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I'm sad Traitor Legions buffs and personality is gone for my Night Lords, but TBH, I'm not crying too hard.

The Force Org charts opened up a lot of options, essentially with very few taxes to run whatever list you wanted within your own faction. My Raptor Cult is going to be alive and well.

A squad of 10 is now 10 points cheaper BTW.But this Heldrake thing...

It's 198 points with a baleflamer, which is mediocre at best. Yes it can assault folks, which I was excited about until I saw.... It has 4 attacks. The damn thing has less attacks in close combat than a land raider. I'm seriously not convinced the speed and maneuverability make it worth anywhere near that many points, not when deep strike has such potential.

Anybody want to take a shot at building a list?

What's the equivalent power level for a pretty standard 1500-2000pt game?

The helldrake is weird for sure.

It's niche is assaulting other flyers , which is fine..

But the ability to launch a 30" assault can't be ignored. It's still tough enough to rip through most shooting units. Even if they flee, they can't shoot (except tau suits. They are gonna be awkward)

Yoyoyo wrote:
Something to keep in mind, GW tends to organize new publications around model releases.

I would not be surprised if the new CSM dex is timed around a few new characters, cult troops and stuff... like Daemon Primarchs for example.

So yeah no need to overreact IMO.

I have 1 option right now. Bring 750 points of of Cultists/Tzzangors and 1100 Rubric/SOT. The only way for me to reroll psychic tests is to use CP. But I will have to save those for perils since Rubrics/SOT will end up losing 1/2-1/4 of the squad. Except the better option would be to spam Tzzangors with Icons of Flame, and bring actual sorcerers which will do more damage with their spells. The reroll thing would be fine if other units, like Zerkers, weren't able to pay 10 points for an Icon that lets them re roll charge rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Anybody want to take a shot at building a list?

What's the equivalent power level for a pretty standard 1500-2000pt game?

75-100

 mrhappyface wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Abaddon is back! And better than ever!

Eh, really?

His stats are pretty solid. It's been awhile since I looked at them but I seem to recall thinking he might be able to take Gulliman. don't get me wrong I'd be putting my money on Papa Smurf but Abbaddon's got a decent shot of it

I was kind of disappointed with his weapons: both of them are -3AP not -4AP and they kept the damn Daemon weapon rule. Not saying that Abaddon won't still be able to go toe to toe with most characters but I don't really think he's gotten better.

Looks like Abby hits with both of his weapons.... right? If so, that's knarly.


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 DoomMouse wrote:
Did brimstone horrors just get OP? They're now 2pts per model, have 2 wounds, T3 and a 4+ invuln stock. They won't have much damage output, but virtually nothing is going to kill them efficiently. 2pts per model is just a bit silly

If the rule of 'if strength is double your toughness = insta death' is gone in 8ed... maaaaaybe. They still seem vulnerable to morale. (remember even SHOOTING can trigger morale).

Burning chariots look pretty decent from a first glance too.

I think so too.


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Captyn_Bob wrote:
The helldrake is weird for sure.

It's niche is assaulting other flyers , which is fine..

But the ability to launch a 30" assault can't be ignored. It's still tough enough to rip through most shooting units. Even if they flee, they can't shoot (except tau suits. They are gonna be awkward)

Pretty sure the 'drake has the FLY keyword, and can fall back and still shoot.

Few more points tests real quick:

Base Hellbrute:
Was: 100pts Now: 126pts

5x Chosen Before Upgrades:
Was: 90 points Now: 80 Points

3x Chaos Bikers (Stock)
Was: 70 points Now: 99 points

Maulerfiend w/Tendrils
Was: 135 Now: 161

I'm most curious as to why the bikes spiked in price so much... Everything else seems to have gotten quite a bit better, for limited points costs, or in same cases, point decreases.

Bikes spiked so much because they gained a wound, an add'l 2" of movement and more shots w/ the bolter. Whether that's worth as much as they went up, is still to be seen, but they did get quite a bit.

I was discussing on 3++ and it looks like the Heldrake's main role now is as a Chaos sniper rifle.

