justification for saying the Res Orb isn't worth the points:

For each wound a Warrior squad takes, they will fail the armor save 1/2 of the time. 2/3 of the time they will stay dead (fail RP). So they have a 1/3 chance of dying and staying dead for every wound they take. (4/12)

For each wound a Warrior squad with a Res Orb takes, they will fail the armor save 1/2 of the time. 1/2 of the time they will stay dead (fail RP). So they have a 1/4 chance of dying and staying dead (3/12).

So ultimately the Res Orb makes each warrior 1/12 more likely to survive a wound. Multiply that by the points cost of a warrior, and it gives you a "free" 13/12ths of a point for every warrior you have in the squad by saving them when they'd otherwise die. It'll only make you points after your 28th wound suffered by the squad. Spending the same number of points on 2 more warrior bodies will result in more warriors on the table until you've taken those 28 wounds, at which point it breaks even and slides towards the Res Orb being worth it.

A lot of people don't like looking at averages or statistics and blab about the dice being random blah blah blah. And "making its points back" isn't a great metric for 40k. But just buying more bodies on the table is virtually always a better way of toughening your squad than buying a Res Orb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll also mention that if you have Ghost Arks, it's better to have a few dead warriors every turn to take advantage of Repair Protocols.

I generally don't get too deep into the maths. I basically look at it this way: I rolled a 4. Hey I just saved 13pts whereas otherwise I would not have! Perhaps it has a psychological effect too. People tend to forget that also plays a part in 40k. Depends on how you look at it I suppose.

Maybe look at it this way: you have to roll exactly a 4 on RP 3 times on the same squad before the Res Orb saves you more warriors than just starting with 2 more in the first place.

The payback for ResOrbs isn't recovering the cost of the 13 point warriors. It's recovering the cost of the attached 180 point overlords, 50 point lords and 45 point crypteks. And initially I thought exactly like you did - until I realized this. Especially overlords. You have to roll a 4 on EL/RP something like 1/5th of a time to recover his cost. (Well... depends, phylactery etc, but you get the idea.)

No expensive attached characters, no real need for orbs. <shrug>

I tend to field both to be honest. i always have a small 5 man unit in a Ghost ark with a lanceTek.

usually leave a small 5 man warrior unit holding the hoem objective.

I still like to have a 20 man warrior blob with a Phearon/Orb. Throw in a Lightnign Field for counter charge and it can be a fun (though perhaps not overly competative) unit.

in apoc use a Monolith and jump that blob clear accross the table.

I'll agree: the more expensive/important the unit, the more necessary the ResOrb.
(eg. 5-10 Warriors/Immortals/Deathmarks = no, 5-10 Lychguard = yes... however, 15-20 Warriors or 10 "Eternals" + ICs also = yes).

also,

Praxiss wrote:in apoc use a Monolith and jump that blob clear accross the table.

uh, Praxiss, I might advise against that. Trying to fit 20+ models within 6 inches of the Monolith's portal may result in you losing quite a good chunk of your unit.

Oh yeah, i think the maximum you can fit is 16? So 15 warriors and your Phaeron.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:I'm gonna have to disagree on that one. If you are running warrior blobs then an orb is pretty much a must and will generally always win its points back in a game. Think of it this way: A blob of 15-20 T4 warriors with FNP that ignores AP 1&2, power weapons, and double strength wounds? For how many points? Yes please. However, I wouldn't put them in any squad with less than 10 dudes (unless we are talking lychguard). At that point then you start to lose out on efficiency.

Personally I think warrior blobs can still be fun and competitive. But yes, I would have to agree with all the fun new toys people are gonna want to try it out and with the way points start to add up MSU is the best way to do that. For me, I will stick with warrior blobs because I like a fluffy list and so far they haven't steered me wrong. The only downside is that they aren't too hot in cc. And having a 10+ unit of warriors get wiped because your lord isn't doing his job is pretty depressing.

Only problem with the rez orb is that its horribly worse than FNP in close combat. An assault squad that tears into your warriors is going to make you take a leadership test on a big negative modifer *before* reanimation protocols, and if (when) you fail it the whole squad is toast.

