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H.B.M.C. wrote:That said, some freedom could be opened up for Chosen units (such as a World Eater Chosen unit having access to Jump Packs).

It think that's the most sensible solution.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

sonofruss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Yes the marine you are talking about here is Ulric the Slayer and this is how he received the moniker "slayer". It was angron who bestowed the nod.

Pffft. Get this weak Gak outta here.

The "really old" Khorne was violent and hated everyone. I'm glad they're heading back in this direction, with the exception of the "headlong charge" part. Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from, as long as it flows. Hell, the World Eaters used Devastators and they were called the Teeth of Khorne. Khorne gifted his followers (Even ones in warhammer fantasy!) ranged weapons.

So yeah, your Chaos Warriors could be running around with bolters.

I understand why some people want Khorne to go to being more of a Samurai, but it just waters it down for the newbies.

In RoC, under the Khorne section, his "Friends+Enemies" section talks about how a follower of Khorne has no friends-all will be sacrifices to Khorne. Particularly insane World Eaters would commit suicide to offer themselves to the blood god.

I'd just rather that you were able to control your own troops. The only "dynamic" that followers of Khorne require is that they are better than any of the other god's followers at killing, both in close combat AND at ranged. It would be a fun special rule to allow them to shoot into close combat.

Actually I think you might be misunderstanding folks. The use of heavy weapons thing and tactics where in the Slaves of Darkness version of Khorne, and most or the earlier stuff for him. This is what those of us are complaining about want a return to.

The problem with the Khorne cult army in 3rd (4th? I can't remember) was you couldn't access anything with heavy weapons, and if I'm remembering right, units with Bolters they could take had to shift them down to CC and Bolt pistol, and the only special they could take was a Plasma Pistol.

So aye, In essence you are actually asking for what we are anyway. Khorne has always wanted blood, death and destruction, but in older editions his followers wheren't mindless idiots in doing it.

I understand where they're coming from and for the most part I agree with them, I'm just not a fan of the whole "honor and saluting" stuff that 2nd edition Khorne seemed to be all about. It sounds interesting but really takes away from the whole "kill everyone, even your friends and family" stuff that I like about Khorne. He's not censored at all, unlike Slaanesh who keeps on getting watered down through the editions.

Otherwise, like i said, I agree with you. Khorne should have heavy weapons (and get bonuses for them) and probably some special Khorne ranged weapons too. Hell, the Cannon of Khorne would be a cool artillery piece for World Eaters/Khorne forces.

Not even so much using tactics as it is "kill them, kill them all". Fairly mindless but not completely.

But hey, everyone has their own thing they like. If Khorne ends up being the honorable samurai again, it's fine. I'll just keep reading Realms of Chaos and keep on enduring through my champions becoming Chaos Spawn.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It also showed that certain groups within the various forces of Chaos were specific unto themselves - Raptors and Obliterators being the two most obvious ones, with them being described as 'Cults' of their own, which is why there aren't any 'Emperor's Children Raptors' or 'World Eater Obliterators'. It also showed combat doctrine, as has been mentioned above.

That said, some freedom could be opened up for Chosen units (such as a World Eater Chosen unit having access to Jump Packs).

Yup. Despite some overpowering elements in Chaos 3.5 (overpowering at the time, not so much anymore), I really feel the codex did it right on organization and personalization of your force. You really could build any type of army you wanted out of the book. Chosen were great stop gap unit that could take most any type of wargear to give you what ever type of unit you wanted. Granted you paid through the nose for it, but you could have it.

There were limitations for the individual factions. There were FOC rearrangements as was fitting for the factions. Yes, IW should have access to 4 HS selections. Its just a shame that how 3rd and 4th ed core mission rules worked, this turned out somewhat abusive. I loved that giving Nurgle a transport made them FA choices. For a force that is supposed to win by attrition and hard to kill bodies, this was wonderfully fluffy and helped focus what each faction army was about.

I think that is what most of us Chaos players truly miss. The ability to field a force that we want, how we want, and one that will be unique to other chaos forces. It bugs me to no end to see Berzerkers fighting hand in hand with other cult marines in every single Chaos army I see currently fielded.

