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Swara wrote:It'll be amazing if that IS true, but I'm gonna keep myself from getting naked and dancing in the streets until I see the codex. : P

All the TWC with rending Thunderhammers agree with you.

i.e. Wait until the codex, since this wouldn't be the first WD where earlier versions of rules made it in and were changed before the issue hit shelves.

Lemme get this straight. The German terminology for armor penetration is Panzerungsdurchschlag?


Brutal.

In a good way.

GiantSlingshot wrote:Lemme get this straight. The German terminology for armor penetration is Panzerungsdurchschlag?


Brutal.

In a good way.

RESPECT

Certainly, take it with a...truck of salt, yet even this small grain of information is a good sign. That'd be awesome. So...awesome.

GiantSlingshot wrote:Lemme get this straight. The German terminology for armor penetration is Panzerungsdurchschlag?.

Haha, yes it is

mate got his copy of the codex today, gonna be a long night of chatting on teamspeak

You must tell us these things.

If it is confirmed wraiths dont have RP

if it is confirmed that warsythes do 2d6 AP

the squad size of destroyrers 3 or 5

DO IT TELL ME CHIZAL.

Then i do really wanne know the new Wraith fluff and why they don't have RP.

my codex and doom ark have been shipped! YES!


time to beat my local blackshirt for my copy early

A bit of info from BramGaunt on the Artwork

Originally Posted by Zothos View Post
Sounds as though wraiths are constructs like scarabs and Spyders now. Makes me wonder how similar in look the new ones will be to the existing models when they arrive.
If they follow the artworks, not that much. Scarabs are the same, but the other two are really different.

Wraiths look like small metal Trygon, basically, and Spyders... well, they still have the same back, but more smaller legs in front.

Sasori wrote:A bit of info from BramGaunt on the Artwork

Originally Posted by Zothos View Post
Sounds as though wraiths are constructs like scarabs and Spyders now. Makes me wonder how similar in look the new ones will be to the existing models when they arrive.
If they follow the artworks, not that much. Scarabs are the same, but the other two are really different.

Wraiths look like small metal Trygon, basically, and Spyders... well, they still have the same back, but more smaller legs in front.

Sounds aswm, really loved the first wraiths but if they are like a small metal trygon whit a necron head that is also great.

And if they are constructs like scarabs and spyders that would explain why they have not a RP.

(still waiting for my codex to be shipped -_-, GW doesn't respond to my mails)

Sorry did I miss something; why wouldn't wraiths have RP? I mean Scarabs have it

cyberscape7 wrote:Sorry did I miss something; why wouldn't wraiths have RP? I mean Scarabs have it

BramGaunt said that Wraiths, Scarabs, and Tomb Spyders do not have RP.

If the same source is right about wraiths not having RP, then he is probably right about scarabs not getting it either.

bluebomber wrote:And FNP rolls werent put in that destroyer math either and lately thats all i find are FNPs

FNP doesn't work against weapons that ignore Armour Saves, so the Mathhammer should still stand.

azazel the cat wrote:5 Destroyers = 10 shots
10 shots @ BS 4 = 6.7 hits
6.7 hits @ Str 5 vs. Toughness 4 = 4.49 wounds
AP 3 = 4.49 dead marines

So in theory, if I were to play the Destroyer Wing that I love so dearly, every turn I could wipe out 3x 5-man tactical squads.

I would love for this to be true, but I just have a hard time believing it as a 5-unit squad size of Destroyers with AP3, Assault 2, 36" guns that move as JI for 40 points would make them just about the best anti-infantry unit in the game.

Also: every time the Destroyer wings wipe a squad, I plan to cheer "Panzerungsdurchschlag!". Because that is awesome.

azazel the cat wrote:

bluebomber wrote:And FNP rolls werent put in that destroyer math either and lately thats all i find are FNPs

FNP doesn't work against weapons that ignore Armour Saves, so the Mathhammer should still stand.

azazel the cat wrote:5 Destroyers = 10 shots
10 shots @ BS 4 = 6.7 hits
6.7 hits @ Str 5 vs. Toughness 4 = 4.49 wounds
AP 3 = 4.49 dead marines

So in theory, if I were to play the Destroyer Wing that I love so dearly, every turn I could wipe out 3x 5-man tactical squads.

