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Let us be clear; I LOVE the Tau. I find their entire feel and fluff to be rather refreshing compared to the neverending grim dark, and as an army, I find thei unit designs exciting.

But they SUCK. My question entails this; what does the Tau codex require in order to be competative again?

I can't pretend I know enough of the game's intricacies, but I can clearly see that Fire Warriors are horribly done. They're very squishy, as designed, but their cost is too high, and the shooting strength that they SHOULD be known for is extremely underwhelming.

Regular Crisis Suits need to go to BS4. Fire Warriors go down to 7-8 pts.

Fire Warriors should have access to heavy weapon drones. Maybe a SMS, TL-burst cannon, or Networked ML.

A general recosting of everything will make things balanced.


Kroot need to be given some upgrades(in the form of adaptations)

Maybe Furious Charge, +1T, and 5+ armor as options.

The real issue is that fans don't know what they really want the tau army to be.

Cheaper firewarriors combined with already cheap kroot = horde.

BS 4 Firewarriors and BS 4 suits equals elite army, but they are xenos and as such shouldn't be as good as SM on a killy basis.

IMO the proper Tau army at 1500 points should field about 60 models including tanks. This army should be able to fight competitively against Necrons, BA, SW, DE, and Guard. GK is just such a badly designed army I don't care if anything reaches that OTT power level again.

So that means making stuff more survivable and making stuff more killy so that the army can last until turn 7 and still have the scoring units required to win/draw.

5th edition made close combat king. Tau universally suck at close combat. Therefore Tau suck.

5th edition made starting army distance an average of 18" instead of 24".

5th edition made cover almost universal. Firepower is lessened in importance.

5th edition made skimmers less survivable.

The codexes that have come out since Tau have generally reduced the cost and increased the effectiveness or both of their options. This has incrementally increased with each new codex.

So in summary, cross your fingers that 6th edition addresses some of these imbalances and wait for your new codex. Hope that some wingnut devolops it and makes some totally broken item that you can spam. <some sarcasm>

TermiesInARaider wrote:Let us be clear; I LOVE the Tau. I find their entire feel and fluff to be rather refreshing compared to the neverending grim dark, and as an army, I find thei unit designs exciting.

But they SUCK. My question entails this; what does the Tau codex require in order to be competative again?

I can't pretend I know enough of the game's intricacies, but I can clearly see that Fire Warriors are horribly done. They're very squishy, as designed, but their cost is too high, and the shooting strength that they SHOULD be known for is extremely underwhelming.

You must not remember when Tau were an unstoppable gunline infantry army. The army is quite simply 7 years (8?) and shortly 2 editions old.Really I'd like to see thier BS come up 1 on FWs and have the Codex be a little like DoW where you have to choose heavy Tau tech or big nast Kroot things. I'm hoping that the next Tau update doubles the number and type of Kroot forces and makes the Tau more of a high tech but smaller number IG...kind of like what they were (are?).

Grey Templar wrote:Regular Crisis Suits need to go to BS4. Fire Warriors go down to 7-8 pts.

Fire Warriors should have access to heavy weapon drones. Maybe a SMS, TL-burst cannon, or Networked ML.

A general recosting of everything will make things balanced.


Kroot need to be given some upgrades(in the form of adaptations)

Maybe Furious Charge, +1T, and 5+ armor as options.

sadly, none of those will work. bs4 crisis suits does not address any of their fundamental problems (extremely exxpensive, quite fragile, lacklustre firepower - lets face it, they're necessary, rather than good. and they're good because they're all we have.) they're the elite signature shooty unit in an army famous for its really big guns and its shooty abilities. and yet they're terrible at it. Look at other shooty units such as sternguard and obliterators. they have options, variable ammo types, morphable weapons. we have a hardpoint limit and have to choose - we're shackled to a design philosophy that is 2 editions out of date. Not only that, but all their at best mediocre firepower is best when unleashed at 12". which is stupid, considering that as a race, the tau favour long to etreme range firefights. the whole principle is "keep them at arms length", not "shoot when you see the whites of their eyes". No, bs4 wont solve their issues. which, as above, are many and varied. Crisis suits need a fundamental rethink. cheaper, tougher, an omnigun with multiple firing modes.

