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Sooooooooo,

DE seems to be a huuuuuuge wall i cant get over....

They seem to always outshoot me,...

In CC i always strike last, have a quite hard time to fight against higher weapon skill... Most of the time a need to make a leadership test since i lose combats a lot....

So yes,.. i use Big Mek with KFF to help defend against shooting...
I have a Bosspole on my boyz Nob to reduce chance of fleeing.... ( I field 20 man squads with a PK/BP Nob)
I hug cover a lot to get a save against their pesky shooting...
Loota's do great, but after maybe 2 max 3 turns they are useless or already dead...
Sometimes i reserve burna's and hope they can flame quite a bit after turn 2/3

I usualy play agressive against most races, i transport my boyz into cc real quick.. but against DE... my transports get shot halfway through the map, even with KFF,... then my boyz are out in the open and i lose about 1/3 of each squad before i get in to cc.... then i wipe or flee most of the time...


I'm confident that there are ways to win,... and yes the dice gods havent been kind on me lately,.. but still, i refuse to believe there is nothing i can do!
Mostly i play 1k to 1750k battles...
My opponent has everything there is in the DE army and he has it plenty.... He usualy deploys all his transports with his ''heavy'' vehicles up front...


So after doing dome searching on the forums i decided to make a topic to gather info i might have overlooked...

Please help this pesky grot

You can't outrun Dark Eldar with any army, you can't outshoot them with Orks. All that's left is outfighting them: build gigantic mobs (thirty-man squads are to be expected), hide behind cover and possibly some light vehicles, and force the Dark Eldar to come to you; then hand them their pansy asses in close combat where you outnumber them two or three to one.

One possibility- Table denial.


If you run a green tide/trukkspam list it's entirely possible to get the DE backed into a few tiny areas of space, unable to move out without turboing, which means they don't get to shoot you

Heavy terrain tables help a lot with this

DE vehicles also break easy. A full unot of tankbustas (even walking) can cause an obscene amount of damage..

Tankbustas nuffin', you can wreck those things with shootas. As a DE player, I would recommend some 30 strong shoota mobs to blow them out of the sky. However, if your opponent is using nightshields, this will make it hard to get a good rounds shooting in.

DE hit hard and fast, but if you can deny them easy unit kills, it's easier to grind them into a paste under waves of boys.

Honestly there are some bad matchups. This is one of them. You can outshoot DE but not a venomspam list where the cannons eat through your armor. You are doing the right thing with full lootas squads. Don't fear the ravagers but stun or shake a venom then move on. Don't focus on them. Fielding one or two heavy vehicles is not a good plan as even though DL are a bad AT gun in concentrated fire they can be quite good. The new dakka jets scare me to no end with the amount of S 6 shots they put out. Kommandos getting behind also aren't a bad way to go but they HAVE to get stuck in that turn or else they are gone.

Depending on what kind of list you are running, I would field 5 ork squads (or more) of lootas x 3 with 3 maxed out gun crews of kannons. If possible, I would try to get some outflanking deffkopta squads as well. Kommandos with snikrot (would take away a loota squad) would also help squeeze your opponent in.

My initial thought would be a grot screen out front of your mob (4+ cover save vs 5+ KFF cover save). It also forces the DE to waste some shooting on 3 point models. Lootas and kannons are spread out to help dilute DE fire. I would have these about 2/3 of the way back (about 6-12" unless playing spearhead - then further in). This way they can reach out and kill his vehicles. If his vehicles come in to kill your lootas, then they get closer to your boyz.

Mobs and mobs of boys behind the grot screen. Koptas and kommandos coming in from the sides. Basically, don't field anything expensive as it will die quickly. So, just go with volume of boyz and have at it.

A warboss on a bike might help as well to give you some mobility.

Depending on the point level, something like:

Big mek KFF
29 grots w/ 2 runtherders
30 boys w/ PK (rokkits x 3- I know its expensive, but it would give each squad a decent chance to take one vehicle down per turn)
30 boys w/ Pk and rokkits
30 boys w/ Pk and rokkits

Kommandos x 5 with Snikrot
5 x Lootas
5 x Lootas

3 x kannon w/ 5 grots and herder
3 x kannon w/ 5 grots and herder
3 x kannon w/ 5 grots and herder

koptas x 3 (outflanking) w/ TLRL
koptas x 2 (outflanking) w TLRL

Grots out front under KFF cover screen giving cover to mobs at 4+. Hopefully, this ties up some shooting as you force his models to deal with 3 point grots.
Boyz behind the grots.
Lootas and kannons dispersed throughout your boys (gettting cover from the boyz and KFF).
Koptas outflanking
Kommandos coming in from the rear.