I would love for this to be true, but I just have a hard time believing it as a 5-unit squad size of Destroyers with AP3, Assault 2, 36" guns that move as JI for 40 points would make them just about the best anti-infantry unit in the game.

Also: every time the Destroyer wings wipe a squad, I plan to cheer "Panzerungsdurchschlag!". Because that is awesome.

FNP works against AP 3. It doesn't work against things that always deny Armor Saves, such as Rending, and Ap 1 and 2.

azazel the cat wrote:

bluebomber wrote:And FNP rolls werent put in that destroyer math either and lately thats all i find are FNPs

FNP doesn't work against weapons that ignore Armour Saves, so the Mathhammer should still stand.

azazel the cat wrote:5 Destroyers = 10 shots
10 shots @ BS 4 = 6.7 hits
6.7 hits @ Str 5 vs. Toughness 4 = 4.49 wounds
AP 3 = 4.49 dead marines

So in theory, if I were to play the Destroyer Wing that I love so dearly, every turn I could wipe out 3x 5-man tactical squads.

I would love for this to be true, but I just have a hard time believing it as a 5-unit squad size of Destroyers with AP3, Assault 2, 36" guns that move as JI for 40 points would make them just about the best anti-infantry unit in the game.

Also: every time the Destroyer wings wipe a squad, I plan to cheer "Panzerungsdurchschlag!". Because that is awesome.

I think it should be called out anyway... for anything. Especially when your CC drives by a Land Raider and takes it out LOL

Sasori wrote:FNP works against AP 3. It doesn't work against things that always deny Armor Saves, such as Rending, and Ap 1 and 2.

Indeed. FNP will function against Gauss Cannons. One of the big losses of going from S6 to S5 (if true) will be losing FNP-denial against T3 (say, Dark Eldar).

Sasori wrote:FNP works against AP 3. It doesn't work against things that always deny Armor Saves, such as Rending, and Ap 1 and 2.

Dammit, you're right. You have no idea how much I did not want you to be right. I'd always misread the rule as if the Armour Save was ignored, then so was FNP, and thought it was confirmed because there were no FNP rolls when my Heavy Destroyers or Particle Whips shot Marines. *sigh* correct outcomes for the wrong reasons.

Okay then, here's my revised Mathhammer:

5 Destroyers @ 2 shots = 10 shots
10 shots @ BS 4 = 6.7 hits
6.7 hits @ Str 5 vs. T 4 = 4.49 wounds
No armour saves = 4.49 unsaved wounds
4.49 unsaved wounds vs. FNP = 2.25 dead Marines.

it's still better than 3 Destroyers with Str 6 weapons, which would only get 1.66 dead Marines

However, if it's possible to have up to 3 of your 5 Destroyers as Heavy upgrades, then 2 or 3 Heavy options becomes even better. However, I really have trouble believing this is a possibility. I'd be less skeptical if it was an option to have either 3 Heavy Destoryers, or 5 regular Destroyers.

So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

Sasori wrote:

No, I wasn't implying he gets that. What I was saying is that people are already paying close to the same points for 1 lord right now with nowhere near the same capabilities as Imotehk but now people are complaining he costs too much. I'm sure he can take a power weapon of some type. I just don't get why people are complaining about his cost when he clearly outshines the previous lords in just about every aspect and costs just a little more than a kitted out standard lord currently costs. Just because you can't abuse the night-fight rules means he sucks now? *Shrug*

No one has said he sucks, but some of his potential has been damaged by this latest development. Comparing him to previous Lords is pointless. What He needs to be compared to is current Lords. Wargear wise, everything but his Staff of the Destroyer and Bloodswarm nanoscarabs can be purchased on a regular Overlord, with most of those options being available for Court Lords as well. His special Abilities, such as the Night fighting and Seize on the 4+ is what you are really paying for. If people deem that those abilities aren't worth paying for over their own Homebrew Overlord, then it's perfectly understandable.