cheaper fire warriors. bad idea. the only unit that benefits from cheap fire warriors is kroot. fire warriors are terrible. if i can take 10 now for a 100pts, why would i take 13 for 100pts, even if they're cheaper? How can you justifying that being able to take more of the bad thing is somehow an improvement? No. Cheaper fire warriors is out. BS4 fire warriors is an option. Not one i readily agree with. Fair enough it can be done - the tau treat their soldiers with artificial soldier genes, they've got oodles of tech, and hey, its 5th (soon to be 6th) and the power curve means pushing things out. bs4 could work. but i dont think its the right path. IMO - leave them as decent troops, but make them shine with their equipment. Again, the issue with range. why is it an army famed for long to extreme range engagements finds their best performance is within 12"? No. make pulse rifles H2, and carbines A2, or A3. allow commanders to take drone controllers with access to rail rifle, or pulse cannon drones (and by the way, since he controls them, he might as well aim them, so they can use his BS, not theirs). IMO SMS drones and burts cannon drones are terrible. again, they solve no issues. they're simply spamming what fire warriors already do - t3 4+ save models with str5 ap5 firepower. shrug. why would i honestly bother?

Recosting would be a part of it, and only in certain places. you cant dress up a donkey and call it a racehorse. thats what recosting is. its patching over a codex that is extremely old, and extremely out of date with the current ideas. It lacks SCs, it lacks special rules, it lacks an overall power increase. it has too many bad units and pointless choices and too many options that make absolutely no sense. No, more than a recosting, it needs a fundamental restructure.

Kroot adaptations is about the only thing i agree with. buy a shaper, get your adaptation. FC, fleet, t4, stealth, etc. Not sold on 5+ armour saves. kroot are light infantry skirmishers - they've never been about flak armour. also, i think our kroot should have mount options (kroot raptor cavalry, anyone) and the option to replace kroot rifles with kroot hunting rifles. And since we're running with a themew of light infantry skirmishers, i will demand a Kroot Sharpe as an SC. and no, that is not a mispelling of Shaper. i mean a Kroot Sharpe.

Something simple that's probably been overlooked for a reason - giving Fire Warriors a 15" Rapid Fire. Now the enemy needs fleet to assault them if they shoot at full capacity. Fully agree with giving them options. Not necessarily just drones, some different guns too. Burst cannons would go well with a half range rapid fire. The plasma rifle would be nice on FW too.

Crisis suits need more weapon options. At the moment all they really have is plasma rifles and missile pods that stand out, and that is pathetic for a shooty army. Maybe make burst cannons 36", S5, AP4, Assault 3? Missile pods are essentially autocannons with less range, which is surprisingly good (on paper at least). Plasma rifle goes 36" and Heavy 2. Also give them something with really long range.

Tau seem to have a lot of potential. No need to create new units, just alter the stuff they have already got.

And add some damn SCs!

1. Point reduction: not alot but some (10%?)
2. A rework of units in the FOC
3. A general weapon upgrade: Higher Str, more shots , and if pinning is not reworked to not be imposible they should add rending.
4. Stealthfield generaters on vehicles
5. A increase in kroot and vespid melee ability.

Painbiro wrote:Something simple that's probably been overlooked for a reason - giving Fire Warriors a 15" Rapid Fire. Now the enemy needs fleet to assault them if they shoot at full capacity. Fully agree with giving them options. Not necessarily just drones, some different guns too. Burst cannons would go well with a half range rapid fire. The plasma rifle would be nice on FW too.

Crisis suits need more weapon options. At the moment all they really have is plasma rifles and missile pods that stand out, and that is pathetic for a shooty army. Maybe make burst cannons 36", S5, AP4, Assault 3? Missile pods are essentially autocannons with less range, which is surprisingly good (on paper at least). Plasma rifle goes 36" and Heavy 2. Also give them something with really long range.

Tau seem to have a lot of potential. No need to create new units, just alter the stuff they have already got.

And add some damn SCs!