Concept here is to limit his movement area. He is fast, so you close in from all sides. You have no real large point models, so his ravagers and lances are somewhat negated. He is going to have a ton of shooting, so you want to close with him as quickly as possible. Your outflanking and kommandos are pushing in from the sides while your boyz come at him head long. If he shoots your boyz, your lootas and kannons survive. If he shoots your lootas and kannons, he is not killing boyz and he is also getting closer to your boyz.

Most will disagree with rokkits in your squads. However 1 out of 3 should hit and you have 3 per squad. You pen 2/3 of the time, glance 5/6 of the time. So, that should damage 3 vehicles per turn. Deffkoptas with rokkits should do the same. Snikrot and kommandos as well. I might even give them rokkits as well, just for this list. Again, the intent here is to get as much S7 and S8 shots on the board that can be protected for as long as possible.


I would try that out and see how it does.

Lootas all the way I'd say.

2 Squads of 10 is not unrealistic to field, and their multitude (hopefully) of S7 Shots, should be able to take out most of their vehicles. They'll pen most vehicles on a 5, see.

I'm not that familiar with DE though, so they might have some tougher vehicles. And I know flickerfields can be a pain...

DE top out at AV 11 (ravager, voidraven) and only the Razorwing and Voidraven aren't open topped.

(unless you count Vects pimpmobile which is Av 13...)

Flickerfields are a pain, but nothing on holofields IMO

You can go one of two ways. Green tide can do well. Lots of Shoota boys with big shootas. I dont like the idea of koptas, gives something for the DL to overkill.

THe other way would be to go with a kan wall and a bunch of trukks.


Stunn transports and gunboats.

I'd just shoot them to death and use the orks best weapon against them. The big shoota.

x2) Big meks with KKF
x2) x20 shootaboys with big shootas (ride in battlewagons)
x3) Ork trukk boys x12 Big shoota in the mob and on the trukk
x2) x10 lootas
x2) Battlewagons with all the big shootas it can fit.

With something like this his venoms have nothing to shoot at until he pops a vehicle. The big shootas on the trukks can get a 48" threat range, the battle wagons 42"

If your all meched up (lootas in the far backfield and protected by a KFF), take down his ravagers first and ignore the venoms. The blasters in the warrior squads only have 18" range and that will put him much closer than he would typically want to be. Once he is dislodged from from his tranports shoota boys put out more than enough firepower to take care of the warriors/wyches.

Jayden63 wrote:
x2) Battlewagons with all the big shootas it can fit.

DE anti tank is all lance. Fielding battle-wagons is almost a waste since their big selling point is a strong front.

I don't know why the hate on deffkoptas, every time I play against a DE player (my buddies goto tournament list) the koptas are what get the most points on the board.

davou wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
x2) Battlewagons with all the big shootas it can fit.

DE anti tank is all lance. Fielding battle-wagons is almost a waste since their big selling point is a strong front.

I don't know why the hate on deffkoptas, every time I play against a DE player (my buddies goto tournament list) the koptas are what get the most points on the board.

Contrary to common perception, shooting S8 into AV12 with 4+ cover does not automatically destroy the vehicle.

Saying battlewagons are useless against dark eldar because of lances, is like saying that battlewagons are useless against tau because of rail guns.

Jidmah wrote:

davou wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
x2) Battlewagons with all the big shootas it can fit.

DE anti tank is all lance. Fielding battle-wagons is almost a waste since their big selling point is a strong front.

I don't know why the hate on deffkoptas, every time I play against a DE player (my buddies goto tournament list) the koptas are what get the most points on the board.

Contrary to common perception, shooting S8 into AV12 with 4+ cover does not automatically destroy the vehicle.

Saying battlewagons are useless against dark eldar because of lances, is like saying that battlewagons are useless against tau because of rail guns.

Fully agreed. The lance, if it hits, needs a 4+ to affect the vehicle, and a 4+ to bypass the KFF, and ANOTHER 4+ to kill the vehicle (assuming it's a pen). Lances (as well as Heat Lances) is really hindered by that KFF.

I learned to play 40k by playing Tau vs Kanwall/trukkspam orks in 3e. What I needed to do was find out where the hardest hitting units were, and open up anything standing between me and them. I knew it was impossible to stop EVERY trukk before Boys got to my lines, but I could make it so that only Trukkboyz got in, which I could handle. Obviously Tau have an advantage in dealing with KFFs, but my hardest learning experience was figuring out firstly WHICH units had to die, and then WHEN they needed to go. Learning at which point I needed to stop trying to stop that unit and start working on the next. My opponant made this harder by increasing the number of high-threat units on the board and forcing me to make tough calls.

