Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I honestly can't see the problem with Conscripts. They are cheap, but their cost skyrockets with the various addons you need to make them get work done. People have been trying hard to break them, but scions seem to benefit way more from these combos than the conscripts do.

Err... part of the reason conscripts are great is you don't need many addons (relatively) for them to do well. A single 30 point commissar and 30 point company commander can upgrade 100 conscripts to be fearless and double their firepower currently. That's less than a ppm, which isn't a huge price increase for that sort of improvement.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I honestly can't see the problem with Conscripts. They are cheap, but their cost skyrockets with the various addons you need to make them get work done. People have been trying hard to break them, but scions seem to benefit way more from these combos than the conscripts do.

It does not skyrocket, the most efficient setup will cost you 60 pts per 300 pts of conscripts.

sossen wrote:

It does not skyrocket, the most efficient setup will cost you 60 pts per 300 pts of conscripts.

Skyrocket is hyperbole perhaps, but 20% overhead for a strategy that does have a few hard counters (if not necessarily one for EVERY army out there) is still a non-trivial number of points.

 daedalus wrote:

sossen wrote:

It does not skyrocket, the most efficient setup will cost you 60 pts per 300 pts of conscripts.

Skyrocket is hyperbole perhaps, but 20% overhead for a strategy that does have a few hard counters (if not necessarily one for EVERY army out there) is still a non-trivial number of points.

The snipers are not a hard counter, soft at best. Spending 100 pts to remove morale immunity for the conscripts on turn 2 is not efficient.

That's for eldar. Marines only need to pay 75 to remove them in one or two turns. Or 150 to remove them in one turn. And then you start sniping the other characters your opponent has, or adding wounds to their other units.

Once again, people act like these units used to deal with conscripts suddenly UP AND VANISH OH NOES! the moment the conscripts are dealt with. This is just sad.

 Melissia wrote:
That's for eldar. Marines only need to pay 75 to remove them in one or two turns. Or 150 to remove them in one turn. And then you start sniping the other characters your opponent has, or adding wounds to their other units.

Once again, people act like these units used to deal with conscripts suddenly UP AND VANISH OH NOES! the moment the conscripts are dealt with. This is just sad.

The snipers don't vanish, but they are hardly going to do as much vs the rest of the AM army given that there is little reason to expose the other officers instead of hiding behind vehicles. I only assume that the commissar is visible because he might have to be exposed sometimes. After the commissar is dead the snipers are 18 pt models firing a single bolter shot with about a 1/9 of inflicting a mortal wound per shot. That is not good for a 18 pt model.

sossen wrote:

The snipers are not a hard counter, soft at best. Spending 100 pts to remove morale immunity for the conscripts on turn 2 is not efficient.

I'm seeing 10 snipers at BS 3+ with the standard S4 sniper rifle have about a 60% chance to kill the commissar turn 1, unless he's hiding, and odds are you're going first anyway. Not sure where you're getting turn 2 from.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

sossen wrote:

The snipers don't vanish, but they are hardly going to do as much vs the rest of the AM army given that there is little reason to expose the other officers instead of hiding behind vehicles. I only assume that the commissar is visible because he might have to be exposed sometimes. After the commissar is dead the snipers are 18 pt models firing a single bolter shot with about a 1/9 of inflicting a mortal wound per shot. That is not good for a 18 pt model.

I think we should cripple Green Tide lists because they make my melta guns cost way too much for what they're doing.

I missed a lot of conversation yesterday. Damn you Jury Duty!

Anyway...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

There are two groups of Space Marines that probably have no good options: Deathwatch and Grey Knights. By their nature, they have few units, they're lacking in offensive output across the board, and don't have access to the entire line, or even half the line, compounded with the latter army being shafted by the Rule of 1 on psychic powers and paying for really, really overpriced units that can't use the psychic power they paid for.

I was looking hard at deathwatch for a possible 8th edition army (went with IF instead. Hopefully I'll be able to start posting pics soon), and guard conscripts was one of the nuts I felt I needed to be able to crack.

Deathwatch gain a lot in their 8th edition index by being fully mounted. To the point where if I were doing a Deathwatch army, rather than a deatchwatch killteam or detachment to attach to a different force, I'd still fully mount the army.

And the mount of choice here is the corvis darkstar transport. Stock. Maybe replacing the assault cannons with las for some extra anti-vehical punch, but considering the army's problems fielding enough wounds to handle incoming fire without folding, the assault cannons put out enough fire to help even out the problem.