Move point-blank to an enemy character so that it's the closest one, and tag it with a Baleflamer. Use a Command Point if you fluff the number of hits you get.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I was discussing on 3++ and it looks like the Heldrake's main role now is as a Chaos sniper rifle.

Move point-blank to an enemy character so that it's the closest one, and tag it with a Baleflamer. Use a Command Point if you fluff the number of hits you get.

Brilliant. I am looking forward to adding a Heldrake to my Daemons

Asura Varuna wrote:
herald buffs are a good +1 strength for everything (yay S5 / 7 bite screamers...).

Fixed for you.
You can also use the ability on a LoC, a soulgrinder, and a DP of Tzeentch.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Flamers weapons are Pistol D6.

That means 9 flamers do 9d6 hits every round, and assaulting them does not stop them from shooting!

Flamers are assault not Pistol you can run and shoot but you cant shoot in CC.

You must not have seen the profile. Flamers don't have flamers. They have Flickering Flames -- which is a pistol.
If there is a herald nearby, they are also hitting with a STR 5 twice a round. If the herald is casting 'Boon of Change' on the flamers, they can get even better.

Not only can they shoot while enemy models are closer than 1" away, since they have fly they can also fall back and then shoot again.

To make it even more bonkers, overwatch no longer has a 'wall of flame' rule. The flickering flames just hit d6 times.


What does this mean? A unit of 9 Flamers can move 12" up, and then blast a unit for 9d6 STR 4 Ap-1 hits. That's ~31.5 hits.
If they want, they can then assault the unit and swing another 18 times (only hitting on a 5+)
On their turn, they can jump out of the assault then shoot again for another 9d6 shots.

Bottom line. Flamers of Tzeentch are crazy good.

So are we thinking we get all the cool stuff back when army specific indexes come out?

We refugees from 3.5ed returning to our homeland only to see it snatched away shortly after our arrival are of course upset. I am somewhat palliated by the hope that the Legions codex might come soon, and eliminate some of my worries.

Were it not for one thing. 3.5ed was a halcyon day for Chaos, but there was one thing that was pretty pants about that codex: that a large swathe of the codex options couldn't take marks, cutting out a huge number of options from each Legion. Of course we don't know for sure, but this Vanilla dex seems to point towards a return to this, with both Death Guard and Thousand Sons being banned from a large number of unit options.

Having 80% of my army booted out of Death Guard, this leads me to think that the Legions Codex will not do much to bring me back in, and that a certain amount of the 'flavour' of any given Legion (probably all, except Black Legion) will come from barring various Legions from certain units. I doubt, for example, that any of the units that are barred from Death Guard will be returned, but rather that they'll get replacements. This leaves me, and lots of players, in a rather disappointing position. Although no units got squatted, it basically means that we have, at best, our previously unified force will probably fragment into 1/3 of three different armies ... unless we want to play CSM: Bland here. But that's why we refugees didn't return for 10 years.

The thing I'm really confused about right now is that we haven't seen any faction specific command traits have we? If they aren't included yet I'm not sure we can really say that we have seen a single faction proper yet. I'm not convinced we're getting faction specific detachments but we haven't seen anything of that either yet. So I'm not sure what an real codex actually looks like.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So are we thinking we get all the cool stuff back when army specific indexes come out?

You can bet that fine ass of your avatar it will happen.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Asura Varuna wrote:
herald buffs are a good +1 strength for everything (yay S5 / 7 bite screamers...).

Fixed for you.
You can also use the ability on a LoC, a soulgrinder, and a DP of Tzeentch.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Flamers weapons are Pistol D6.

That means 9 flamers do 9d6 hits every round, and assaulting them does not stop them from shooting!

Flamers are assault not Pistol you can run and shoot but you cant shoot in CC.

You must not have seen the profile. Flamers don't have flamers. They have Flickering Flames -- which is a pistol.
If there is a herald nearby, they are also hitting with a STR 5 twice a round. If the herald is casting 'Boon of Change' on the flamers, they can get even better.