I dont see how a 15" rapid fire would help them. assaulting isnt the only way to take on fire warriors. if they're shooting marines at 15, they're getting maybe 3 doods. less if they've got FNP. assuming the marines are not in a transport. where the extra 3" rapid fire range will do nothing. what happens when said marines move within 12 and rapid fire? half the squad melts. what happens when there are assault troops, or long range heavy bolter spamming infantry? changing a core rule that exists for every other unit in the game is a very sloppy and illdisciplined attitude to take. see my above post. tau fire warriors should not be about short range engagements. read IAV3. what they tend to do is set up an extreme range perimeter, and engage that way, gradually wearing the enemy down, and then redeploying as necessary. tau should be about engaging ideally at 30, or even 36" ranges, not 12 or 15. it should be an ordeal getting to them to engage them, not necessary on our part to get close to the other guy to get our shots off. leave the close quarter work to the kroot.

burst cannons on fire warriors though? No. terrible idea. it gives them nothing other than another short ranged s5 ap5 gun with extremely low bs. i've got str5 ap5 leaking out of my ears when it comes to tau! i dont need more of it! Nor do i need special weapons. no special weapons in the hands of fire warriors has been a hallmark of the fire warriors since day 1. it should stay that way. By all means, allow the commander to have a drone controller with rail rifle drones and pulse plaster drones (again, there is a precedent with "sniper" drone teams.) Just integrade those drones directly into FW squads. Full squad, the shas'ui gets a drone controller with 2 drones for free. (hey, if marines get a free missile launcher...) boom. sorted.

again, wrong idea with the crisis suits. i still have to choose. do sternguard have to choose which type of ammo to take to the game? no, they come equipped with all of it. do obliterators have to pay extra to morph extra guns? No, they get them all. Look at Forgeworlds Shas'o Raili, or however you spend him. he's got a gun with an EMP round, and 2 or 3 other ammo types. he can pick which ever one he wants per turn. thats what you need. give all crisis suits an omnigun - its an energy weapon with variable power settings. 1 shot type is a h.flamer, another is an assault 2 plasma, another is an EMP round, another is a burst cannon with longer range and more shots. beyond that, allow suits to have secondary weapons (twin bursts, SMSs, drone controllers - wth gun (free), shield (free) rail rifle, markerlight, and pulse blaster options) like vehicles, and upgrade with tech (MTs, TLs, TSs etc) as required. allow a team leader of a full squad to replace his omnigun and secondary weappons with an even bigger gun. Broken? yup, just like all the recent codices. Im sorry, but our codex is terrible. using the same, tired failed template is a recipe for disaster. look at the power curve of the recent codices. thats what you should be aiming for. We're not faster than other armies. we dont outnumber them. we cant cc our way out of a paper bag. the game is quicker than its ever been, so engaging threats with range, outflanking, infiltrating, cc, fast troops, vehicles etc is fully possible. asking for overwhelming firepower, in an army famed for it, and especially for our signature unit- perfectly within reason. I saw an assault terminator deathstar cleave through 800pts of chaos in 2 turns. it was fun. i want some of that.

I do feel that FW units are a sort of crude 'beta' for rules development.

Being able to take anti-tank/moar dakka drones for FW squads would be good (rail rifle, (now with rending) heavy burst cannon (24" s7,AP4 Hvy2?) would be a start. Suits with better options. I do wonder if they will make it so that you can do an elite all suit army.

As much as I love them in the Exiled Cadres codex, isn't heavy weapons with FW against Tau doctrine?

And I agree that cheaper units isn't a good solution- they're high-tec mid-cost hunters, not xeno-guard.

Better weapons is the key- I would say BS 4 but at least when they first came out their BS 3 was/is justified by them being a very tactical army designed with good use of markerlights etc, rather than being Dark Angles; however, there comes a point when "ooh they're not supposed to be easy to win with, being tactical'n'all....." just doesn't cut it, especially with the recent stronger codexes.

Apart from things like the Railgun's submunition (which is the least we deserve considering the HEAT rounds of the Battle Cannon), I don't like omniweapons as part of the fun in building lists is chosing what to take.

The way the Tau work is different to all the other armies. Almost every other army adds in relatively cheap heavy firepower into their standard infantry squads. The Tau can't do this, so have to rely on the suits. Now thats not necessarily bad, but as noted crisis suits can be a tad fragile. Perhaps one way around it would be to cost seeker missiles better (or make them free). The markerlight is a heavy weapon, but unlike the squad heavy weapon in other armies you need to pay for the ammo it fires making it rather pricey to use. If you just pay the base cost then you actually lose firepower as the guy assists another squad in shooting. Does the benefit outweight the cost? I never really thought so.