Melissia wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:That said, some freedom could be opened up for Chosen units (such as a World Eater Chosen unit having access to Jump Packs).

It think that's the most sensible solution.

I think its some weird alignment of the stars for us to all agree like this. I think it really simplifies it when you take this approach, with each legions pulling different units in different directions to just right the rules where the legions primary unit of choice can be elevated to "Chosen" opening up all the appropriate upgrade options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:
Yup. Despite some overpowering elements in Chaos 3.5 (overpowering at the time, not so much anymore), I really feel the codex did it right on organization and personalization of your force. You really could build any type of army you wanted out of the book. Chosen were great stop gap unit that could take most any type of wargear to give you what ever type of unit you wanted. Granted you paid through the nose for it, but you could have it.

It wasn't just overpowering elements that was a problem. I loved that book don't get me wrong, its just the cited reason for moving away from that was the overwhelming number of variations any number of units could take. You had legions, marks, and skills producing an excessive variation of just the chaos marines, let alone other units. It was unfair by virtue of the difficulty for other players to grasp what army they were fighting.

I think a fair amount of the problem with the 3.5 Codex, could have been fixed by simply giving your opponents a simple yet detailed army list. I personally feel that providing such a list is just good sportsmanship, no matter which army you're playing.

I’ll have to agree that the complexity issues with the 3.5 codex could be overcome with providing your opponent with a well written army list as well as the codex on hand for them to read. That being said, as complex as the 3.5 book was, there was no ambiguous rules, quality issues or general weirdness that’s prevalent in every Matt Ward codex.

Think you guys should be tapped to write the new 'dex. I have been loving the ideas in the past two pages, especially the Veterans with 2 wounds each. A whole elite force of essentially captain level warriors in units would be fantastic, even if you could only afford to field 20 models at 2000 points. Options like that would just make for an awesome book.

The veterans would be like the paladins in a sense. Or you could style them like Wolf Guard but with two wounds. On the raptors being a cult, it is pointed out in Chaos Codex 3.5 and in the fluff, like in Blood Reaver. Icons could stay if marks came back. They could turn into squad enhancing items, like sacred chaos artifacts.

Yea that would be pretty sweet. Super customizable armies and units, for a price.

I came REALLY close to making a true scale, counts-as all Wolf Guard Word Bearers army. I demurred, getting sucked into WHFB, but having the option would be sweet.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I understand where they're coming from and for the most part I agree with them, I'm just not a fan of the whole "honor and saluting" stuff that 2nd edition Khorne seemed to be all about. It sounds interesting but really takes away from the whole "kill everyone, even your friends and family" stuff that I like about Khorne. He's not censored at all, unlike Slaanesh who keeps on getting watered down through the editions.

Well, there's a reason Kharne is called The Betrayer. Because he did that. he went mindless and slaughtered friends and foe alike. The rest of them weren't like that. He was disliked and mistrusted because of it. And this is still in his fluff. But it doesn't make sense now that Berzerkers are all like this. Why bother tagging him as The Betrayer when all Berzerkers are as mindless and bloodthirsty as him?

Now he's Kharne The Guy-Who-Does-What-Everyone-Else-Does.

Just to quote myself for a second, from my review:

Commissar Calgar wrote:‘Khorne embodies mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within reach, slaying both friend or foe alike.’ – Codex: When Loyalists Go Bad, Page 9.

I really do long for the days when Khorne not only embodied mindless slaughter, but martial pride and prowess – skill and ability within combat in all its forms. I want Khorne to go back to being the bloodthirsty God of War, where power could be gained both through hacking off someone’s head with an axe and through blasting them with a massive gun.

Some of us must remember the old Khornate Daemon Engines of Space Marine, specifically the Great Cannon of Khorne. Sure, it was possibly one of the more silly models GW has made, ranking up their with their first attempts at making Thunderhawk Gunships models, but it was a representation of Khorne as a master of combat, no matter the type of combat.

