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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1795_Musket

Is that it?

Edit:

And this Perry?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry

If so, wow.

That would, in fact, be it. (and yes, that Perry. He stripped every Pittsburgh gunsmith of anything that could shoot before marching to Erie)

It shoots (and feels) like a somewhat lighter Charleville (or at least, compared to mine, which is the 1763 model), though the Confederates put a "French style" percussion conversion on it, but instead of putting a new hammer on it, they put a piece of pipe in the flintlock hammer.

Very cool!

Also....does that make you a Sand Person?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Also....does that make you a Sand Person?

No, the rifles that Lucas patterned sand people's weapons after are Arabian rifles and muskets.



I do have one of those, but it's a .58 Polygonal barrel percussion rifle. I'll admit, I've never had the balls to try firing it.

Well your collection is absolutely bonkers. Oldest firearm I've ever even held was a Turkish Mauser. I did see some...I think flintlock pistols at a local gun shop that had been on sale for ages.

Edit: They may have been percussion. My firearm knowledge is limited to American weapons from the Civil War era onwards.

 trexmeyer wrote:
Well your collection is absolutely bonkers. Oldest firearm I've ever even held was a Turkish Mauser. I did see some...I think flintlock pistols at a local gun shop that had been on sale for ages.

Edit: They may have been percussion. My firearm knowledge is limited to American weapons from the Civil War era onwards.

My father had the theory that if you were taller than the gun, you could shoot it.

Thus, the very first gun my father ever had me shoot was a 1828 Pottsdam musket (a .70 cal) that had been cut off right after the first barrel band for cavalry use. I landed on my ass, because the recoil was monstrous, but I did obliterate the target. And the tree it was attached to.

I clearly don't own it for a number of reasons, legal being #1. But I have fond memories of shooting a defective cheese puff round out of a M203 that slammed perfectly into a tree about 6 inches in diameter and just about split it perfectly.

SemperMortis wrote:
I clearly don't own it for a number of reasons, legal being #1. But I have fond memories of shooting a defective cheese puff round out of a M203 that slammed perfectly into a tree about 6 inches in diameter and just about split it perfectly.

Man, I had forgotten about the cheese puff rounds. Those were so satisfying to watch explode.

LOL

Best one I've ever seen was Pittsburgh PD wanted to see what the armed vessel license was about a pal of mine wanted, they made him show them what the weapons in question would do to, say, a squad car. (despite being on the lower end of the Naval Gun scale, they were still on the Naval Gun scale.)

The first shot, the drivers side door exited through the passenger side door, and the only reason we know this is a high speed camera recorded the whole debacle, and a few moments later the second round hit something more substantial and made 'car confetti'.


Next time I see him, I'm gonna see if I can get a copy of the film to put on youtube.

So my brother and I swapped pistols this morning. My mother had given me a Davis Industries .38 cal over/under Derringer that I really had no attachment to. My brother had been sitting on a Davis industries P-32 semi-auto .32 cal pistol that he'd been trying to pawn off on me for $50. Two days ago he asked how much I'd take for the Derringer since I was a bit dissatisfied with it, and I jokingly said "$50 so I can buy your chick gun.". Well, he brought over the .32 with a case of ammo and we called it even.

Here's a google link to pics of what the pistol looks like. Mine is the black with wood grain grips.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=911&ei=IHyrX4-NEM7YsAWAtZTwDw&q=Davis+Industries+p-32&oq=Davis+Industries+p-32&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyBAgAEB4yBAgAEB4yBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBg6BQgAELEDOggIABCxAxCDAToGCAAQCBAeULEBWKQ8YLlNaABwAHgAgAFPiAGRC5IBAjIxmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ved=0ahUKEwiPnY225vnsAhVOLKwKHYAaBf4Q4dUDCAY&uact=5

Just found out there's aftermarket extended mags. May look into this as where the end of the grip lands in my hand makes it... problematic to hold.

 Just Tony wrote:
So my brother and I swapped pistols this morning. My mother had given me a Davis Industries .38 cal over/under Derringer that I really had no attachment to. My brother had been sitting on a Davis industries P-32 semi-auto .32 cal pistol that he'd been trying to pawn off on me for $50. Two days ago he asked how much I'd take for the Derringer since I was a bit dissatisfied with it, and I jokingly said "$50 so I can buy your chick gun.". Well, he brought over the .32 with a case of ammo and we called it even.