Personally, I plan to try out everything in the codex at least once. As of right now though, I'm leaning toward two Overlords on Command barges with the build I posted recently. If the 2D6 on Warscythes turns out to be true, then I will really have trouble replacing one of them for any of the Special Characters.

Don't forget the 2+ armor save. Overlords don't get that as standard from what I can see on the site.

Revarien wrote:So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

No, you have to choose between the 3+ standard and the 4++ reflection.

Sempiternal weave is war gear that grants a 2+ armor save. Overlords can take it.

Kevin949 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

No, I wasn't implying he gets that. What I was saying is that people are already paying close to the same points for 1 lord right now with nowhere near the same capabilities as Imotehk but now people are complaining he costs too much. I'm sure he can take a power weapon of some type. I just don't get why people are complaining about his cost when he clearly outshines the previous lords in just about every aspect and costs just a little more than a kitted out standard lord currently costs. Just because you can't abuse the night-fight rules means he sucks now? *Shrug*

No one has said he sucks, but some of his potential has been damaged by this latest development. Comparing him to previous Lords is pointless. What He needs to be compared to is current Lords. Wargear wise, everything but his Staff of the Destroyer and Bloodswarm nanoscarabs can be purchased on a regular Overlord, with most of those options being available for Court Lords as well. His special Abilities, such as the Night fighting and Seize on the 4+ is what you are really paying for. If people deem that those abilities aren't worth paying for over their own Homebrew Overlord, then it's perfectly understandable.

Personally, I plan to try out everything in the codex at least once. As of right now though, I'm leaning toward two Overlords on Command barges with the build I posted recently. If the 2D6 on Warscythes turns out to be true, then I will really have trouble replacing one of them for any of the Special Characters.

Don't forget the 2+ armor save. Overlords don't get that as standard from what I can see on the site.

Both Overlords and Lords appear to be able to take the Sempiternal Weave, which grants the 2+ armor save.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Revarien wrote:So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

No, you have to choose between the 3+ standard and the 4++ reflection.

No, you ALWAYS have to take the best save available to you. So if it's an AP4 weapon, you get your 3+ armor save and NOT the 4++ from the shield. If you're in 3+ cover, you get that save against AP3/2/1 and NOT your shield.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Revarien wrote:So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

No, you have to choose between the 3+ standard and the 4++ reflection.

Currently, nobody has even suggested the choice is allowed. You're compelled by the rules to take the best save available, so unless the Lychguard have specific wording allowing them to do otherwise, they'll only get the chance to reflect weapons that bypass their 3+.

Sasori wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

No, I wasn't implying he gets that. What I was saying is that people are already paying close to the same points for 1 lord right now with nowhere near the same capabilities as Imotehk but now people are complaining he costs too much. I'm sure he can take a power weapon of some type. I just don't get why people are complaining about his cost when he clearly outshines the previous lords in just about every aspect and costs just a little more than a kitted out standard lord currently costs. Just because you can't abuse the night-fight rules means he sucks now? *Shrug*

No one has said he sucks, but some of his potential has been damaged by this latest development. Comparing him to previous Lords is pointless. What He needs to be compared to is current Lords. Wargear wise, everything but his Staff of the Destroyer and Bloodswarm nanoscarabs can be purchased on a regular Overlord, with most of those options being available for Court Lords as well. His special Abilities, such as the Night fighting and Seize on the 4+ is what you are really paying for. If people deem that those abilities aren't worth paying for over their own Homebrew Overlord, then it's perfectly understandable.

Personally, I plan to try out everything in the codex at least once. As of right now though, I'm leaning toward two Overlords on Command barges with the build I posted recently. If the 2D6 on Warscythes turns out to be true, then I will really have trouble replacing one of them for any of the Special Characters.

Don't forget the 2+ armor save. Overlords don't get that as standard from what I can see on the site.

Both Overlords and Lords appear to be able to take the Sempiternal Weave, which grants the 2+ armor save.

Yes, but imotekh just "gets" it from what I can tell. That's what I was getting at, he doesn't have to choose it as the lords/overlords do (and thus be more expensive).