All fiction is based around conflict, and internal conflicts are often the most interesting types. The dichotomy of Khorne – one part bloodthirsty killer, the other part proud and honourable warrior – has, to me at least, made him the most interesting God, even more interesting than the relationship between Nurgle and Tzeentch. To see the Blood God distilled over time to a maniac who just wants to kill everything is quite saddening. Anyway, moving on.

Boiling down the Chaos Gods to a single personality trait makes them little more than the Star Trek alien races that each have one defining feature (Klingons - fighting, Ferengi - greedy, Romulans - sneaky, etc.) and that is really dull!

-Loki- wrote:
Well, there's a reason Kharne is called The Betrayer. Because he did that. he went mindless and slaughtered friends and foe alike. The rest of them weren't like that. He was disliked and mistrusted because of it. And this is still in his fluff. But it doesn't make sense now that Berzerkers are all like this. Why bother tagging him as The Betrayer when all Berzerkers are as mindless and bloodthirsty as him?
Now he's Kharne The Guy-Who-Does-What-Everyone-Else-Does.

The thing to note here is that Kharn the Betrayer came out in 2nd edition, where Khorne was turned into (some would say) something more dynamic, where he wanted death and destruction but he was also "honorable" about it. In the context of Khorne and the Berzerkers in 2nd edition, Kharn's moniker fits very well.

In the context of Realms of Chaos Khorne, like you said it makes no sense and is really just redundant.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Just to quote myself for a second, from my review:

Commissar Calgar wrote:‘Khorne embodies mindless and absolute violence, destroying everything and everyone within reach, slaying both friend or foe alike.’ – Codex: When Loyalists Go Bad, Page 9.

I really do long for the days when Khorne not only embodied mindless slaughter, but martial pride and prowess – skill and ability within combat in all its forms. I want Khorne to go back to being the bloodthirsty God of War, where power could be gained both through hacking off someone’s head with an axe and through blasting them with a massive gun.

Some of us must remember the old Khornate Daemon Engines of Space Marine, specifically the Great Cannon of Khorne. Sure, it was possibly one of the more silly models GW has made, ranking up their with their first attempts at making Thunderhawk Gunships models, but it was a representation of Khorne as a master of combat, no matter the type of combat.

All fiction is based around conflict, and internal conflicts are often the most interesting types. The dichotomy of Khorne – one part bloodthirsty killer, the other part proud and honourable warrior – has, to me at least, made him the most interesting God, even more interesting than the relationship between Nurgle and Tzeentch. To see the Blood God distilled over time to a maniac who just wants to kill everything is quite saddening. Anyway, moving on.

Boiling down the Chaos Gods to a single personality trait makes them little more than the Star Trek alien races that each have one defining feature (Klingons - fighting, Ferengi - greedy, Romulans - sneaky, etc.) and that is really dull!

The italicized text is what Khorne was in Realms of Chaos. No need to stop at 2nd edition.

I highlighted the bold because I found it funny- you want things to return to the way they were, but not the entire way. You want a return to 2nd edition, but why not Realms of Chaos? Realms of Chaos, in my (most likely not) humble opinion was the purest Chaos has ever been. Once you get into 2nd edition, the spikes start to show up and the "evil" that Chaos represents starts to become more cartoony. Granted it was much easier to actually play a game as the Treacher Legions but that's about it.

Khorne in was a bit one-dimensional in RoC, but he was still a master of all types of combat. There was no way you could beat a Bloodthirster unless you focused your entire army on it. If you saw Khornate Warriors coming up on your lines (WS6, S5, I6 with 2 attacks each), it was game over man, game over.

Finally, I'm curious as to why any of the Chaos gods need to be "dynamic". Each of the Chaos gods is just one part of the whole equation.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I highlighted the bold because I found it funny- you want things to return to the way they were, but not the entire way.

Much of the Rogue Trader/Realms of Chaos era stuff no longer applies. Of course we don't want to go all the way back, because going all the way back gives us things like Leman Russ being a man rather than a Primarch, the Ultramarines being the replacements for a corrupt Ultramarines (and a half-human/half-Eldar Chief Librarian), Beastmen units in the Guard, and all sorts of other stuff.

