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I think the new VC models were designed to be used in WTOW also, and any future sigmar releases for factions we will see in old world will be designed to fit in both systems I think. Makes sense right?

 nathan2004 wrote:
I think the new VC models were designed to be used in WTOW also, and any future sigmar releases for factions we will see in old world will be designed to fit in both systems I think. Makes sense right?

Disagree. I think the scale creep kills it for me.



40+mm tall vampires in a 28mm game look odd to me.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
I think the new VC models were designed to be used in WTOW also, and any future sigmar releases for factions we will see in old world will be designed to fit in both systems I think. Makes sense right?

Disagree. I think the scale creep kills it for me.



40+mm tall vampires in a 28mm game look odd to me.

I don't disagree with your overall point about exceptionally tall vampires, but that picture is misleading. Any modern GW human model that would be generally agreed on as being normal sized would make a Warhammer human from the 90s look like a runt. Warhammer is not a 28mm game and hasn't been for two decades. The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.

The other thing not really mentioned about ranges not being available and they’ll have to make new ones etc.

They might just bring back old stuff, it’s not like they threw loads of production stuff out because they were no longer stocking on shelves etc..

 Geifer wrote:
The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.

if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems

but this is the same with Horus Heresy, they have the old scale for Marines with the old base sizes and are independent from what GW is doing in 40k
so don't expect that they follow the AoS route and make models compatible in both systems, specially if they can sell 2 armies on people who want to play both instead of 1

Warhammer Fantasy was a mess when it got dropped, and the AoS squattings have not helped in that regard. GW could easily bring back plastic kits from Fantasy I imagine, and probably metal/resin ones as well. But it makes more sense for some things then others.

As great as some High Elf kits are, they're one of those shiny examples of the Core troubles that plagued Fantasy. GW did new, shiny elites and monsters but neglected to update Core units. Sea Guard are great, but limited to the starter box sprue and a five many easy build kit. If you want several units with command groups, you end up with a lot of other High Elf models and tons of rats as well. So even if GW released Blood Isle, it wouldn't solve the issue with trying to build the core of your army. Spearmen and Archers are ancient, ugly models. I doubt GW sold a lot of them back in the day. I don't see them selling if brought back for the Old World.

Tomb Kings have a similar problem, but worse since they don't have the benefit of a refresh in a starter box. I started buying the skeletons that would eventually go into my Tomb Kings army twenty five years ago (minus the Tomb Kings upgrade sprue, obviously). They were not good models even then. And they still stuck around as the Core of the army until they got squatted half a year into AoS. Sure, you could just release the same kits that were available six or seven years ago, but how much could GW hope to sell of such a jumbled assortment of in parts subpar models?

There are armies that are in better shape, and as has been said, those are the ones that still get sold for AoS because they hold up. Beastmen, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves could easily be repackaged for the Old World.

If as we assume there's a rules compendium to make all the old armies playable, it stands to reason that GW would want to be able to sell those to interested players in one form or another. I think the worst case scenario here is that they offer a made to order run because they know the issues with some armies will stop them from selling, and from a player perspective you will need to be interested at the right time and have the disposable money, and ideally the foresight to buy everything you need for your future army. I really hope that's not what GW has in mind, but you never know. They already have trouble keeping stuff in stock without adding all those old, bad sellers back to the catalogue.


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 kodos wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.

if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems

but this is the same with Horus Heresy, they have the old scale for Marines with the old base sizes and are independent from what GW is doing in 40k
so don't expect that they follow the AoS route and make models compatible in both systems, specially if they can sell 2 armies on people who want to play both instead of 1

Frankly I don't expect 20mm bases to survive. Whatever GW says about using your old models/armies, I'll believe it when I see it. In the last half decade of Fantasy, the demands of established base sizes and what the designers sculpted rarely overlapped.