So my suggestions would be
- give Crisis suits immunity to instant death and maybe cheaper shield drones
- Cheaper/more varied seeker missile warheads

The vehicles are ok I think and the Kroot are about right.

Painbiro wrote:
And add some damn SCs!

Exactly! Our only great etherial got taken away and our only great Battlesuit character brings alot of penalties to the wider army with little in return (as if being defeated by the very race who he specialises against isn't bad enough).

The wider army rules for Farsight are odd. It's not like the Ork SCs where you get nice bonuses like a Deaffdread in Troops or all Troops having access to bikes- Farsight plays like a kind of SM/IG 'doctrine' except that you can't play that doctrine under 1500 points as it's tied to the character rather than the army, which means that in under 1500pt games you've got to use the Empire rules for your Farsight army.

I have a pretty small list

Up kroot leadership
Make marker lights assault weapons
Make crisis suits 2+
Give elite fire warriors BS 4
Make FA units worth using

Make glancing work like 4th edition, that worked for tau than.

This has been something we've discussed alot in our group. Here are some thoughts, organized by type of change. I have only addressed point costs once, since that becomes pretty contentious and very hard to get right without alot more time than I have,

Force Org Changes
---------------------------
Gun Drones --> Troops (without limitless man, er, taupower why would you not rely more on drones?)
Pathfinders --> Troops (as long as markerlights are HW, please don't call my pathfinders "fast" anything)
Stealth Suits --> Fast Attack (these are the actual scouts and guerrilla fighters in the Tau army)
Tetras --> Officially move into codex as Fast Attack

Just making these force org changes helps us use units that are otherwise hard to fit into an army, but that can be tremendously useful.

Unit Changes
-------------------
Skyrays ---> Markerlights become Tetra-style "high-intensity" markerlights
Skyrays ---> (if you don't like the drones = troops suggestion above, here's an alternative) as the Tau C&C vehicle, allow skyrays to permit up to two drone units to be taken as troops... add Heavy Drones to the codex, gives people a way to take sniper drones
Firewarriors ---> Give firewarriors some sort of high-tech gnoblar trapper option (e.g. "proximity mines"?) to make our beloved, completely static shooty troops at least not a completely free kill in cc
Sniper Drones ---> Get rid of the foot-bound Tau spotter and give them a "C&C Drone" or "Sensor Drone" so that the Sniper Drones can actually benefit from having relentless
Xv8s ---> These guys are our elite... please give them BS4... please
Xv8s ---> Give them the option to take rail rifles
Vespids ---> I just really don't know...
Stealth Suits ---> Some more weapon options... rail rifles? equip the whole squad with fusion blasters? (ala IG vet squads, etc...)

I think that most of these changes would be pretty conservative, and help out our some of our less useful units while making our elites actually, um, elite-ish.


Army-Wide Changes
----------------------------
Cheaper Markerlights available to more units
Broader selection of non-squad-integrated heavy weapons, summon-able via markerlight
Cheaper vehicles... all of the vehicles minus the tetra could do with a 10pt price reduction

[edited to fix silly mistake]

I'd sprinkle more extreme ranges in the codex. Throw in some more 60" ranges for the bigger stuff, add in some suit weapons that are 48" and maybe make infantry weapons that are 36." Also, add some meaner guns for suits. I like the omni-weapon ideas, but maybe start off with a large-ish list of weapons, like say 10 or 12, and let you choose three. Then let you fire multiple weapons in one round, at multiple targets. Maybe open up the smart missile things that broadsides have for other suits.

Perhaps some sort of universal shooting rule, like a Waaagh! but shooting-based. And you could give pulse weapons some sort of special rule like Gauss. Like a sort of electronic shut-down or something that could stop other squads from shooting if X amount of shots hit/wounded.

They can shoot photon grenades out of their guns, so why not EMP grenades? FW has the right idea adding EMP guns, like the dark eldar.
I want seeker missiles that have the option of frag or krak. That would make Sky-rays actually worth it.
Make markerlights a little cheaper on Shas'ui, maybe 5pts instead of 10, and/or allow markerlights to give a short range boost like 6" (not-stackable).
Give Kroot an SC, an option for assault guns like FW, or wargear/adaptations.
More weapon options on hammerheads, crisis suits, broadsides...