40K wasn't internally consistent (or as internally consistent as something so vague and scattered can be) until 2nd Ed came around and GW started codifying and rationalising their universe. Sure they've mined the old ROC days for material as the years have gone on, but they've tried to take it and reapply it to the more structured and uniform 40K universe of 2nd/3rd/4th Ed.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:I highlighted the bold because I found it funny- you want things to return to the way they were, but not the entire way.

Much of the Rogue Trader/Realms of Chaos era stuff no longer applies. Of course we don't want to go all the way back, because going all the way back gives us things like Leman Russ being a man rather than a Primarch, the Ultramarines being the replacements for a corrupt Ultramarines (and a half-human/half-Eldar Chief Librarian), Beastmen units in the Guard, and all sorts of other stuff.

Most of this is doesn't really add to our conversation (I would call it a red herring but I'm looking for discussion rather than argument) other than the fact that RT had some very cool but very odd stuff. And Leman Russ was ret-conned to being a primarch later in Rogue Trader

Yet at the same time, some stuff from Rogue Trader has come back into the spotlight. The new Bloodletters mimic the old ones, and of course the Jokaero. A perfect opportunity for the "I kill everyone at range and in close combat" Khorne.

40K wasn't internally consistent (or as internally consistent as something so vague and scattered can be) until 2nd Ed came around and GW started codifying and rationalising their universe. Sure they've mined the old ROC days for material as the years have gone on, but they've tried to take it and reapply it to the more structured and uniform 40K universe of 2nd/3rd/4th Ed.

I'm still not seeing why we can't see a return to the Khorne who doesn't care where the blood flows from as long as it flows. And I'd argue that it's a more likely step for the grimdark 40k universe than an "honorable" Chaos god would.
Then again, it all depends on who writes the codex.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

sonofruss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:
Here's a thought: Do you think GW would ever go back to the "old" Khorne, which was more about achiving glory in battle or something like that? Never read any fluff about it myself, only heard stories from older gamers.

I wish they would do this - bring back that aspect of Khorne, the "martial pride" theme.

There was a story about a Loyalist Space Marine beating 2 or 3 Berzerkers in HTH and the leader/champion saluted him for his efforts.

Things like that are nice to see, rather than All Who Worship Khorne are maniacs and their only tactic is the headlong charge...

Yes the marine you are talking about here is Ulric the Slayer and this is how he received the moniker "slayer". It was angron who bestowed the nod.

Pffft. Get this weak Gak outta here.

The "really old" Khorne was violent and hated everyone. I'm glad they're heading back in this direction, with the exception of the "headlong charge" part. Khorne doesn't care where the blood flows from, as long as it flows. Hell, the World Eaters used Devastators and they were called the Teeth of Khorne. Khorne gifted his followers (Even ones in warhammer fantasy!) ranged weapons.

So yeah, your Chaos Warriors could be running around with bolters.

I understand why some people want Khorne to go to being more of a Samurai, but it just waters it down for the newbies.

In RoC, under the Khorne section, his "Friends+Enemies" section talks about how a follower of Khorne has no friends-all will be sacrifices to Khorne. Particularly insane World Eaters would commit suicide to offer themselves to the blood god.

I'd just rather that you were able to control your own troops. The only "dynamic" that followers of Khorne require is that they are better than any of the other god's followers at killing, both in close combat AND at ranged. It would be a fun special rule to allow them to shoot into close combat.

Actually I think you might be misunderstanding folks. The use of heavy weapons thing and tactics where in the Slaves of Darkness version of Khorne, and most or the earlier stuff for him. This is what those of us are complaining about want a return to.

The problem with the Khorne cult army in 3rd (4th? I can't remember) was you couldn't access anything with heavy weapons, and if I'm remembering right, units with Bolters they could take had to shift them down to CC and Bolt pistol, and the only special they could take was a Plasma Pistol.

So aye, In essence you are actually asking for what we are anyway. Khorne has always wanted blood, death and destruction, but in older editions his followers wheren't mindless idiots in doing it.

Actually, you are wrong...