GW's games are model driven and they're not going to start sculpting smaller models because of rules considerations. They'll sculpt the same sized models as they do for their other games, write rules to match them and write a dismissive disclaimer in the designers' notes that you can totally use your old models by giving them expanded unit trays or something to account for unit width. Or just use them the way they are, no big deal. Something with opponent's permission, Forge the Narrative and how their rules are totally flexible enough to account for such differences.

 kodos wrote:

if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems

All the Empire kits continued to come with the small square bases for ages into AoS and though its not listed in their product description, the product images for everything but Demigryphs and Wizards is on square bases. Plus as others have said, GW will still have the moulds.
BTW when GW said "You can use your old WHFB armies", how far back did you really think they were meaning? They're not going to cater to people who hadn't bought anything new since the 1990s.

but this is the same with Horus Heresy, they have the old scale for Marines with the old base sizes and are independent from what GW is doing in 40k
so don't expect that they follow the AoS route and make models compatible in both systems, specially if they can sell 2 armies on people who want to play both instead of 1

Not sure what you mean here. HH has been using 32mm for Marines since the Calth box and only a select few models (Kharn, Loken) suffer from slightly small bases. The only differences between some of the plastic kits and resin ones is leg thickness and eye lenses on the MkIII. The move to 32mm was roundly praised because 25mm bases were too small.

GW has always said "you can use your old models" in almost every single game. Technically you can use your old Greater Demon models from the 1st generation release where they are little bigger than an ogor.


GW has NEVER been a tight rules company when releasing their game. They will always take the "your game your rules" and "you can always use your models" kind of angle because that fits their approach.

That doesn't mean new models for a new game are going to be made to the same size and standard as they were in the 1980s. Heck look at the new Greater Demons - they are Forgeworld model sizes and dwarf the old models (heck one or two are bigger than their FW counterparts). GW has no problem invalidating your old models for creative reasons.

Of course chances are being a rank and file game the only thing that will matter is the size of the movement tray. So you can likely take those older, smaller models, and just put them on a bigger base. Perhaps double up the numbers so that they look like a mass of troops. That would be the approach.

 kodos wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.

if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems

Here is the paragraph from the The Old World update that talks about sizes:

"What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want."

For me it says that you will be able to add the new miniatures to your existing collection. This said especially in the last part of the sentence.

Which would be cool, since it wouldnt stir more anger on the subject.

True but GW have never been strict with their heroic scaling and it has drifted over the years here and there .

GW saying its the same scale is the same as GW saying its the best rules ever written. It's still within their ecosystem. I would wager it just means that they aren't going for 6mm or 75mm scale changes. That it will be another 28-32mm heroic scale wargame like Age of Sigmar and 40K and Old World (keeping in mind most of AoS are just Old World models)

 herjan1987 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.

if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems

Here is the paragraph from the The Old World update that talks about sizes:

"What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want."

For me it says that you will be able to add the new miniatures to your existing collection. This said especially in the last part of the sentence.

Which would be cool, since it wouldnt stir more anger on the subject.

Quote it all day, people will still barrage with their wishlisting and their nihilistic views. Hell, AFTER that press release people were still suggesting it was going to be a Warmaster redux...

I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.

Some of the old Wood Elf art would not have looked out of place in Ghyran, nor would some of the old High Elf art have looked out of place in the Lumineth.

Why bother with TOW as old Warhammer if they're just making it AOS? They wouldn't have to bother with the whole announcement about squares. No, it won't be that at all. Thankfully there will be no FireSquats or BalloonSquats retconned in.

Man this thread is just a circle jerk of salt at this point :(

Just to add a bit of positivity, I would absolutely be all in with this game if High Elves are back in all their former glory. Along with Vamp. Counts, High Elves were always the army I wanted growing up as a kid.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think its naive to assume that GW started designing a new ruleset set in a new time period only to rerelease its existing back catalog of old and dated sculpts that nobody bought when they were still considered state of the art.

How much do you think ancient races like the High Elves changed in a few hundred years? Do you suspect Chaos or Beastmen differed greatly before Karl Franz came about? Did the fine folks down in Khemri go through a massive Nu Wave fashion change just before Franz hit the scene, and all collectively decided to ditch their 1920's Flapper style and switch to more Ancient Egyptian themes? Or is it more likely that they were Ancient Egyptian themed 100, 200 even 500 years prior to Fancy Franz?

Of everything you listed, the only faction that we know to actually be in the game (beyond whatever day 1 Index they release and then never update again so that legacy WHFB players can return with their old armies) are High Elves.

I'm sure they will bring back a lot of those older kits on "Last Chance to Buy" for a few weeks when The Old World finally drops, but if you expect to play the game and get regular balance updates, have a competitive army, or be able to partake in whatever new fantasy sculpts GW will be releasing you will need to "get with the program" and buy into the new factions with their new aesthetics and army lists, etc.