Now that I play DE, my tactics have only changed in two ways. One: I am all mounted and fleet, so I can better avoid unfavorable charges than Tau ever could. Two: DE actually have reliable CC and very good counter assault elements, allowing you to eliminate whatever makes it into CC and still having the resources to fire on farther -yet still dangerous- targets

The one thing that still causes problems for me as a DE player (and any other player) is to have enough list redundancy to force your opponant to have to make bad choices about what to kill first and when, and then have even the best conclusions be the wrong ones. "Yay! I killed the lootahs! Crap, there's another one." "Yay! Dead Nobsquad! Ugh, and another."

Hemming a DE player in is very hard, as a good one is willing to sacrifice a turn of shooting just to outmanuver you and keep you scrambling. At the same time, they will STILL have enough shooting to supress you and cover the escape.

In short, flood your opponant with high threat options and do your best to keep the initiative. If you can keep your agression high, it will force your opponant to react to you, which will cause problems with their ability to properly prioritize.

Hmmm ok,

So it comes to numbers all over again

sounds hard to master but hell! Ill give it a couple of shots I currently am at around 80 boyz,... But most are slugga'z... Got only 25 shooties...
I do however have plenty of big shoota's...

What should i go for when deploying? Cover as much of the map as possible or hould i..... wait... with so many boyz ill probably have trouble fitting everything withing 12'' anyways Nvm

Thank for the tips so far!

40K is all about redundancy and numbers. The easiest way to win is to figure out how to roll more dice and conversely make your opponent roll less.

The big shoota is S5 AP5 assault 3. Against marines that doesn't seem so great as each gun will only hit once, your wounding on 3s and they still get their 3+ save.

But against DE. Your wounding on 2s and for the most part they will get no saves at all. Also since the above Battlewagons have 6 (as listed) thats pretty much 5 dead DE. Which in most cases is the entire crew of a venom. Also as its an assault weapon it allows you to keep mobile and help negate one of the DE strengths as they are highly mobile.

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:What should i go for when deploying? Cover as much of the map as possible or hould i..... wait... with so many boyz ill probably have trouble fitting everything withing 12'' anyways Nvm

Kan Wall premise. Let the KFF give your kanz cover, while your boys stand behind the kanz, getting cover themselves.

Lootas are generally your biggest concern, since you want them in cover as they will be prioritized. Just hope that your deployment has a nice cover area you can drop them into.

Jidmah wrote:

davou wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
x2) Battlewagons with all the big shootas it can fit.

DE anti tank is all lance. Fielding battle-wagons is almost a waste since their big selling point is a strong front.

I don't know why the hate on deffkoptas, every time I play against a DE player (my buddies goto tournament list) the koptas are what get the most points on the board.

Contrary to common perception, shooting S8 into AV12 with 4+ cover does not automatically destroy the vehicle.

Saying battlewagons are useless against dark eldar because of lances, is like saying that battlewagons are useless against tau because of rail guns.

Also, it's not like anyone really shoots at my wagon's front armor... the side arcs are so huge, sometimes I almost forget I even have AV 14. So the lances don't worry me much more than missile launchers.

Jidmah wrote:

Saying battlewagons are useless against dark eldar because of lances, is like saying that battlewagons are useless against tau because of rail guns.

Didn't say useless, I said almost a waste of points. The Battlewaggons big selling point is that its a strong front armor with a deffrolla. Against an army that can get entirely out of the way every turn and has lance weapons everywhere (including on its jetbikes in large numbers) You're tossing allot of the appeal from a BW out the window. Not useless, but it absolutely sucks to be excited about your huge tank and have it crash and burn in turn one and then spend the rest of the game watching a bunch of fast units keep away from you.

He's already using the kff like he ought too; and his problem it seems is that

my transports get shot halfway through the map, even with KFF,... then my boyz are out in the open and i lose about 1/3 of each squad before i get in to cc

Telling him to just use transports when he already is seems like broken advice when for the price of that one battlewaggon he can add another half squad of boyz for the same price.

I've had luck even with grots against DE, meatshield wall puts a turd in the soup for DE.

Kharrak wrote:

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:What should i go for when deploying? Cover as much of the map as possible or hould i..... wait... with so many boyz ill probably have trouble fitting everything withing 12'' anyways Nvm

Kan Wall premise. Let the KFF give your kanz cover, while your boys stand behind the kanz, getting cover themselves.