Here's a google link to pics of what the pistol looks like. Mine is the black with wood grain grips.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=911&ei=IHyrX4-NEM7YsAWAtZTwDw&q=Davis+Industries+p-32&oq=Davis+Industries+p-32&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyBAgAEB4yBAgAEB4yBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBgyBAgAEBg6BQgAELEDOggIABCxAxCDAToGCAAQCBAeULEBWKQ8YLlNaABwAHgAgAFPiAGRC5IBAjIxmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ved=0ahUKEwiPnY225vnsAhVOLKwKHYAaBf4Q4dUDCAY&uact=5

Just found out there's aftermarket extended mags. May look into this as where the end of the grip lands in my hand makes it... problematic to hold.

You lost out on this deal. Davis' derringers were actually made of steel, and, while inaccurate, because derringers, are fairly reliable. The Autos, however, were not made of steel, but instead Zinc Alloy, and will degrade over time quite spectacularly. If it wasn't such a gak gun, I'd recommend taking it to a gunsmith on a regular basis to ensure it's still safe to shoot, but it's simply not worth the money that would take.

It's job is to put metal in a home invader, and to be able to be fired by my 8 year old daughter if necessary. As much as I would prefer a .45 ACP it wouldn't meet those requirements...

 Just Tony wrote:
It's job is to put metal in a home invader, and to be able to be fired by my 8 year old daughter if necessary. As much as I would prefer a .45 ACP it wouldn't meet those requirements...

I don't consider it a gak gun because it's not powerful enough, I consider it a gak gun because it's not safe. It's not safe in many ways. It's not drop safe, it's prone to jamming, and it's not made of steel so it degrades over time. Particularly since it's a Zamak type alloy and will corrode.

All of those things are, to put it mildly, reasons to not keep one in your house or depend on it for home defense. The derringer was the better option.

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

The forward grip is pretty decent, the main pistol grip is a bit small and needs another spacer

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
It's job is to put metal in a home invader, and to be able to be fired by my 8 year old daughter if necessary. As much as I would prefer a .45 ACP it wouldn't meet those requirements...

I don't consider it a gak gun because it's not powerful enough, I consider it a gak gun because it's not safe. It's not safe in many ways. It's not drop safe, it's prone to jamming, and it's not made of steel so it degrades over time. Particularly since it's a Zamak type alloy and will corrode.

All of those things are, to put it mildly, reasons to not keep one in your house or depend on it for home defense. The derringer was the better option.

I've researched all the problems as well as what PMCS to perform on it. It'll do its job well enough, and I'll still be getting a good. 45 ACP for myself

 Vaktathi wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

The forward grip is pretty decent, the main pistol grip is a bit small and needs another spacer

Nice.

Serious question. I like the AR-15 platform for its accuracy and range. It's fun to shoot. Does anyone actually buy those for home defense? I don't see how its superior to handgun or shotgun options for that specific purpose.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

The forward grip is pretty decent, the main pistol grip is a bit small and needs another spacer

Nice.

Serious question. I like the AR-15 platform for its accuracy and range. It's fun to shoot. Does anyone actually buy those for home defense? I don't see how its superior to handgun or shotgun options for that specific purpose.

It's been used quite a bit for home defense. Remember, the average home invasion has two or more attackers, and the average person only hits 9% of the time and it requires, on average, more than one hit to neutralize a home invader. The advantages to a shotgun are than it is much more controllable, lighter, and high capacity. It's also easier for a novice to use than a handgun and has faster follow up shots.

 trexmeyer wrote:
Oldest firearm I've ever even held was a Turkish Mauser. I did see some...I think flintlock pistols at a local gun shop that had been on sale for ages.

You know, this got me thinking, what's the oldest gun everyone's used?