Then there's the fact that the transports benefit from the master of the watch's reroll bubble, and things immediately get scary.

So, Deathwatch vs conscripts...because the army is going to probably be fully mounted, the conscripts are just something you ignore and fly over. If the IG player uses them to hard wrap their tanks so you can't just fly over them, Deathwatch has things like frag cannons (which they should be taking in this edition, specifically for anti-horde work, despite their cost considering that if you don't spend the points you don't underperform vs hordes, you just lose. They're also not bad against MEQ given the shear number of shots they put out. If you have 4 frag cannons in your army that can concentrate fire, they'll hit the conscripts with 8d6 S4 shots that reroll all misses. In addition you'll have 12 assault cannon shots from each corvis, also rerolling all misses because of the master's bubble.

Finally, because the inquisition and deathwatch go together like peanut butter and chocolate, there's a good chance you're fielding an inquisitor. As long as he's a psychic, he'll be able to disable the conscripts' overwatch if you take, and successfully cast, the fear power (lowering their leadership won't matter because of the commissar), which will allow your kill team to charge and clean up anything left. If you roll right, you should be able to use the remaining conscripts to consolidate into the tanks they were protecting and avoid all IG overwatch if you were packing an inquisitor.

And speaking of commissars, inquisitors usually pack assassins. And, as bad as units like ratlings and rangers are at getting rid of commissars and commanders, the officio assassinorum don't really have that problem.

Deathwatch can handle conscripts. It's GKs that have a problem.

Proposing snipers as a solution to conscripts = never played with snipers, or against competent guard. It just doesn't work. If you have line of sight on the commissar your opponent is playing badly.

 daedalus wrote:
I think we should cripple Green Tide lists because they make my melta guns cost way too much for what they're doing.

If Green Tide lists were the optimal target for meltaguns then I'd accept the comparison, but this is probably the best matchup for sniper rifles and they won't be more than ok. Sniping Guilliman with ten snipers would take quite some time, likewise with Ghazgkhull Thraka or most other special characters that you might see.

Yeah seriously, as soon as your opponent sees dudes holding sniper rifles in your list that commissar is going right back behind a wall or a vehicle and telling a short line of the back couple conscripts in each unit to keep the other 48 in line.

Man, come event time I wish I could play against some of these awful guard players that put their characters in sniper line of fire.

 Marmatag wrote:
Proposing snipers as a solution to conscripts = never played with snipers, or against competent guard. It just doesn't work. If you have line of sight on the commissar your opponent is playing badly.

I still want to see the board set up where this is consistently possible and the conscripts remain effective.

I can think of maybe one tournament game it could have happened on, and also I suppose my CoD games when those happened WAAAAY back in the day.

Meanwhile, there's perfectly timed deep striking on at least 2-3 of the sniper rifle units I've looked at, and they can come in turn 1.

Well if there is enough LoS blocking terrain that some is always in easy reach of the Commissar, then you also have enough LoS blocking terrain on the board for assault units to get to the conscripts without eating full volleys.

Unless for some reason all of the terrain is on one side of the board, in which case you should be giving your opponent some very nasty looks for setting the terrain up like that.

If you assume that you're always in a Normandy situation where your army is pushing up a flat, empty beach while your enemy fires out of entrenched positions with tons of cover, bunkers, and LoS blockers... well of course you're at a disadvantage, the terrain is incredibly one-sided!

 ross-128 wrote:
Well if there is enough LoS blocking terrain that some is always in easy reach of the Commissar, then you also have enough LoS blocking terrain on the board for assault units to get to the conscripts without eating full volleys.

Unless for some reason all of the terrain is on one side of the board, in which case you should be giving your opponent some very nasty looks for setting the terrain up like that.

If you assume that you're always in a Normandy situation where your army is pushing up a flat, empty beach while your enemy fires out of entrenched positions with tons of cover, bunkers, and LoS blockers... well of course you're at a disadvantage, the terrain is incredibly one-sided!

The thing is, given we've established guard have things like cheap chaff to screen and numerous long range LoS ignoring artillery units to shoot with. So a properly built army will always be dictating terms of engagement. Unless your army is primarily deepstriking, you should expect to slog across the board under fire for at leas a turn before you do anything, and if they start blowing up transports and the like it just gets worse.