Kevin949 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Revarien wrote:So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

No, you have to choose between the 3+ standard and the 4++ reflection.

No, you ALWAYS have to take the best save available to you. So if it's an AP4 weapon, you get your 3+ armor save and NOT the 4++ from the shield. If you're in 3+ cover, you get that save against AP3/2/1 and NOT your shield.

Really? That makes the shield a bit more unimpressive.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Revarien wrote:So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

No, you have to choose between the 3+ standard and the 4++ reflection.

Choose? I thought you had to use whichever was better.
I hope I'm wrong, though; otherwise Lychguard will only be reflecting melta and plasma.
Edit: wow, beaten to it by like half a dozen people.

Kevin949 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

No, I wasn't implying he gets that. What I was saying is that people are already paying close to the same points for 1 lord right now with nowhere near the same capabilities as Imotehk but now people are complaining he costs too much. I'm sure he can take a power weapon of some type. I just don't get why people are complaining about his cost when he clearly outshines the previous lords in just about every aspect and costs just a little more than a kitted out standard lord currently costs. Just because you can't abuse the night-fight rules means he sucks now? *Shrug*

No one has said he sucks, but some of his potential has been damaged by this latest development. Comparing him to previous Lords is pointless. What He needs to be compared to is current Lords. Wargear wise, everything but his Staff of the Destroyer and Bloodswarm nanoscarabs can be purchased on a regular Overlord, with most of those options being available for Court Lords as well. His special Abilities, such as the Night fighting and Seize on the 4+ is what you are really paying for. If people deem that those abilities aren't worth paying for over their own Homebrew Overlord, then it's perfectly understandable.

Personally, I plan to try out everything in the codex at least once. As of right now though, I'm leaning toward two Overlords on Command barges with the build I posted recently. If the 2D6 on Warscythes turns out to be true, then I will really have trouble replacing one of them for any of the Special Characters.

Don't forget the 2+ armor save. Overlords don't get that as standard from what I can see on the site.

Both Overlords and Lords appear to be able to take the Sempiternal Weave, which grants the 2+ armor save.

Yes, but imotekh just "gets" it from what I can tell. That's what I was getting at, he doesn't have to choose it as the lords/overlords do (and thus be more expensive).

He's a special character, I doubt he chooses anything. I'm sure that it is factored into his points cost, regardless.

Sasori wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

No, I wasn't implying he gets that. What I was saying is that people are already paying close to the same points for 1 lord right now with nowhere near the same capabilities as Imotehk but now people are complaining he costs too much. I'm sure he can take a power weapon of some type. I just don't get why people are complaining about his cost when he clearly outshines the previous lords in just about every aspect and costs just a little more than a kitted out standard lord currently costs. Just because you can't abuse the night-fight rules means he sucks now? *Shrug*

No one has said he sucks, but some of his potential has been damaged by this latest development. Comparing him to previous Lords is pointless. What He needs to be compared to is current Lords. Wargear wise, everything but his Staff of the Destroyer and Bloodswarm nanoscarabs can be purchased on a regular Overlord, with most of those options being available for Court Lords as well. His special Abilities, such as the Night fighting and Seize on the 4+ is what you are really paying for. If people deem that those abilities aren't worth paying for over their own Homebrew Overlord, then it's perfectly understandable.

Personally, I plan to try out everything in the codex at least once. As of right now though, I'm leaning toward two Overlords on Command barges with the build I posted recently. If the 2D6 on Warscythes turns out to be true, then I will really have trouble replacing one of them for any of the Special Characters.

Don't forget the 2+ armor save. Overlords don't get that as standard from what I can see on the site.

Both Overlords and Lords appear to be able to take the Sempiternal Weave, which grants the 2+ armor save.

Yes, but imotekh just "gets" it from what I can tell. That's what I was getting at, he doesn't have to choose it as the lords/overlords do (and thus be more expensive).

He's a special character, I doubt he chooses anything. I'm sure that it is factored into his points cost, regardless.

Yes, that is the point I am making, as you stated earlier that you're paying for this and that, I wanted to add in the 2+ armor save that you did not mention that you are paying for by taking him. Regardless to the other lords being able to take it.