Without fearless I don't see a big squad of warriors as very viable. Its just too many points tied up and too easy to crack for any dedicated assault unit.

Just Imagine..... fearless warrior blobs.... that would be awesome.

/sigh It would make me happy.

Saying that I'm surprised that one of the ICs dont grant Fearless. Maybe it will happen in the next IA book.

you could always use scarabs as a Fearless cc screen with your blob walking behind.

I like it with 5 warriors but in ghost arks with a Lord and Cryptek.

Then i normally attach imotek or an over lord. (MSS, Orb, WS)

I max out on wraiths and scarabs.

Having a squad of 5 warriors+Lord+Overlord with 2 WS and 2 MSS makes them nasty for SM and MC based armies. In a 10 man SM squad if i manage to get your sgt you just lost out on so many attacks while i have 5 power weapon attacks (at str 7) and 5 warriors. They cant focus my Lord with an orb and the over lord has a 3++/2+ at T5

Kevlar wrote:Only problem with the rez orb is that its horribly worse than FNP in close combat. An assault squad that tears into your warriors is going to make you take a leadership test on a big negative modifer *before* reanimation protocols, and if (when) you fail it the whole squad is toast.

Without fearless I don't see a big squad of warriors as very viable. Its just too many points tied up and too easy to crack for any dedicated assault unit.

Well, the same exception is (provisionally) true. Sweeping Advance will still generate EL markers (provisionally, ie, if you play it that way), and then you'll still get the payback on the orb due to assisting expensive characters on their RP rolls.

It's hard to choose between new toys and Phalanx....


though I'm sure the good ol foot-dragging horde will return soon...

I mean what's wrong with a sea of warriors?

Honestly, I run big blobs w/ RezLords for one reason...I have terrible luck. I actually need a mathematical advantage to have a shot at winning. Of course my friend who plays nids has perfect luck and makes the tesla saves on his hormagaunts just to taunt me.

Gangrel767 wrote:Just Imagine..... fearless warrior blobs.... that would be awesome.

When the 6th ed rumor codex came out, the info about "betting" strategic pts to seize initiative, I remember reecius using a 20 warrior blob and he gave them stubborn, it was glorious.

mmmBoBo wrote:Honestly, I run big blobs w/ RezLords for one reason...I have terrible luck. I actually need a mathematical advantage to have a shot at winning. Of course my friend who plays nids has perfect luck and makes the tesla saves on his hormagaunts just to taunt me.

I feel your pain....

2 blocks of 20 warriors with 2 Phaerons and rez orbs with a Ghost Ark or 2 would make pretty solid core for an army.


But thats a damn big chunk of pts to do it.

IronDerp wrote:

mmmBoBo wrote:Honestly, I run big blobs w/ RezLords for one reason...I have terrible luck. I actually need a mathematical advantage to have a shot at winning. Of course my friend who plays nids has perfect luck and makes the tesla saves on his hormagaunts just to taunt me.

I feel your pain....

although I have to say things have gotten better without phase out.

mmmBoBo wrote:Honestly, I run big blobs w/ RezLords for one reason...I have terrible luck. I actually need a mathematical advantage to have a shot at winning. Of course my friend who plays nids has perfect luck and makes the tesla saves on his hormagaunts just to taunt me.

And that is why you should take blasters with phaeron. Denying the save through AP is the best way to make sure the opponent does not make the save. Statistically, tesla is only better at max range against AP3 or better.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

mmmBoBo wrote:Honestly, I run big blobs w/ RezLords for one reason...I have terrible luck. I actually need a mathematical advantage to have a shot at winning. Of course my friend who plays nids has perfect luck and makes the tesla saves on his hormagaunts just to taunt me.

And that is why you should take blasters with phaeron. Denying the save through AP is the best way to make sure the opponent does not make the save. Statistically, tesla is only better at max range against AP3 or better.

hmm... That may work. although with my luck he'll shoot off is venom cannons and take out the phaeron before i have a chance to do anything.