So now in addition to Schrodinger's Conscripts (conscripts are both dispersed and concentrated at the same, they collapse into whichever formation is most advantageous when you observe them), we also just automatically assume that any map the Imperial Guard fight on is constructed like Omaha Beach.

"I wonder why we need so many guys to take this beach?"
"Must be Germans are OP."

 ross-128 wrote:
So now in addition to Schrodinger's Conscripts (conscripts are both dispersed and concentrated at the same, they collapse into whichever formation is most advantageous when you observe them), we also just automatically assume that any map the Imperial Guard fight on is constructed like Omaha Beach.

"I wonder why we need so many guys to take this beach?"
"Must be Germans are OP."

How many games of 8th do you have under your belt, with or against guard, give or take? If you don't mind my asking.

Two, both against the same Necron player. My group is small and we don't play very often, we both put up a good fight though.

To be fair, he rolled a bit hot on his resurrection protocols.

 Marmatag wrote:
Proposing snipers as a solution to conscripts = never played with snipers, or against competent guard. It just doesn't work. If you have line of sight on the commissar your opponent is playing badly.

Wasn't thinking Vindicare.

There's also the Calidus(?...chick with polymorphine) Assassin who can deepstrike into charge range and then easily 1-round the hidden commissar you've got hiding behind that building.

Sure there are ways to even protect an officer in this case, but they all have their problems. You don't get to math-hammer conscripts while gaining the benefits of every single kind of positioning at the same time.

If the conscripts can move forward and rapid fire while taking orders, you're going to have to conga-line the conscripts for coherence and expose your officers to deepstrike assassination.

If you hide your officers inside the blob, removing enough conscripts makes the officers attackable in the fight phase, AND they'll be vunlerable to sniper fire the whole game because if the squad is in the open, so are the officers.

If you hold your officers back and blob them for protection, you don't get to attack with the entire blob. The math is a LOT less scary when you're only able to double-tap with 12-20 of them because the rest are strung out and bubblewrapping two VIPs behind a building.

Conscripts cannot attack with 100-200 lasgun shots while benefiting from invincible officers that cannot be attacked by deepstrike or by snipers. That kind of positioning is physically impossible.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Proposing snipers as a solution to conscripts = never played with snipers, or against competent guard. It just doesn't work. If you have line of sight on the commissar your opponent is playing badly.

Wasn't thinking Vindicare.

There's also the Calidus(?...chick with polymorphine) Assassin who can deepstrike into charge range and then easily 1-round the hidden commissar you've got hiding behind that building.

Sure there are ways to even protect an officer in this case, but they all have their problems. You don't get to math-hammer conscripts while gaining the benefits of every single kind of positioning at the same time.

If the conscripts can move forward and rapid fire while taking orders, you're going to have to conga-line the conscripts for coherence and expose your officers to deepstrike assassination.

If you hide your officers inside the blob, removing enough conscripts makes the officers attackable in the fight phase, AND they'll be vunlerable to sniper fire the whole game because if the squad is in the open, so are the officers.

They cannot all attack with invincible officers that cannot be attacked by deepstrike. That kind of positioning is physically impossible.

Getting a deepstrike behind enemy lines is most often impossible if they have a model count like AM usually do. The minimum distance restricts you by a lot, even with a slightly shorter distance like the assassin has. And if you announce that you are placing an assassin in deepstrike, you can be sure that the AM player will think about it while positioning his army.

As for the different modes of moving in big blobs and firing vs acting as bubblewrap, that depends on the matchup. If your opponent intends to deepstrike close to or assault your army, you use them as efficient bubblewrap. If your opponent is very shooty you can freely use your conscripts as mobile flashlights, packing them as tightly as the circumstances allow you to. Since the shooty armies don't focus on getting the conscripts out of the way as fast as possible it doesn't matter as much if the commissar is visible.

 ross-128 wrote:
So now in addition to Schrodinger's Conscripts (conscripts are both dispersed and concentrated at the same, they collapse into whichever formation is most advantageous when you observe them), we also just automatically assume that any map the Imperial Guard fight on is constructed like Omaha Beach.

"I wonder why we need so many guys to take this beach?"
"Must be Germans are OP."

I've really been wondering this.

"Just shoot the tanks! Space Marines have Lascannons, it's not like you're Orks or something and have to melee them!"