However, the most important thing is this: A new codex!

TermiesInARaider wrote:Let us be clear; I LOVE the Tau. I find their entire feel and fluff to be rather refreshing compared to the neverending grim dark, and as an army, I find thei unit designs exciting.

But they SUCK. My question entails this; what does the Tau codex require in order to be competative again?

I can't pretend I know enough of the game's intricacies, but I can clearly see that Fire Warriors are horribly done. They're very squishy, as designed, but their cost is too high, and the shooting strength that they SHOULD be known for is extremely underwhelming.

In the Grim Darkness of the future, if you are not too keen on the Darkness and Grimness, Play as the Tau.

As a meme, it will probably have not worked.

EDIT - Markerlights + Smart Missiles or Rail Guns = Bum rape,

My ideal firewarrior unit.

Firewarrior squad 6 - 12 members 10 points each.

WS2 BS3 S3 T3 A1 W1 Ld8 Sv 4+

Firewarriors are armed with either pulse carbines or pulse rifles.
Pulse Rifles - S5 AP5 30" heavy 2 or 15" assault 2
Pulse Carbine - S5 AP5 18" assault 2 distortion

*Distortion - a model hit by a distortion round moves as if in difficult terrain during their next turn.

Wargear
Reactive personal armor - allows reroll of any failed armor tests.
Defensive Grenades

One Firewarrior may be upgraded to a Shas'ui for 10 points
(Upgrades LD to 9 and unit may choose to reroll any failed LD or moral checks)
A Shas'ui may purchase any of the following.
Networked Markerlight 10 pts - 36" (markerlights are wargear used in place of shooting. Designate a target in range and it is considered marked.)
Bonding Knife 5 points - same as before
A Shas'ui may purchase up to two drones
Shield Field Drone 10pts - A unit that contains a shield field drone always has a 4+ cover save.
Networked Optical Drone - 5 points - A unit that contains an optical drone is treated as having Darksun filters
Networked Markerlight Drone - 10 points -

So for 150 points you get a stand-a-lone unit that gets an effective 3+ armor save against AP5 or worse guns. 4+ cover save vs everything else. LD 9 with reroll. Two marker lights that can either bring down seekers (that dont have to roll to hit twice crap), make the unit BS5, remove some cover, or whatever. Throw in a few carbines and you make other units slow down on their march to reach you, and can hold up just a bit better in HTH due to reroll, better armor, and defensive grenades.

Now that sounds like an elite type shooty army that still feels xenos and not just a marine knock off.

Tau need to be the most powerful small amount of shooting in the game.

This is going to be hard.

Why?

Because !@#$ing everyone else seems to have railguns and fancy shooting.

Nercons have railgun lines
Tyranids have lance railguns

And markerlights?

Nercons have markerlights, those damn stalkers twin link everything.

I won't even continue. All I'm going to say is the next tau codex is either going to be a massively different than the current one, or simple be crap.

About a 20-30% point decrease across the board, with an additional 2-4 members per squad would do it IMO.

And BS4 for anything in a robot.. If you take an Ethereal, you can already get a squad of BS4 veteran Fire Warriors. Since everything in the Tau army within a giant robot is a vet of some sort, it doesn't make sense that Shas'las that just want to follow Aun'Imabigtarget and not rise through the ranks can shoot better than a Shas'ui(Which is considered a Veteran of the Fire Caste), Incased in a giant robot.

Let me address it by comparing 6 Long Fangs with heavy bolters versus 12 Firewarriors with a leader with knife and markerlight.

Cost: 115 vs 145

Shooting: 15 S5 AP4 shots at BS 4 (10 hits) versus
12 S5 AP5 shots at BS 3 (6 hits

Range: 36" versus 30"

Defense: 6 T4 AC3 versus 12 T3 AC4
18 bolter wounds to kill versus 24 bolter wounds to kill

HTH: 7 S4 WS 5 with counterattack (usually 14 attacks)
versus
12 S3 WS 3 attacks (can take defensive grenades)


In all cases the long fangs are better except defensive. The only other good thing is that the firewarriors are troop choices. This is just not good.

EDITED - Still comparing a Heavy Unit with a Troop choice isn't exactly fair is it? Neither is comparing one of the Uber codexes with one of the less well thought of ones.