Lootas are generally your biggest concern, since you want them in cover as they will be prioritized. Just hope that your deployment has a nice cover area you can drop them into.

You can always bring your own cover - a 10 man grots squad will give those lootas cover, and with a bit of luck you can plant the pair on a back objective to score it and never move either.

davou wrote:Didn't say useless, I said almost a waste of points. The Battlewaggons big selling point is that its a strong front armor with a deffrolla. Against an army that can get entirely out of the way every turn and has lance weapons everywhere (including on its jetbikes in large numbers) You're tossing allot of the appeal from a BW out the window. Not useless, but it absolutely sucks to be excited about your huge tank and have it crash and burn in turn one and then spend the rest of the game watching a bunch of fast units keep away from you.

He's already using the kff like he ought too; and his problem it seems is that

my transports get shot halfway through the map, even with KFF,... then my boyz are out in the open and i lose about 1/3 of each squad before i get in to cc

Telling him to just use transports when he already is seems like broken advice when for the price of that one battlewaggon he can add another half squad of boyz for the same price.

I've had luck even with grots against DE, meatshield wall puts a turd in the soup for DE.

I've used my battlewagon as a hardy KFF dispenser that can house Burnas - not much else. I haven't often even gotten the oppertunity to use the Deffrolla. Against DE, it's a massively important aspect. You NEEED that KFF, and Trukks are just too weak to house the KFF mek.

I also am surprised by your claims in regards to grots. They don't have mob rule, so will always be testing at Ld7, and they'd be trounced in CC.

That said, I do note that they are half the price of boyz, and have exactly the same durability against poison fire - which is nothing to snuff at.

BUT, the DE would just need to kill 8 grots within a 29 strong mob for them to test leadership, rather than having to eat away at 20 boyz in a 30 strong mob.

EDIT: Ah, as meatshields - yeah, that would work well with boyz!

RFHolloway wrote:You can always bring your own cover - a 10 man grots squad will give those lootas cover, and with a bit of luck you can plant the pair on a back objective to score it and never move either.

Actually a neat idea - I just happen to have 10 grots.

I'll echo the sentiment of use Lootas.

In my games vs Orks, I've found that Lootas are often the 'man of the match'. Killakans and Trukks are often unpleasant for me to face.

That said, Green Tide seems to just evaporate before all the poison attacks, and my lists doesn't have that much shooting.

But ultimately - bring as much Str6+ shooting / cc as you can, and you should do alright.

Kharrak wrote:
BUT, the DE would just need to kill 8 grots within a 29 strong mob for them to test leadership, rather than having to eat away at 20 boyz in a 30 strong mob.

EDIT: Ah, as meatshields - yeah, that would work well with boyz!

Turn one if DE get to go first they can fire four large blasts at strength six from a singe razorwing with 48'' range. After that happens to my deployment line grots are only icing on the cake if they stick around for any additional turns. Sides, Runtherd gives leadership 7 and you can re-roll to keep that line from fleeing by using the squig hound (not that its super vital to keep them in the game past alpha anyway.

Also, the most important thing to remember about grots is that if they manage to kill eight of them to force that morale check, then you should be happy. That's at least 8 wounds (and a ton of shots that miss/fail to wound) that aren't hitting your boyz.

I would only take 19 though, not 29.

davou wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Saying battlewagons are useless against dark eldar because of lances, is like saying that battlewagons are useless against tau because of rail guns.

Didn't say useless, I said almost a waste of points.

So, how is that a difference? 40k doesn't have real useless units, even Flash Gits do something.

The Battlewaggons big selling point is that its a strong front armor with a deffrolla.

The point of battlewagons is mounting a massive turn two assault. Dark eldar can't be deff rollad, so that's a downside. Battlewagons would still be used with front armor 12.

Against an army that can get entirely out of the way every turn and has lance weapons everywhere (including on its jetbikes in large numbers) You're tossing allot of the appeal from a BW out the window.

So, how exactly is the lance special rule on a fast skimmer relevant? All it does is provide the DE player with the luxury of not having to move around to ignore the front armor. At least my eldar opponents never struggle with shooting their EML into my sides.

Not useless, but it absolutely sucks to be excited about your huge tank and have it crash and burn in turn one and then spend the rest of the game watching a bunch of fast units keep away from you.

