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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? That makes the shield a bit more unimpressive.

Why? Would you really chose to use a worse save on your 45 points model for the chance to bounce a shot back if you could?

I find the shields very underwhelming, in all honesty. It's nice that it give them a 3+/4++, but the reflection element seems like more of a novelty than anything actually useful. I rarely find my Necrons less than 6" away from enemies and not being in CC with them. Most troops that are going to lock into CC with the Necrons will move at least 6", then assault. The only time the relection would ever be useful is to prevent enemy squads from shooting into the Necrons to soften them up immediately prior to assaulting.

And the Necrons really did not need to be softened up before an assault.

So aside from the 4++ the shield adds, I just think the reflection element is almost meaningless once you look at it closely. Maybe if it would reflect 12", it would be useful. But as it stands, 6" is too small a range for a 50% chance of working and only after your enemy shooting at you in those exact circumstances.

Yes, that is the point I am making, as you stated earlier that you're paying for this and that, I wanted to add in the 2+ armor save that you did not mention that you are paying for by taking him. Regardless to the other lords being able to take it.

You are paying for it, with the total cost of the character. I don't understand what point you are trying to make, at all.

find the shields very underwhelming, in all honesty. It's nice that it give them a 3+/4++, but the reflection element seems like more of a novelty than anything actually useful. I rarely find my Necrons less than 6" away from enemies and not being in CC with them. Most troops that are going to lock into CC with the Necrons will move at least 6", then assault. The only time the relection would ever be useful is to prevent enemy squads from shooting into the Necrons to soften them up immediately prior to assaulting.

And the Necrons really did not need to be softened up before an assault.

So aside from the 4++ the shield adds, I just think the reflection element is almost meaningless once you look at it closely. Maybe if it would reflect 12", it would be useful. But as it stands, 6" is too small a range for a 50% chance of working and only after your enemy shooting at you in those exact circumstances.

The reason I'm buying the shields is for the 4++. Anything more than that is just icing on the cake for me.

Aldaris wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? That makes the shield a bit more unimpressive.

Why? Would you really chose to use a worse save on your 45 points model for the chance to bounce a shot back if you could?

If the shots were such that they pose far more of a threat to the enemy models (say, Orks firing Sluggas/Shootas, Gaunts firing whatever, etc) than they are to you then yes, I think a lot of people would choose to take the worse save under certain circumstances.

You're only losing the models that actually roll a "3", while reflecting the 4's 5's and 6's back at the attacker. And even the 3's will get a chance to make RP, potentially boosed by a Res Orb (which will likely be a common sight in Lychguard squads).

It's not something you'd want to do against some Blood Angels firing their Bolt Pistols at you, but there are definitely circumstances where the Void Shield would be preferable to the 3+ armor save.

azazel the cat wrote:I find the shields very underwhelming, in all honesty. It's nice that it give them a 3+/4++, but the reflection element seems like more of a novelty than anything actually useful. I rarely find my Necrons less than 6" away from enemies and not being in CC with them. Most troops that are going to lock into CC with the Necrons will move at least 6", then assault. The only time the relection would ever be useful is to prevent enemy squads from shooting into the Necrons to soften them up immediately prior to assaulting.

And the Necrons really did not need to be softened up before an assault.

So aside from the 4++ the shield adds, I just think the reflection element is almost meaningless once you look at it closely. Maybe if it would reflect 12", it would be useful. But as it stands, 6" is too small a range for a 50% chance of working and only after your enemy shooting at you in those exact circumstances.

It's basically there to annoy Assault-capable units with Meltaguns or Plasma Pistols. You might even scare the enemy into just not firing them, and that's still a good thing. That means one more Lychguard is potentially alive when the Assault comes.

And don't forget, with T5 3+/4++ 4+++ or 5+++, it's really only the heavy weapons that they'll fear in the first place. It really limits the opponents' ability to soften them up prior to an Assault.

Look at it from the perspective of an opposing player, say a BA Assault Squad.

If you fire your Meltagun and cause a wound, you have a 50% chance of killing a Lychguard. The Lychguard then has a 33%-50% chance to stand up before the Assault occurs, essentially rendering the shot meaningless if it happens. That means there's only really a 33%-25% chance of your Meltagun wound being useful.

However, the wound will reflect 50% of the time, killing one of your models. That makes it a losing proposition to even fire the weapon--you have a higher chance of doing damage to yourself than the enemy.

Another tidbit from Bramguant

Night Scythe is fewer points then the Ghost bark

That's a relief. I hope the end up at 90 points or less.