I wouldn't call Tau poorly thought out, they were frakkin awsome in 4th.

They just aged like cheap pizza.

From many videos I have seen, some tau are very agile, able to swing themselves on top of terminators and sick a knife in the back of there heads. They should have a special squad for tau like this, perhaps WS4 and rending?

Ahhhhh, the sarcasim is blinding

sullaz wrote:This has been something we've discussed alot in our group. Here are some thoughts, organized by type of change. I have only addressed point costs once, since that becomes pretty contentious and very hard to get right without alot more time than I have,

Force Org Changes
---------------------------
Gun Drones --> Troops (without limitless man, er, taupower why would you not rely more on drones?)
Pathfinders --> Troops (as long as markerlights are HW, please don't call my pathfinders "fast" anything)
Stealth Suits --> Fast Attack (these are the actual scouts and guerrilla fighters in the Tau army)
Tetras --> Officially move into codex as Fast Attack

Just making these force org changes helps us use units that are otherwise hard to fit into an army, but that can be tremendously useful.

Unit Changes
-------------------
Skyrays ---> Markerlights become Tetra-style "high-intensity" markerlights
Skyrays ---> (if you don't like the drones = troops suggestion above, here's an alternative) as the Tau C&C vehicle, allow skyrays to permit up to two drone units to be taken as troops... add Heavy Drones to the codex, gives people a way to take sniper drones
Firewarriors ---> Give firewarriors some sort of high-tech gnoblar trapper option (e.g. "proximity mines"?) to make our beloved, completely static shooty troops at least not a completely free kill in cc
Sniper Drones ---> Get rid of the foot-bound Tau spotter and give them a "C&C Drone" or "Sensor Drone" so that the Sniper Drones can actually benefit from having relentless
Xv8s ---> These guys are our elite... please give them BS4... please
Xv8s ---> Give them the option to take rail rifles
Vespids ---> I just really don't know...
Stealth Suits ---> Some more weapon options... rail rifles? equip the whole squad with fusion blasters? (ala IG vet squads, etc...)

I think that most of these changes would be pretty conservative, and help out our some of our less useful units while making our elites actually, um, elite-ish.


Army-Wide Changes
----------------------------
Cheaper Markerlights available to more units
Broader selection of non-squad-integrated heavy weapons, summon-able via markerlight
Cheaper vehicles... all of the vehicles minus the tetra could do with a 10pt price reduction

[edited to fix silly mistake]

Agree with the FOC changes 100%
add free photon grenades to FW and PF and raise to I 3 or 4
I'd move Sniper drone teams to troops as a heavy weapon attachment to FW squads out side of the FOC and act as indep.
Xv8's need BS 4 and being able to take a rail rifles would fit.
Vespids- being fleet , move through cover and high initive they should CC weapons more melee attacks and because they are more quick and agile should get a Invulnerable save in close combat.
I believe this would fix a lot of problems for tau.
Stealthsuits: a bit of a rework on stealth-actually add stealth special rule in addition.
Kroot- give them the +6, grenades, and a random list of mutations you ran role on when you add a shaper.

Maybe give vespids some poison or something? They look like they could be poisonous to me.

DAaddict wrote:Let me address it by comparing 6 Long Fangs with heavy bolters versus 12 Firewarriors with a leader with knife and markerlight.

Cost: 115 vs 145

Shooting: 15 S5 AP4 shots at BS 4 (10 hits) versus
12 S5 AP5 shots at BS 3 (6 hits

Range: 36" versus 30"

Defense: 6 T4 AC3 versus 12 T3 AC4
18 bolter wounds to kill versus 24 bolter wounds to kill

HTH: 7 S4 WS 5 with counterattack (usually 14 attacks)
versus
12 S3 WS 3 attacks (can take defensive grenades)


In all cases the long fangs are better except defensive. The only other good thing is that the firewarriors are troop choices. This is just not good.

Don't forget drop in firepower as casulties build up. For every lost firewarrior you loose 1 shot. For every lost LF you loose 3. This is just not a good comparison. You should compair LF to sniper drone teams

5 HBs vs 9 sniper drones. The only reason sniper drones suck is because they are slightly over priced and compete for railgun slots. Something a Tau army just cannot do without.