"I can't, they're behind buildings!"


I'm honestly not sure how you can fit 5+ tanks completely out of Line of Sight. On a 4x4 Battlefield [the regulation size for 1000 points], assuming there are approximately 2 Games Workshop terrain features distributed evenly per 2x2 tile, using Search and Destroy deployment, I don't think it's actually possible to completely hide more than 1 Manticore. Of course, that doesn't stop you from making a castle wall or something, or having a perfectly 5-Manticore-sized U-shaped building with no windows, but at some point it becomes your responsibility to point out that your opponent had set the board up in a completely unfair manner. [No offense to Marmatag, since Grey Knights have neither Missile Launchers nor Lascannons and, like Orks, have to kill tanks in CQC]


I am 90% certain that a hypothetical shooting opponent can target and blow up at least a few IG tanks and artillery guns.

 ross-128 wrote:
So now in addition to Schrodinger's Conscripts (conscripts are both dispersed and concentrated at the same, they collapse into whichever formation is most advantageous when you observe them), we also just automatically assume that any map the Imperial Guard fight on is constructed like Omaha Beach.

"I wonder why we need so many guys to take this beach?"
"Must be Germans are OP."

I mean, the rulebook has really vague guidelines for how to place terrain unless I'm overlooking something, so yeah generally you should always be able to get a big LoS blocking piece where you want it as guard, possibly two. That's still within the rulebook's suggestions, its hard to argue it's even being abusice so much as playing the game as intended. The only thing preventing this is sportsmanship or using a set of tournament or house rules.

Am I overlooking something?

SilverAlien wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So now in addition to Schrodinger's Conscripts (conscripts are both dispersed and concentrated at the same, they collapse into whichever formation is most advantageous when you observe them), we also just automatically assume that any map the Imperial Guard fight on is constructed like Omaha Beach.

"I wonder why we need so many guys to take this beach?"
"Must be Germans are OP."

I mean, the rulebook has really vague guidelines for how to place terrain unless I'm overlooking something, so yeah generally you should always be able to get a LoS blocking piece where you want it as guard, possibly two. Assuming standard GW terrain, this isn't really enough to hide more than 2 or 3 tanks.

Am I overlooking something?

Yeah.

Those LoS blocking terrain elements are placed before selection of deployment zones, and they're not nearly big enough to hide a half-dozen tanks behind them from all locations on the battlefield reasonably accessible to the enemy.

Let's look, for example, at a hypothetical game. There are 12 terrain features to be placed, an even mix of GW Ruins, GW Forest, GW Sector Mechanicus, and GW Battlescape. 2 are placed in each tile, as advised in the rulebook, so that they're evenly dispersed across the board.

It's likely that, in any given deployment zone, the Imperial Guard player will have 2 "opaque" terrain pieces behind which to hide a vehicle. From experience, a Sector Mechanicus thing can hide 1 tank, and a Ruin with all the windows boarded up can hide 2 if you're clever and squeeze in tight. However, both of these hiding places can be negated by the attacker moving to the left or the right.

The longer the deployment line, the harder it is to hide a tank, because the easier it is for the opponent to access enfilade positions that bypass your cover.

I have really never had a problem keeping my officers safe, and I've been using lots of 9-model infantry squads rather than Conscripts so it's presumably harder for me to both buff all my units and protect the officers. I've never felt like this has significantly compromised the effectiveness of my squads. My ranged firepower always seems to degrade much more slowly than my opponents'.

I can typically wait until the entire enemy army is deployed before I have to really commit to a deployment strategy. If I see deployed snipers, I make sure I'm either out of range or LoS. I usually want my blob to be as far away from the enemy as possible anyway.

Certainly nothing is going to deep strike within 12" of my officers -- the whole point of them is to be in the middle of a ton of infantry. Really nothing's going to deep strike within 24" of them most of the time until I start losing my forward units to enemy fire, and if I need to I can have an infantry squad advance up to prevent deep striking for another turn, or I can deep strike a throwaway unit on my turn that the enemy then has to kill.

I haven't run up against really fast CC yet like Warptime or Swarmlord shenanigans. I've seen beefy things in Land Raiders, and a mix of transported and deep striking assault squads. I can deal with the transported units by peeling off one or two squads at a time to go be speed bumps; if a squad isn't going to survive the turn anyway then I don't care if they're close to my Commissar or not. And then the deep strikers just never get a chance to come in on anything other than Ratlings or an outlying mortar team or a throwaway squad that I've advanced forward.