Just grabbed my Realms of Chaos Slaves to Darkness book and the first page for Khorne clearly states he is the "aspect of mindless and absolute violence" that is straight from the book...and it continues on to talk of his "gore-maddened" followers who charge head long into battle...nothing of honor

And the person who said that the Ulrik story of him besting 3 Berzerkers was when it mattered because they weren't mindless is also mistaken, that story is not from an old codex...it is from the newest Wolves Codex...Idk about older ones

So this honor of Khorne stuff people are talking about is actually new, and not the original idea at all...if it even can be said to exist...

EDIT: Didn't see this was touched on...oh well, still excited for a new Codex and I could care less how Khorne turns out truly...Slaanesh for me

Mourningstar wrote:
Just grabbed my Realms of Chaos Slaves to Darkness book and the first page for Khorne clearly states he is the "aspect of mindless and absolute violence" that is straight from the book...and it continues on to talk of his "gore-maddened" followers who charge head long into battle...nothing of honor

So this honor of Khorne stuff people are talking about is actually new, and not the original intent at all...if it even can be said to exist...

Figured I'd Clear that up since it was bothering me

+1 to that, brotha

Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, Page 17 wrote:
He (Khorne) looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies...

I wish that Khorne would have an ability that gave you bonuses based on how many of your own troops you kill! Haha

What would Slaanesh troops get a bonus for?

Mourningstar wrote:What would Slaanesh troops get a bonus for?

This board is PG-13, I'll leave that to everyone's imaginations ahaha






BRB fighting with one hand...wait what

From a fluff standpoint, World Eaters Khorne Berserkers, and almost the whole Legion in fact, underwent a surgery for implant that boosted aggressionand strength. That comes from Index Astartes III. In the current Codex, it states that the practice of this surgey continues, with only the Black Legions Berserkers equalling those of the World Eaters. Based on this, we could say that the ones in a Chaos Legions Codex, should be better than those in a Chaos Renegades Codex. At least, that's the way I see it...

Except the current codex is perfectly able to represent Black Legion, which basically has everything. There's no reason for Berzzerkers in the Legions codex to be better aside from, well, making that codex more powerful.

Which means it will happen, but not for that fluff reason.

-Loki- wrote:Except the current codex is perfectly able to represent Black Legion, which basically has everything. There's no reason for Berzzerkers in the Legions codex to be better aside from, well, making that codex more powerful.

Which means it will happen, but not for that fluff reason.

You seem to have missed how I was mostly talking about the World Eaters. Basically, I was referencing the fluff in both cases to say that the World Eaters should be close combat monsters to tie into the previously stated fluff. That, and that non World Eaters Berserkers should not be as good, again based on the fluff.

Mourningstar wrote:And the person who said that the Ulrik story of him besting 3 Berzerkers was when it mattered because they weren't mindless is also mistaken, that story is not from an old codex...it is from the newest Wolves Codex...Idk about older ones

It's not original source. Lexicanum lists White Dwarf 266 as the source.

Mourningstar wrote:

Actually, you are wrong...

Just grabbed my Realms of Chaos Slaves to Darkness book and the first page for Khorne clearly states he is the "aspect of mindless and absolute violence" that is straight from the book...and it continues on to talk of his "gore-maddened" followers who charge head long into battle...nothing of honor

And the person who said that the Ulrik story of him besting 3 Berzerkers was when it mattered because they weren't mindless is also mistaken, that story is not from an old codex...it is from the newest Wolves Codex...Idk about older ones

So this honor of Khorne stuff people are talking about is actually new, and not the original idea at all...if it even can be said to exist...

EDIT: Didn't see this was touched on...oh well, still excited for a new Codex and I could care less how Khorne turns out truly...Slaanesh for me

Yeah, I realised where it was coming from Space Marine, Adepticus Titanicus and later Epic is where Khorne was more martial, as they had to justify heavier vehicles and weapons.

My mind thought it was SoD, but the epic systems are almost as old as the Realm of Chaos books, and they actually helped focus much of the direction 40K went in.

Also I wasn't advocating the honour thing, that got caught up in the post Vlad was responding to. I just the ability to use some kind of tactical know how in battles, there was a period Khorne followers represented the best on the battlefield, and they where a sod to out fight both physically and tactically.