Not only can they shoot while enemy models are closer than 1" away, since they have fly they can also fall back and then shoot again.

To make it even more bonkers, overwatch no longer has a 'wall of flame' rule. The flickering flames just hit d6 times.


What does this mean? A unit of 9 Flamers can move 12" up, and then blast a unit for 9d6 STR 4 Ap-1 hits. That's ~31.5 hits.
If they want, they can then assault the unit and swing another 18 times (only hitting on a 5+)
On their turn, they can jump out of the assault then shoot again for another 9d6 shots.

Bottom line. Flamers of Tzeentch are crazy good.

Yeah I thought you were talking about the Gun not the Unit LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So are we thinking we get all the cool stuff back when army specific indexes come out?

This...Hopefully. If not I am unsure of what I am going to do. Might just have to switch over to a Generic Tzeentch CSM army rather then TS. Which is Disappointing to say the least.

I have already pretty much decided to shelf Typhus for the time being. I'd rather lose the units I don't own and access to Tyhpus/Troop Plague Marines then lose my Helldrakes, Vindicators, Terminators, Biker Chaos Lord, and Maulerfiends. Unless I'm missing something and those are still available..?

Please...? ;_; Hurts enough that all my heavy hitting units seem to have had their bite removed or their points drastically increased (Knight, Maulerfiends, Helldrakes, etc) but this... this hurts more than I would have expected.

I mean, we are now missing a lot of pour cool stuff, sure, but I can't help but feel like as a whole, we are more competitive now.

The next diamond in the rough I'm looking at is Havocs. -10 points to their base cost, but the cost of weapons went up tremendously. A missile launcher is the same cost as a Lascannon, but I'm quietly thinking it could be the best tournament option, since hordes of nids and orks are about to become a thing again.

Anyone have thoughts on Havocs?

 Amanax wrote:
I have already pretty much decided to shelf Typhus for the time being. I'd rather lose the units I don't own and access to Tyhpus/Troop Plague Marines then lose my Helldrakes, Vindicators, Terminators, Biker Chaos Lord, and Maulerfiends. Unless I'm missing something and those are still available..?

Please...? ;_; Hurts enough that all my heavy hitting units seem to have had their bite removed or their points drastically increased (Knight, Maulerfiends, Helldrakes, etc) but this... this hurts more than I would have expected.

Well if it helps I will probably field Ahriman for the first time in years.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
But I will have to save those for perils since Rubrics/SOT will end up losing 1/2-1/4 of the squad.

That's kind of how the psychic phase goes in 40k. As we said, Ahriman could solo an IK in 7th, or blow himself up for less than half his points. Magnus can dish out 12 Mortal Wounds or fail to manifest and take 3 wounds. Same thing really.

However, getting 3-6 CP isn't too tough and Perils isn't always that bad. You might just take 1W on a 5W character. I'm a little sad the Sorcs won't go super saiyan mode anymore but oh well. The 1-2W squad Sorcs are a different story, probably need to use some forethought before just throwing out powers without thinking. Then again, they were just WC batteries in 7th so that really hasn't changed their use much.

 Amanax wrote:
I have already pretty much decided to shelf Typhus for the time being. I'd rather lose the units I don't own and access to Tyhpus/Troop Plague Marines then lose my Helldrakes, Vindicators, Terminators, Biker Chaos Lord, and Maulerfiends. Unless I'm missing something and those are still available..?

Please...? ;_; Hurts enough that all my heavy hitting units seem to have had their bite removed or their points drastically increased (Knight, Maulerfiends, Helldrakes, etc) but this... this hurts more than I would have expected.

Example army list for Death Guard:

HQ
- Typhus - death guard legion
- chaos bike lord - nurgle rotbringers legion

Troops
- Plague Marines - death guard legion

FA
- Bikes - nurgle rotbringers legion

Your nurgle rotbringers legion lord will boost your nurgle rotbringer bikes. Typhus will boost your plague marines. Keep Typhus by the marines, keep your lord by your bikes. This is a legal detachment* (once you add some more troops).