DJ3 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Revarien wrote:So the 'hit bouncing shields' of the Praetorians are 4++ right?


Does it clarify that if I tag a group of them with flamers, they can't just pick up the 1 and 2s as dead, and 3s as armor saves and 4+'s as rebounded hits... right?

As in, you must clarify which save you're taking? (or what wargear you're using, if you want to take a WHfantasy stance)... I just hate to say it, but there is no precedence for this in the main rulebook, and I just know someone is going to try to cheeseball this sort of thing: "You take these hits, because I rolled a 4+, but these 3s are armor saves"...

*sigh* I don't want to have to argue against this >.<

No, you have to choose between the 3+ standard and the 4++ reflection.

Currently, nobody has even suggested the choice is allowed. You're compelled by the rules to take the best save available, so unless the Lychguard have specific wording allowing them to do otherwise, they'll only get the chance to reflect weapons that bypass their 3+.

Hmm. It would be strange if their shields can only reflect ap 3 shooting. I'm curious to see how the shield rules are worded in the codex

DJ3 wrote:

Aldaris wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? That makes the shield a bit more unimpressive.

Why? Would you really chose to use a worse save on your 45 points model for the chance to bounce a shot back if you could?

If the shots were such that they pose far more of a threat to the enemy models (say, Orks firing Sluggas/Shootas, Gaunts firing whatever, etc) than they are to you then yes, I think a lot of people would choose to take the worse save under certain circumstances.

You're only losing the models that actually roll a "3", while reflecting the 4's 5's and 6's back at the attacker. And even the 3's will get a chance to make RP, potentially boosed by a Res Orb (which will likely be a common sight in Lychguard squads).

It's not something you'd want to do against some Blood Angels firing their Bolt Pistols at you, but there are definitely circumstances where the Void Shield would be preferable to the 3+ armor save.

if the Orks are in assault range of you, being able to reflect their shots is completely meaningless. Your squad is dead. They don't need to shoot you first, and therefore simply wouldn't. The shield then becomes a gurney, nothing more.

Dr. Delorean wrote:Let's see here, pg. 95:

"Barrage and Ordnance barrage weapons can still fire at targets in the dark, but if they do and fail to roll a hit, they add an extra d6" to the distance scattered."

So yeah, an effect, but not much of one, at least 1/3 of the time.

Just use a mixed group with a griffon. Have the griffon make the initial shot and form up the barrage on it. If it's in with basilisks or medusa's you've got about a 50/50 shot at blowing it away if it's moving flat out trying to get the cover save. The only down side is the griffon's shorter range increases the risk of them getting off a shot before you vaporize it.

aboytervigon wrote:You must tell us these things.

If it is confirmed wraiths dont have RP

if it is confirmed that warsythes do 2d6 AP

the squad size of destroyrers 3 or 5

DO IT TELL ME CHIZAL.

wraiths, scarabs and spiders dont have RP

warscythes are power weapons with +2str and 2d6 AP

destroyers are now 1-5 per squad with up to 3 being upgraded to heavies

chizal wrote:

aboytervigon wrote:You must tell us these things.

If it is confirmed wraiths dont have RP

if it is confirmed that warsythes do 2d6 AP

the squad size of destroyrers 3 or 5

DO IT TELL ME CHIZAL.

wraiths, scarabs and spiders dont have RP

warscythes are power weapons with +2str and 2d6 AP

destroyers are now 1-5 per squad with up to 3 being upgraded to heavies

Its confirmed? Like from the actual codex?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

chizal wrote:

aboytervigon wrote:You must tell us these things.

If it is confirmed wraiths dont have RP

if it is confirmed that warsythes do 2d6 AP

the squad size of destroyrers 3 or 5

DO IT TELL ME CHIZAL.

wraiths, scarabs and spiders dont have RP

warscythes are power weapons with +2str and 2d6 AP

destroyers are now 1-5 per squad with up to 3 being upgraded to heavies

Its confirmed? Like from the actual codex?

yep, chatting to mate with it now

Can you ask him how the Lych Shields Work?

azazel the cat wrote:

DJ3 wrote:

Aldaris wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? That makes the shield a bit more unimpressive.

Why? Would you really chose to use a worse save on your 45 points model for the chance to bounce a shot back if you could?

If the shots were such that they pose far more of a threat to the enemy models (say, Orks firing Sluggas/Shootas, Gaunts firing whatever, etc) than they are to you then yes, I think a lot of people would choose to take the worse save under certain circumstances.