Baragash wrote:

Mourningstar wrote:And the person who said that the Ulrik story of him besting 3 Berzerkers was when it mattered because they weren't mindless is also mistaken, that story is not from an old codex...it is from the newest Wolves Codex...Idk about older ones

It's not original source. Lexicanum lists White Dwarf 266 as the source.

So, fairly 'old' then.

And really, I don't think anyone wants to go ALL the way back to RT, for many of the reasons H.B.M.C. already mentioned.

Though I would like Beastmen Guard units - those were some pretty cool miniatures that stand the test of time fairly well!

Alpharius wrote:

Baragash wrote:

Mourningstar wrote:And the person who said that the Ulrik story of him besting 3 Berzerkers was when it mattered because they weren't mindless is also mistaken, that story is not from an old codex...it is from the newest Wolves Codex...Idk about older ones

It's not original source. Lexicanum lists White Dwarf 266 as the source.

So, fairly 'old' then.

And really, I don't think anyone wants to go ALL the way back to RT, for many of the reasons H.B.M.C. already mentioned.

Though I would like Beastmen Guard units - those were some pretty cool miniatures that stand the test of time fairly well!

It is from the second ed codex not the current one thank you they trickle down you see.

Jayden63 wrote:

Balance wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:If there's one thing I didn't like about 3.5 it was how some units couldn't get any marks. I can see why Nurgle Raptors would seem weird (though they would probably look awesome with the old chaos jetpacks) but why shouldn't there be Khorne dedicated jump troops?

I don't know...Lots of room for 'Lord of the flies' imagery with nurgle-inspired Raptors. Maybe note that they're more focused on spreading nasty plague around and give them an option to take a 'poisoned' flamer or an aura of plague.

I actually liked that not all units could take all marks. It really helped make the legions different. It helped show what they focused on and what sort of things each felt was unnecessary. If it did anything, it just helped with diversity. I knew I wouldn't see my exact same EC army across the table only with Marks of Nurgle instead of Slannesh.

I woul think the best way would be to plan that each unit would have a full page that has the 'base' unit and 3-5 'variants' for both Marked and Cult armies.

So a basic Space Marine squad (this one might need two pages) would have the basic statline then a bunch of boxed sections with changed units for 5 marks, Thousand Sons (makes it a Sorcerer + Rubric troops), etc.

Others would be a bit simpler. No Khorne-marked sorcerer, for example. Units that are ultra-specialized would probably be best described independently, but in general for a lot of setups (the aforementioned Nurgle Raptors) it's easier to say "Nurgle Raptors pay an extra 5 points/model but get 1 extra point of toguhness and their special weapons are limited to disease flamers" or similar.

how about this for an idea: a khorne codex(includng world eaters etc), a Nurgle codex (w/ death gaurd), a Tzeentch codex (including Thousand sons), and a slaanesh codex (w/ emperoros children) and then a Chaos Renegades book

necrongod wrote:how about this for an idea: a khorne codex(includng world eaters etc), a Nurgle codex (w/ death gaurd), a Tzeentch codex (including Thousand sons), and a slaanesh codex (w/ emperoros children) and then a Chaos Renegades book

This is entirely unnecessary. It all fit in a codex once, it will do so again. These suggestions are increasingly ludicrous.

Brother SRM wrote:

necrongod wrote:how about this for an idea: a khorne codex(includng world eaters etc), a Nurgle codex (w/ death gaurd), a Tzeentch codex (including Thousand sons), and a slaanesh codex (w/ emperoros children) and then a Chaos Renegades book

This is entirely unnecessary. It all fit in a codex once, it will do so again.

I have to second this actually, they're capable of all fitting in the same Codex IMHO.

Brother SRM wrote:

necrongod wrote:how about this for an idea: a khorne codex(includng world eaters etc), a Nurgle codex (w/ death gaurd), a Tzeentch codex (including Thousand sons), and a slaanesh codex (w/ emperoros children) and then a Chaos Renegades book

This is entirely unnecessary. It all fit in a codex once, it will do so again. These suggestions are increasingly ludicrous.

now that i look on it thats an extra 3 codexes and with GW the way it is now ere lucky to get one.