Mine's a 1730's Land Pattern, though I had the opportunity to fire a late 17th century blunderbuss once, but I wussed out when I watched it break a guys arm. Anything bigger than 100 cal/one gauge is more for emplacements or Space Marines than something most people would want to shoot by hand, black powder or not.

 trexmeyer wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's a beautiful AR. I love the look of that grip. I've never had a chance to shoot one with that specific grip, how is it?

The forward grip is pretty decent, the main pistol grip is a bit small and needs another spacer

Nice.

Serious question. I like the AR-15 platform for its accuracy and range. It's fun to shoot. Does anyone actually buy those for home defense? I don't see how its superior to handgun or shotgun options for that specific purpose.

It's all going to depend on your home setup and the build of the AR. I personally don't keep firearms loaded and unlocked for that purpose currently, and a 16 or 20" barrel rifle doesn't make much sense within the confines of an apartment. A melee weapon or handgun, or at least something like a Tavor, make a whole lot more sense there. The super shorty I have isn't actually one set up for HD really, it's *really* hearing unsafe If you're in a large house, potentially with land that you might have to move about on, an AR, particularly of more normal size, makes a whole lot more sense (and is less likely to result in a child doing something unfortunate with if they find it just because it's bigger and more complicated, if that's a concern). I'm personally not as big of a fan of shotguns as some others are, mainly because of the low capacity and/or high chance or short stroking a pump action. There are places where an AR makes sense if home defense is a concern, and a lot of instances where it probably does not, but that's going to be a subjective and variable judgement.

Thanks for the input. Personally, I hate shotguns. I don't get the love for them at all.

 trexmeyer wrote:
I like the AR-15 platform for its accuracy and range. It's fun to shoot. Does anyone actually buy those for home defense? I don't see how its superior to handgun or shotgun options for that specific purpose.

If you use frangible ammo, you will penetrate significantly less drywall with .223 than you will with 9mm or buckshot. Additionally, the AR15 will give you the option of good light, good optics, greater ammo capacity, and - if you're using a short barrel - extend less from your body than a long shotgun or an extended pistol in a weaver stance.

Obviously this will vary greatly by the person, but I trust myself to be more accurate with one of my ARs in a high stress situation than I would with any of my pistols.

I am not a fan of shotguns.

Accuracy and magazine capacity are the main advantage of an AR, or similar semi-auto, for home defense over a pistol or shotgun.

Shotguns are powerful, but lower magazine size and the awkwardness of use makes shotguns not a good idea in a high stress situation. Many pump shotguns also lack safety features, so you can't store them loaded as safely as you could an AR. The high recoil of shotguns also makes them a bad idea for people of slimmer builds. Just type in Shotgun Fails into Youtube and you'll see why shotguns aren't the best idea for home defense.

Pistols can have decent magazine capacity, but because of the very short sight radius on pistols it is easy to miss targets. Even being slightly off with the iron sights can cause a shot to be several feet off. Pistols are also harder to control because you don't have multiple grip locations so the felt recoil is much larger. It is so much harder to put multiple shots on target with a pistol vs a semi-automatic rifle.

Finally, there is the guarantee that you won't be outgunned in the event an intruder is also armed. You'll have the superior firepower 99.999% of the time if you defend your home with an AR/AK/etc... On the very unlikely event they also brought one, at least you are on equal footing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 trexmeyer wrote:
Thanks for the input. Personally, I hate shotguns. I don't get the love for them at all.

Well, they are cheap and conceptually simple. You can get a basic pump shotgun for only a couple hundred bucks, and people have a simple understanding of how they work. Point in the general vicinity and click. Grossly oversimplified of course.

Its the thing that a person who isn't really into guns is going to buy if they feel compelled to get one for some reason. A noob trap if you will.

I feel like part of the appeal of pump shotguns in home defense isn't how they fire, as much as how they sound. If you can convince a home invader to leave just by racking a shell, that's all the better.

I'm curious- does anyone with one of those arm-strap braces ever actually use it while strapped to their arm?


Also, the Arabian guns are called "Jezzails" (sound familiar?) and are actually pretty neat, as they were sort of like custom-designed heirlooms, art pieces, and status symbols as much as they were tools or weapons.

Anvildude wrote:

I'm curious- does anyone with one of those arm-strap braces ever actually use it while strapped to their arm?