You're only losing the models that actually roll a "3", while reflecting the 4's 5's and 6's back at the attacker. And even the 3's will get a chance to make RP, potentially boosed by a Res Orb (which will likely be a common sight in Lychguard squads).

It's not something you'd want to do against some Blood Angels firing their Bolt Pistols at you, but there are definitely circumstances where the Void Shield would be preferable to the 3+ armor save.

if the Orks are in assault range of you, being able to reflect their shots is completely meaningless. Your squad is dead. They don't need to shoot you first, and therefore simply wouldn't. The shield then becomes a gurney, nothing more.

That's a bit dramatic. Your average Trukk Boyz squad would only kill 3 Lychguard and take two casualties in return.

Sasori wrote:Another tidbit from Bramguant

Night Scythe is fewer points then the Ghost bark

That's a relief. I hope the end up at 90 points or less.

If that is the case these transports will be all over the table. 15 models, plus multiple Tesla destuctors, (s7 ap- as4, tesla, arc) on a fast vehicle will be a serious counter to dark eldar venom spam and razor back spam (but they will crumble to rifleman dreads and hydra tanks).

did I read in bram's post that all cryptek wargear aside from the staves is unique? If that is the case there can only be one solar pulse, one chronometron, one VoD, etc. I hope it is as yak stated and we can get 2 instead...

chizal wrote:

wraiths, scarabs and spiders dont have RP

warscythes are power weapons with +2str and 2d6 AP

destroyers are now 1-5 per squad with up to 3 being upgraded to heavies

Okay, my Deathwatch Kill-Marine will definitely get a new weapon.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Sasori wrote:Another tidbit from Bramguant

Night Scythe is fewer points then the Ghost bark

That's a relief. I hope the end up at 90 points or less.

If that is the case these transports will be all over the table. 15 models, plus multiple Tesla destuctors, (s7 ap- as4, tesla, arc) on a fast vehicle will be a serious counter to dark eldar venom spam and razor back spam (but they will crumble to rifleman dreads and hydra tanks).

did I read in bram's post that all cryptek wargear aside from the staves is unique? If that is the case there can only be one solar pulse, one chronometron, one VoD, etc. I hope it is as yak stated and we can get 2 instead...

I think he said Per court.

wyomingfox wrote:

The person on Warseer whom Kelvan quoted is BramGaunt, who is a well respected rumor monger up there with Hastings and Harry. If BramGaunt said it, than odds are it is true (especially since he later said that he previewed the soon to be released codex). If Kelvan had stated that BramGaunt was the originator of the rumor, then I am sure Yakface's (who has the Play Test Codex) response would have been different.

Not to harp on anyone in particular, but if you quote someone on another forum (or this one), please include the person's user name in your post

Some sources don't want to be revealed by nicknames or at all. So it is better to not include user name. For example I'm guy from nowhere. However, from a month I have access to several pages of new codex. All of what I have seen is with agreement with current rumours.

Kelvan wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

The person on Warseer whom Kelvan quoted is BramGaunt, who is a well respected rumor monger up there with Hastings and Harry. If BramGaunt said it, than odds are it is true (especially since he later said that he previewed the soon to be released codex). If Kelvan had stated that BramGaunt was the originator of the rumor, then I am sure Yakface's (who has the Play Test Codex) response would have been different.

Not to harp on anyone in particular, but if you quote someone on another forum (or this one), please include the person's user name in your post

Some sources don't want to be revealed by nicknames or at all. So it is better to not include user name. For example I'm guy from nowhere. However, from a month I have access to several pages of new codex. All of what I have seen is with agreement with current rumours.

If he is posting on a forum, then clearly he doesn't care about being "revealed".

chizal wrote:

warscythes are power weapons with +2str and 2d6 AP

Kiss your asses goodbye, tanks. See that huge overlord in his Command Barge over there? It will be the very last thing you will ever see in your life *sweeps over, hits rear armor with S7 and 2d6 AP, blows vehicle up*.

Ladies, gentlemen...we got a clear winner.

Also...5 destroyers per squad? MEQ hunters, I choose you.

/e: Okay, wait..this means...if I sweep over a Dreadnought, I get three attacks on his AV 10, attacks that hit on 3+ or 4+ (which basically means about 2 attacks hit) and these attacks cause a Penetrating Hit with a chance of 90%? Sweet, our SM player fields two DREANDNOUGHTS. Not Cybots. Dreadnoughts.

As long as you move 12 or less, you can disembark and assault the other one after killing the first in your movement phase.