Nurgle and Thousand Sons players: please calm your tits and realize you are not limited in your detachment by your legion. This is not 7th anymore, your army just needs a single keyword to be forged. You can use all your toys you spent so long collecting and painting.

Not quite true. By mixing rotbringers and DG you loose DG status and loose DG command traits (which we haven't seen yet should there be any). You also can't cast contagion spells on the bikers as that only works on DG units.
Also, personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable gaming the system like that.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Anybody want to take a shot at building a list?

What's the equivalent power level for a pretty standard 1500-2000pt game?

Hard to say, some things went up a lot, others a little, a few things got price breaks. The lack of upgrades also means prices will likely be lower for some units if you always took them marked or with votlw.

As it stands, my DG "list" would probably be:



This is actually a reasonably fluffy list, so maybe they did have a point with the restrictions. Also, 1750/2000 points can apparently easily fit a brigade if you spam MSU units. I even had points to spend on mounts and weapon upgrades.I'm kinda curious how effective it would be.

 Roknar wrote:
Not quite true. By mixing rotbringers and DG you loose DG status and loose DG command traits (which we haven't seen yet should there be any). You also can't cast contagion spells on the bikers as that only works on DG units.
Also, personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable gaming the system like that.

I do not see a rule anywhere that says you cannot take DG legion and another legion, say WE, in the same army as long as when you give a unit the DG legion you keep that unit playing by the rules. This is how armies work in 8th: you only need to keep one keyword in your army. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from mixing your legions. Want some Plaguebearers with your Chaos Marines? They share the Chaos keyword, so go for it, fill out your list with them. The four main legion rules are simply there to add the ability to have auras effect certain units and not others. That is it, that is all. Want some Nurgle bikes in your "Death Guard" army? They can't be Death Guard, they can be literally any other legion you want, including some made up thing like Rotbringers. Take a Chaos Lord on a Bike from the Rotbringers so the bikes get rerolls. They don't get any buffs from Death Guard, however, but you get your bikes.

This isn't gaming the system, this IS the system.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Flamers weapons are Pistol D6.

That means 9 flamers do 9d6 hits every round, and assaulting them does not stop them from shooting!

Flamers are assault not Pistol you can run and shoot but you cant shoot in CC.

You must not have seen the profile. Flamers don't have flamers. They have Flickering Flames -- which is a pistol.
If there is a herald nearby, they are also hitting with a STR 5 twice a round. If the herald is casting 'Boon of Change' on the flamers, they can get even better.

Not only can they shoot while enemy models are closer than 1" away, since they have fly they can also fall back and then shoot again.

To make it even more bonkers, overwatch no longer has a 'wall of flame' rule. The flickering flames just hit d6 times.


What does this mean? A unit of 9 Flamers can move 12" up, and then blast a unit for 9d6 STR 4 Ap-1 hits. That's ~31.5 hits.
If they want, they can then assault the unit and swing another 18 times (only hitting on a 5+)
On their turn, they can jump out of the assault then shoot again for another 9d6 shots.

Bottom line. Flamers of Tzeentch are crazy good.

Good thing I have 9 flamers already!

...and I didn't even realize how fast they move. 12" !!!! o.O That's a 20" threat bubble!

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
But I will have to save those for perils since Rubrics/SOT will end up losing 1/2-1/4 of the squad.

That's kind of how the psychic phase goes in 40k. As we said, Ahriman could solo an IK in 7th, or blow himself up for less than half his points. Magnus can dish out 12 Mortal Wounds or fail to manifest and take 3 wounds. Same thing really.

However, getting 3-6 CP isn't too tough and Perils isn't always that bad. You might just take 1W on a 5W character. I'm a little sad the Sorcs won't go super saiyan mode anymore but oh well. The 1-2W squad Sorcs are a different story, probably need to use some forethought before just throwing out powers without thinking. Then again, they were just WC batteries in 7th so that really hasn't changed their use much.

Ahriman could never solo a IK, He had no spell familiar and no bonus to casting. a WC 1 spell needed 3 dice and a WC 2 needed 5 dice to reliably go off.