Edit: But yeah, meanwhile I have only rarely had trouble finding stuff to shoot with my stationary lascannons. Vehicles are hard to hide, especially if you have more than a few and you're trying to keep them all close to a buff character. I did play one game where someone only deployed two things, a Land Raider and a big FW dreadnought, and there was a turn or two where a few of my lascannons couldn't shoot, but this table had all these walls and ruins that the vehicles had to navigate around and through anyway. I may have lost a turn of shooting but it would have taken him two turns longer to get to my lines, and I was able to be really annoying about blocking alleys with throwaway units, etc.

sossen wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Proposing snipers as a solution to conscripts = never played with snipers, or against competent guard. It just doesn't work. If you have line of sight on the commissar your opponent is playing badly.

Wasn't thinking Vindicare.

There's also the Calidus(?...chick with polymorphine) Assassin who can deepstrike into charge range and then easily 1-round the hidden commissar you've got hiding behind that building.

Sure there are ways to even protect an officer in this case, but they all have their problems. You don't get to math-hammer conscripts while gaining the benefits of every single kind of positioning at the same time.

If the conscripts can move forward and rapid fire while taking orders, you're going to have to conga-line the conscripts for coherence and expose your officers to deepstrike assassination.

If you hide your officers inside the blob, removing enough conscripts makes the officers attackable in the fight phase, AND they'll be vunlerable to sniper fire the whole game because if the squad is in the open, so are the officers.

They cannot all attack with invincible officers that cannot be attacked by deepstrike. That kind of positioning is physically impossible.

Getting a deepstrike behind enemy lines is most often impossible if they have a model count like AM usually do. The minimum distance restricts you by a lot, even with a slightly shorter distance like the assassin has. And if you announce that you are placing an assassin in deepstrike, you can be sure that the AM player will think about it while positioning his army.

As for the different modes of moving in big blobs and firing vs acting as bubblewrap, that depends on the matchup. If your opponent intends to deepstrike close to or assault your army, you use them as efficient bubblewrap. If your opponent is very shooty you can freely use your conscripts as mobile flashlights, packing them as tightly as the circumstances allow you to. Since the shooty armies don't focus on getting the conscripts out of the way as fast as possible it doesn't matter as much if the commissar is visible.

I believe what he is getting at there is that if you look at conscripts, see what they can do, and assume they can do all of it at once, of course they will seem over powered. I'm not saying you think this, as you are noting that they have to alter by match up, but looking through this thread it seems people think they can be shooty bubblewrap that is also spread over the entirety of the board and always taking orders.

If they are acting as bubblewrap, they cannot effectively bring their numbers to bear as an offensive tool, same if they are simply scattered around a good chunk of the board to deny deep strike. If they are lined up in a wall marching 6" forward each turn with FRFSRF they cannot bubblewrap or deny deep strikes very well except along their very specific area. Conscripts need numbers to effectively do all of these jobs - flashlights don't do enough damage if the squad is reduced to few enough members to effectively use orders, and even removing casualties in the most advantageous way possible, you lose enough conscripts and your bubble wrap falls apart.

Probably the best fix for Conscripts is, as noted several times in the thread, is to give them a rule that either A) makes them lose 1d3 or 1d6 models to morale from Commissar (cannot be more than they would have lost to morale in first place though), or B) make orders only succeed on a 4+ on a single d6. Their issue isn't their stats or their price, so much as their scaling. Fix the scaling in such a way as above and they lose a touch of their bite while also being fairly fluffy - the Commissar has to blam 2 or 3 guys to keep the rabble in order, and the officer needs to baby step them to follow his orders to the letter.

So I actually looked through the GW terrain and never realized till now how few opaque pieces of terrain their are. Outside a few bits owned by the shop we play at sometimes and one other guy in our area, most of our stuff is homemade. This tends to mean we have more than a few pieces along the lines of "large rock hills" and "shipping containers", because those are easy to hand make.

SilverAlien wrote:
So I actually looked through the GW terrain and never realized till now how few opaque pieces of terrain their are. Outside a few bits owned by the shop we play at sometimes and one other guy in our area, most of our stuff is homemade. This tends to mean we have more than a few pieces along the lines of "large rock hills" and "shipping containers", because those are easy to hand make.