I think the worst case scenario here is that they offer a made to order run because they know the issues with some armies will stop them from selling, and from a player perspective you will need to be interested at the right time and have the disposable money, and ideally the foresight to buy everything you need for your future army. I really hope that's not what GW has in mind, but you never know. They already have trouble keeping stuff in stock without adding all those old, bad sellers back to the catalogue.

Thats exactly what they have in mind.

If they do last chance to to runs I would be in big trouble. I would need some more Bretonnian Men-at-arms, Bowmen, all sorts of knights and thats just one faction. Not speak of Tomb kings tomb guards, Necropolis Knights, Usabthi and the Warsphinx kit. And many other faactions characters. My wallet would cry on those days....

Just Tony wrote:Quote it all day, people will still barrage with their wishlisting and their nihilistic views. Hell, AFTER that press release people were still suggesting it was going to be a Warmaster redux...

Or argumenting that GW will blend in AoS into WH:ToW:

Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.

Makes no sense.

RazorEdge wrote:

Just Tony wrote:Quote it all day, people will still barrage with their wishlisting and their nihilistic views. Hell, AFTER that press release people were still suggesting it was going to be a Warmaster redux...

Or argumenting that GW will blend in AoS into WH:ToW:

Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.

Makes no sense.

Yeah, I was just gonna let that one slip by. AOS people seem REALLY irritable about this existing.

RazorEdge wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.

Makes no sense.

Really?

It's not like "Cities of Sigmar" exists, with a vast range of realm-based potential for the different factions that make it up.

For me, I find it hard to imagine they'd create a whole new game, and not require you to buy models made for that game.

But, who knows.

I can't see how they would be able to sculpt things in the new scale and still fit them onto 20mm square bases and have them rank up. If they don't do that, then they can't honestly claim you can use your old army with the new models. Then again, they also said you could use your fantasy models in Age of Sigmar. When they say you can use our old models, they don't necessarily mean you can just use them as they are just like you used to, or as just the same as you'd use the new ones.

 jaredb wrote:
For me, I find it hard to imagine they'd create a whole new game, and not require you to buy models made for that game.

But, who knows.

They won;t require it but will encourage it - otherwise as you say they will not keep the game going very long.

 herjan1987 wrote:
If they do last chance to to runs I would be in big trouble. I would need some more Bretonnian Men-at-arms, Bowmen, all sorts of knights and thats just one faction.

My wallet would consider itself fortunate if they did another run on those; probably escape with a box of bowmen or two. If they did some Made to Order runs on the (much better) 5th Edition range though.... I'd probably have to re-mortgage.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I can't see how they would be able to sculpt things in the new scale and still fit them onto 20mm square bases and have them rank up. If they don't do that, then they can't honestly claim you can use your old army with the new models. Then again, they also said you could use your fantasy models in Age of Sigmar. When they say you can use our old models, they don't necessarily mean you can just use them as they are just like you used to, or as just the same as you'd use the new ones.

I think we'll see a general need to rebase. Most stuff will move to 25mm squares or even a size larger.

Personally I'm hoping for 6th edition army sizes to keep this reasonable on the scale of a sub game but we'll see.

So 2 years after the announcement, there isn't much known about WTOW.

Unless i missed something, are there any clues of when it will be released, what armies are playable, what general the rules will be like?

And yes I know, they said it will take like 4 to 5 years to be here, but we are like nearly half way.
I was hoping to see more then just a map with some icons and a few pics of empire people.
They should have more right?
Did brexit and corona slowed the process down or not? Imo it would have helped!
They should talk about stuff like that to.

The short answer to most of that is no, we don't really know anything because GW doesn't care to talk about The Old World yet.

Which, as you rightly suggest, is far from ideal.

I'm 100% sure that Corona will have slowed the process considering GW lost several months last year to lockdowns and even after that resuming work has been slow to get back to offices and team work in the same building.

That said don't forget these projects are big things. GW has concept art to design; backgrounds to write; rules to design; models to sculpt and part; choices on how many moulds and what's going in a kit to make etc... There's a huge amount of parts that have to move alongside work for all their current mainline games.

GW estimated it would take 4-5 years and I wouldn't expect to see serious details or marketing until a year before release at best. I think any earlier just runs the risk that GW ends up talking about ideas that might never make it into the final product and that's not good marketing.

The last thing they want is to build hype for something that ends up not coming or release small bits of info that get taken out of context and before you now the the market expects Z when they are going to get Y. Heck even just the announcement had some people going "oh will it be warmaster scale"

I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.

Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?