Probably very few. They're mostly counter balances/totallynotabuttstock

Anvildude wrote:
I feel like part of the appeal of pump shotguns in home defense isn't how they fire, as much as how they sound. If you can convince a home invader to leave just by racking a shell, that's all the better.

At my house, racking the pump would eject a perfectly good shell. Instead, the first sound someone hears would be BOOM!

Anvildude wrote:

Also, the Arabian guns are called "Jezzails" (sound familiar?) and are actually pretty neat, as they were sort of like custom-designed heirlooms, art pieces, and status symbols as much as they were tools or weapons.

I'll say that you're probably correct, but since it was acquired from Morocco (according to the vendor) and has a French lock, I suspect it's some sort of frankengun rather than a true jezail. It's also not safe to shoot, the stock has had several obvious repairs.


Also, in response to all the AR-15/AK posturing, remember that you want a weapon that you're comfortable with, that fits the environment you'll be using it in, and that is legal (assault rifles for some reason being a popular target of legislation). The shotgun actually does have advantages in a close range firefight. While it may not have the magazine capacity (usually, there are exceptions) that an AR or a pistol does, it's stopping power can be fantastic. Missing a mansized target at under 10 feet is less likely with a shotgun than with a pistol and unless you live in a mansion, the extra range really isn't needed.

And you can load a shotgun with all sorts of nastiness, though, caveat emptor, not all exotic shells are equal.

IMHO the AR is far superior to the shotgun in a HD situation.

12 guage, especially in a 00 load has a historically good result but the shotgun, especially the pump action, is not a good beginner weapon. And by beginner I'm meaning anyone who's unwilling or unable to practice with it. It takes dedication to get good at it and under stress you revert to your lowest level of competence, not your highest one. IMHO the shotgun has too much user interface to be reliable. Yes there have been cases of "buy it and leave it in the cupboard for 20 years but still used it successfully" stories, but short stroking or bad loading, and various other issues can cripple a shotgun.

Oldest firearm? Probably the 1890 Webley Mark IV bird's head revolver in .455. While I have fired (and owned) some muzzle loader flintlocks/precussion cap&ball guns I'm a metallic cartridge guy.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Anvildude wrote:

Also, the Arabian guns are called "Jezzails" (sound familiar?) and are actually pretty neat, as they were sort of like custom-designed heirlooms, art pieces, and status symbols as much as they were tools or weapons.

I'll say that you're probably correct, but since it was acquired from Morocco (according to the vendor) and has a French lock, I suspect it's some sort of frankengun rather than a true jezail. It's also not safe to shoot, the stock has had several obvious repairs.


Also, in response to all the AR-15/AK posturing, remember that you want a weapon that you're comfortable with, that fits the environment you'll be using it in, and that is legal (assault rifles for some reason being a popular target of legislation). The shotgun actually does have advantages in a close range firefight. While it may not have the magazine capacity (usually, there are exceptions) that an AR or a pistol does, it's stopping power can be fantastic. Missing a mansized target at under 10 feet is less likely with a shotgun than with a pistol and unless you live in a mansion, the extra range really isn't needed.

And you can load a shotgun with all sorts of nastiness, though, caveat emptor, not all exotic shells are equal.

About the flint lock, coming from Morocco. A souvenir Jezial was a common trade item that could be picked up cheaply in the early 20th century. Local wood craft and brass sand cast furniture wrapped around a possibly valuable antique lock. You can still find them at lawn sales if you get lucky. They get called "non firing replicas" by the people who don't realize they have a potentially functional weapon kicking around the house.

Kayback wrote:
IMHO the AR is far superior to the shotgun in a HD situation.

12 guage, especially in a 00 load has a historically good result but the shotgun, especially the pump action, is not a good beginner weapon. And by beginner I'm meaning anyone who's unwilling or unable to practice with it. It takes dedication to get good at it and under stress you revert to your lowest level of competence, not your highest one. IMHO the shotgun has too much user interface to be reliable. Yes there have been cases of "buy it and leave it in the cupboard for 20 years but still used it successfully" stories, but short stroking or bad loading, and various other issues can cripple a shotgun.