Getting 3-6 CP wont be enough for a full game you will use 3-6 in 2 turns. With 2 units of rubrics,1 unit of SOT, and Ahriman that is 6 casts per turn and your not going to let yourself drop below 3 unless its to reroll a perils roll on one of units. That is PL 37

Now compare that to bringing 1 Sorcerer and Ahriman, which will average about the same mortal wounds per turn, and is only 16 PL so I can get 5 units of Tzzangors and still have CP left to use on other things. And that puts me at PL 36.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Not quite true. By mixing rotbringers and DG you loose DG status and loose DG command traits (which we haven't seen yet should there be any). You also can't cast contagion spells on the bikers as that only works on DG units.
Also, personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable gaming the system like that.

I do not see a rule anywhere that says you cannot take DG legion and another legion, say WE, in the same army as long as when you give a unit the DG legion you keep that unit playing by the rules. This is how armies work in 8th: you only need to keep one keyword in your army. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from mixing your legions. Want some Plaguebearers with your Chaos Marines? They share the Chaos keyword, so go for it, fill out your list with them. The four main legion rules are simply there to add the ability to have auras effect certain units and not others. That is it, that is all. Want some Nurgle bikes in your "Death Guard" army? They can't be Death Guard, they can be literally any other legion you want, including some made up thing like Rotbringers. Take a Chaos Lord on a Bike from the Rotbringers so the bikes get rerolls. They don't get any buffs from Death Guard, however, but you get your bikes.

This isn't gaming the system, this IS the system.

Your misunderstanding me. You can mix them yes. But you only gain command benefits if your detachments(army?) is all one keyword.
It can gain the command traits for multiple factions, but you need the key word on all units.
So an all death guard detachment would get you heretic astartes, nurgle and deathguard command traits, but if you mix in non deathguard you would loose access to those.
Of course, we haven't seen any of those yet other than the BRB ones, so who knows if it even matters.

Given that we've seen all the books, it's likely those won't come into play until the Codex releases.

 Roknar wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Not quite true. By mixing rotbringers and DG you loose DG status and loose DG command traits (which we haven't seen yet should there be any). You also can't cast contagion spells on the bikers as that only works on DG units.
Also, personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable gaming the system like that.

I do not see a rule anywhere that says you cannot take DG legion and another legion, say WE, in the same army as long as when you give a unit the DG legion you keep that unit playing by the rules. This is how armies work in 8th: you only need to keep one keyword in your army. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from mixing your legions. Want some Plaguebearers with your Chaos Marines? They share the Chaos keyword, so go for it, fill out your list with them. The four main legion rules are simply there to add the ability to have auras effect certain units and not others. That is it, that is all. Want some Nurgle bikes in your "Death Guard" army? They can't be Death Guard, they can be literally any other legion you want, including some made up thing like Rotbringers. Take a Chaos Lord on a Bike from the Rotbringers so the bikes get rerolls. They don't get any buffs from Death Guard, however, but you get your bikes.

This isn't gaming the system, this IS the system.

Your misunderstanding me. You can mix them yes. But you only gain command benefits if your detachments(army?) is all one keyword.
It can gain the command traits for multiple factions, but you need the key word on all units.
So an all death guard detachment would get you heretic astartes, nurgle and deathguard command traits, but if you mix in non deathguard you would loose access to those.
Of course, we haven't seen any of those yet other than the BRB ones, so who knows if it even matters.

As Zebio said: there are currently no real benefits to going ONLY Death Guard marines or ONLY World Eater marines. You can make a much more fluffy, well rounded army by mixing Marines and Deamons in the same detachment (yes, detachment, since they share the Chaos keyword). For the moment you are free to go nuts.

For the time being yes, just trying to avoid getting too used to it only to find you really want those traits. It seems to me GW wants you to use them.

True, I suppose I can bring the deathguard units like Typhus, they just wont'... really do much.

Though that does open up me bringing my daemon units as well, just have to be careful about bringing buff units in a mixed army as they won't be able to really make use of it as well as a full army would.