Yeah. I thought as much.

There's very little "official" terrain that's 100% opaque, since since vehicles have to both be in the terrain piece and be 50% obscured to even get the cover bonuses, that means that it's essentially impossible to actually get cover for the tanks, and if there's so much as a window in the wall, then the tank is entirely unprotected.


Now, most of us use non-GW terrain, probably, since it's expensive. One of the local stores has a collection of large european buildings, which are fun to play with because they have many removable floors to have troops on, and are also able to block off Line of Fire. However, most of the time, it's still possible to flank the building for enfilade fire, at which point it's granting no benefits if even a scrap of the vehicle is visible.

sossen wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I honestly can't see the problem with Conscripts. They are cheap, but their cost skyrockets with the various addons you need to make them get work done. People have been trying hard to break them, but scions seem to benefit way more from these combos than the conscripts do.

It does not skyrocket, the most efficient setup will cost you 60 pts per 300 pts of conscripts.

Which shows you haven't actually played many games against Guard. I've played 15 games this edition with two 30-man units of Conscripts so far, and not once have I been able to get away with buffing both sets with a single officer/commissar. The nature of terrain, needing to block multiple paths of approach, and the need to pursue objectives makes your most efficient combo a complete theoretical bogeyman.

Further, I have never achieved this mythical 120 shot FRFSRF. Either half the squad is out of range, out of LOS, or dead by the time FRFSRF at 12" comes into play. My all time best is 24/30 models getting full FRFSRF against a unit that failed its charge roll. Hell, I rarely even get to use FRFSRF because I'm usually giving them GBITF, MMM or FFTE instead.

Seriously, there should be a minimum games played with/against Conscripts requirement to post here.

RogueApiary wrote:
Which shows you haven't actually played many games against Guard. I've played 15 games this edition with two 30-man units of Conscripts so far, and not once have I been able to get away with buffing both sets with a single officer/commissar. The nature of terrain, needing to block multiple paths of approach, and the need to pursue objectives makes your most efficient combo a complete theoretical bogeyman.

Further, I have never achieved this mythical 120 shot FRFSRF. Either half the squad is out of range, out of LOS, or dead by the time FRFSRF at 12" comes into play. My all time best is 24/30 models getting full FRFSRF against a unit that failed its charge roll. Hell, I rarely even get to use FRFSRF because I'm usually giving them GBITF, MMM or FFTE instead.

Seriously, there should be a minimum games played with/against Conscripts requirement to post here.

I can't comment on your issues, all I can say from looking at the ETC lists:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ETC2017_8thedition_ListdocPreCorrections.pdf

is that you seem to have problems that most players running conscripts don't. Many of the lists above are running one commissar for two or more conscript squads. Some are running two commissars for three squads. The guy with 400 conscripts is running three commissars. Not all of them are running a full complement of commanders but they appear to not need particularly many in any case.

Note that I have never referred to a full unit of 50 conscripts getting rapid fire, that's a ridiculous idea and will never happen. I only ever talk about 24'' range.

sossen wrote:


I can't comment on your issues, all I can say from my own experience and from looking at the ETC lists:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ETC2017_8thedition_ListdocPreCorrections.pdf

is that you seem to have problems that most players running conscripts don't. Many of the lists above are running one commissar for two or more conscript squads. Some are running two commissars for three squads. The guy with 400 conscripts is running three commissars. Not all of them are running a full complement of commanders but they appear to not need particularly many in any case.

Note that I have never referred to a full unit of 50 conscripts getting rapid fire, that's a ridiculous idea and will never happen. I only ever talk about 24'' range.

Have the results from ETC come in yet? Just because people are bringing it doesn't necessarily mean it will do well. Looking at the top 3 ATC teams' lists. Only one of the top three teams had a member take conscripts, and he brought 80. It is also possible that these players saw how dominant flyer spam was in the first few events of 8th and are trying to counter it by bringing so many bodies the fliers can't possibly chew through them all? I also see some issues with doing well just from time constraints assuming 2.5 hour games. Placing 400 models is going to take a minute. Moving them every turn and rolling shots for those in range, even longer. Trays can help speed that up a bit until they bump into any terrain feature.

You may not have, but I've seen it in used in this thread multiple as 'proof' that Conscripts punch above their weight in terms of damage output.

In fact, Sossen was one of the people using that "proof" in other threads.