Sigvatr wrote:
Kiss your asses goodbye, tanks. See that huge overlord in his Command Barge over there? It will be the very last thing you will ever see in your life *sweeps over, hits rear armor with S7 and 2d6 AP, blows vehicle up*.

Ladies, gentlemen...we got a clear winner.

Hehe. Now imagine two Overlords doing this, they'd propably try to one-up each other all the time in who can blow more stuff up.

So is it any vehicle or only one, If its any vehicle under the barge say good bye to that Parking lot.

tetrisphreak wrote:As long as you move 12 or less, you can disembark and assault the other one after killing the first in your movement phase.

Gonna make my GK player and his dual gunner dreads mad.

DJ3 wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

DJ3 wrote:

Aldaris wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Really? That makes the shield a bit more unimpressive.

Why? Would you really chose to use a worse save on your 45 points model for the chance to bounce a shot back if you could?

If the shots were such that they pose far more of a threat to the enemy models (say, Orks firing Sluggas/Shootas, Gaunts firing whatever, etc) than they are to you then yes, I think a lot of people would choose to take the worse save under certain circumstances.

You're only losing the models that actually roll a "3", while reflecting the 4's 5's and 6's back at the attacker. And even the 3's will get a chance to make RP, potentially boosed by a Res Orb (which will likely be a common sight in Lychguard squads).

It's not something you'd want to do against some Blood Angels firing their Bolt Pistols at you, but there are definitely circumstances where the Void Shield would be preferable to the 3+ armor save.

if the Orks are in assault range of you, being able to reflect their shots is completely meaningless. Your squad is dead. They don't need to shoot you first, and therefore simply wouldn't. The shield then becomes a gurney, nothing more.

That's a bit dramatic. Your average Trukk Boyz squad would only kill 3 Lychguard and take two casualties in return.

Great. So that's 20-40% of the Necron squad gone, and 7-10% of the Ork squad. or, 90 points of Necrons versus 18 points of Orks. Per round of combat.



And now...

Complex Destroyer Wing Mathhammer!

Heavy Destroyers
1 shot @ BS 4 = 0.67 hits
0.67 hits @ Str 9 vs. T 4 = 0.56 wounds
No armour save or FNP = 0.56 dead marines

Destroyers
2 shots @ BS 4 = 1.33 hits
1.33 hits @ Str 5 vs. T 4 = 0.89 wounds
No armour save
0.89 unsaved wounds vs. FNP = 0.45 dead Marines

Squad of 3 Heavy Destroyers & 2 Destroyers = 2.58 dead Marines per round of shooting

aboytervigon wrote:So is it any vehicle or only one, If its any vehicle under the barge say good bye to that Parking lot.

Only one.

Why would you send a AT heavy squad marine hunting?

Swara wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:As long as you move 12 or less, you can disembark and assault the other one after killing the first in your movement phase.

Gonna make my GK player and his duel gunner dreads mad.

As well you should. Turn 1 should be spent turbo boosting, with av13 and 4+ cover you'll be relatively safe, turn 2 chop them up. Just make sure to pay points for a Sempiternal weave and phase shifter.

Swara wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:As long as you move 12 or less, you can disembark and assault the other one after killing the first in your movement phase.

Gonna make my GK player and his duel gunner dreads mad.

I can't wait to field two Tachyon Arrows and the Harp of Dissonance against some psyriflemen.

If you can knock out Two Psyriflemen on the first turn, before they can even get a chance to shoot, you've really crippled the GKs Anti Tank. That would just be fantastic.

Sasori wrote:

Swara wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:As long as you move 12 or less, you can disembark and assault the other one after killing the first in your movement phase.

Gonna make my GK player and his duel gunner dreads mad.

I can't wait to field two Tachyon Arrows and the Harp of Dissonance against some psyriflemen.

If you can knock out Two Psyriflemen on the first turn, before they can even get a chance to shoot, you've really crippled the GKs Anti Tank. That would just be fantastic.

Plus you can easily out range them with unlimited range. To pour salt in their wounds, pop a solar pulse and make them squint on their first shooting phase.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would you send a AT heavy squad marine hunting?

Because there aren't any tanks left after the Overlords on Command Barges have had their way with the enemy army.

And because, while it would make more sense to have one squad of 3 Heavy Destroyers and 2 squads of 5 Destroyers, the 3-Heavy-Destroyer squad can still have 2 regular Destroyers tossed in there anyway, so I figured I'd do the math for that one, too.

Or maybe because I like the idea of having 3 squads that are general purpose for firing at whatever, to approximately the same effect. (okay, not really)