Other than short stroking though, those issues will occur with any firearm, or, some of them, any situation.

There was a gun that was undermanned at a reenactment about, twenty years ago now, the flicker dropped something, he bent over to pick it up, and his thumb slipped off the touch hole. There was a spark in the bore, and it blew the rammers arms off, fired the ramrod down field, and I can just remember that wub wub wub sound it made is it passed overhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
You can still find them at lawn sales if you get lucky.

I've seen better than that at lawn sales. My parents once bought a trunk of old clothing in Mercer PA. At the bottom was the last surviving PA militia uniform coat for the war of 1812. It looked like he came back, and just took it off and threw it in the trunk. Still had a pre Napoleon III salamander knife and some change in the pockets.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
Oldest firearm I've ever even held was a Turkish Mauser. I did see some...I think flintlock pistols at a local gun shop that had been on sale for ages.

You know, this got me thinking, what's the oldest gun everyone's used?

Mine's a 1730's Land Pattern, though I had the opportunity to fire a late 17th century blunderbuss once, but I wussed out when I watched it break a guys arm. Anything bigger than 100 cal/one gauge is more for emplacements or Space Marines than something most people would want to shoot by hand, black powder or not.

I've enjoyed shooting a Spencer carbine. I'm always considering picking up a reproduction. The Specer had been converted over to centerfire, a common conversion back in the day. There was something hypnotic about its manual of arms. I shot it enough to consider it used. I still carry a 100 year old Broom handle. Sometimes. It's total vanity to carry a C 96 Mauser. No, I don't use the holster stock for carry. Although if I was going to open carry the beast the stock holster would be the way to go.

I love strippers......stripper clips that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Kayback wrote:
IMHO the AR is far superior to the shotgun in a HD situation.

12 guage, especially in a 00 load has a historically good result but the shotgun, especially the pump action, is not a good beginner weapon. And by beginner I'm meaning anyone who's unwilling or unable to practice with it. It takes dedication to get good at it and under stress you revert to your lowest level of competence, not your highest one. IMHO the shotgun has too much user interface to be reliable. Yes there have been cases of "buy it and leave it in the cupboard for 20 years but still used it successfully" stories, but short stroking or bad loading, and various other issues can cripple a shotgun.

Other than short stroking though, those issues will occur with any firearm, or, some of them, any situation.

There was a gun that was undermanned at a reenactment about, twenty years ago now, the flicker dropped something, he bent over to pick it up, and his thumb slipped off the touch hole. There was a spark in the bore, and it blew the rammers arms off, fired the ramrod down field, and I can just remember that wub wub wub sound it made is it passed overhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
You can still find them at lawn sales if you get lucky.

I've seen better than that at lawn sales. My parents once bought a trunk of old clothing in Mercer PA. At the bottom was the last surviving PA militia uniform coat for the war of 1812. It looked like he came back, and just took it off and threw it in the trunk. Still had a pre Napoleon III salamander knife and some change in the pockets.

Cool find!

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Other than short stroking though, those issues will occur with any firearm, or, some of them, any situation.

The thing is worth a pump shotgun you get that chance every time you need to fire it.

With your AR you can do all the admin tasks before hand and literally flip the safety and fire. Under stress you need to use two user interactions to fire it, and one of those is firing it. You can load it and chamber check it and make sure the mag is seated in a nice quiet setting without any stress.

If either gun goes T/U you'd wish you had more practice to get it working again, sure, but the shotgun just has more chances of the user messing something up. A semi shotgun fixes some of these issues but not all.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 trexmeyer wrote:
Oldest firearm I've ever even held was a Turkish Mauser. I did see some...I think flintlock pistols at a local gun shop that had been on sale for ages.

You know, this got me thinking, what's the oldest gun everyone's used?

Mine's a 1730's Land Pattern, though I had the opportunity to fire a late 17th century blunderbuss once, but I wussed out when I watched it break a guys arm. Anything bigger than 100 cal/one gauge is more for emplacements or Space Marines than something most people would want to shoot by hand, black powder or not.

That I've actually fired? An actual combat used M1 Garand. Touched/owned? A .32 revolver that was over 100 years old, and a shotgun that was in our family for about the same amount of time.