That's why you bring four of them. And some buggies or planes. And, if you're playing at high point levels, a trukk or two. Dark eldar don't have much but those lances to take down your vehicles, and every battlewagon will be missed by one out of three lances, will not be scratched by half the shots and will make a cover save against every second hit. That's six lances on average, just to get to roll on the damage table. And then one third of the penetrating hits will get an irrelevant result and two thirds of any glances will do nothing. So, at least nine lances per battlewagon, that's 36 for four of them - assuming the dark eldar player doesn't care about buggies or dakka jets shooting his sailboats to bits.

He's already using the kff like he ought too; and his problem it seems is that

my transports get shot halfway through the map, even with KFF,... then my boyz are out in the open and i lose about 1/3 of each squad before i get in to cc

Telling him to just use transports when he already is seems like broken advice when for the price of that one battlewaggon he can add another half squad of boyz for the same price.

You seem to know more than we do. I can't see his list anywhere, so I have no idea what transports or even what army he is using. The solution to your transports getting blown up is not dropping transports. It's preventing your transports from getting blown up.

Honestly DL are not that great at destroying AV 12+. It's one of those secrets that DE players don't like to let other people know. Consider that you have a 1/3 chance of destroying a vehicle with a pen. That needs 3 pens on average to do it. Then you have another 1/3 chance to get a pen on something with at least AV12. Now you have a 2/3 chance to actually hit. So 12 dice. 9 hit with BS 4. Then you have 3 penatrate. (1/3 of 9). Out of those 3 one should be a 5 or 6. Then you have to DOUBLE those numbers to acount for a KFF. Thats 24 shots to take out one BW assuming an 'ard case! Without one 9 shots, 6 hits, 2 pens, and dead on a 4+. Again doubled for a KFF.

Also DE can be deffrolled, we aren't immune we just have a 3+ dodge on the hit and a 5+ against the inevitable damage, but S10 is still nasty business. Being imobilized is a death sentence for DE when a rolla comes around.

As I ply both Orks and DE I get really annoyed when people complain about dark lances. (not that this has anything to do with orks). All marine armies seem to do just fine killing tanks with massed S8 missile launchers, but why do DE S8 dark lances do so poorly? Simple answer is they don't, the math is the same. Put enough DLs into a battlewagon and it will stop. Hell, in most cases even getting an immobilized or stun results works well because they don't have extra armor or the equivalent.

Yes, DL can kill battlewagons, but there is no reason for the ork player to not take them. Only a fool expects to win a game and not take any casulties of their own. Thats why redundency is such an in your face aspect of 40K and winning armies. You take 2 maybe 3.

I'm not complaining about them. I'm making a point, that they aren't as good as a lascannon or melta gun, which my marines have much better luck at destroying armor. Plus having a little bit of armor helps a bunch. Suiciding 3 squads of blasterborn for little in return for the venoms to do is a big waste. As a DE player I never expect a shut out, but tossing away 400ish points out of an 1850 army had better do some serious damage.

With that said I do still agree with Jayden that just because a DL CAN kill a wagon doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken.

Akroma06 wrote:With that said I do still agree with Jayden that just because a DL CAN kill a wagon doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken.

My argument isn't that it shouldn't be taken because it will be killed, its that its not an optimal choice because DE strengths negate two of the BW's large selling points.

Deffrolla is unlikely against such a fast army, and the heavy front armor is reduce to counting as 12 against those lances. That means it ends up being just a transport with 20 capacity. Sure the KFF makes it more survivable, but it only gives infantry a 5+ save if the battlewagon is removed. Adding more boys however gives everything behind them a 3+ and wont explode and risk taking a huge chunk of a mob with it in the process.

I've had more luck with adding ablative wounds than I have had fielding a wall of armor (especially if you dont get turn one)

davou wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:With that said I do still agree with Jayden that just because a DL CAN kill a wagon doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken.

My argument isn't that it shouldn't be taken because it will be killed, its that its not an optimal choice because DE strengths negate two of the BW's large selling points.

Deffrolla is unlikely against such a fast army, and the heavy front armor is reduce to counting as 12 against those lances. That means it ends up being just a transport with 20 capacity. Sure the KFF makes it more survivable, but it only gives infantry a 5+ save if the battlewagon is removed. Adding more boys however gives everything behind them a 3+ and wont explode and risk taking a huge chunk of a mob with it in the process.

I've had more luck with adding ablative wounds than I have had fielding a wall of armor (especially if you dont get turn one)

Woah, hold on there.

A transport that is 12/12/12 is worlds apart from a transport that is 10/10/10. The KFF grants the exact same bonuses within or without the BW, but with the added bonus of an increased KFF radius, and a secure bunker to hide the mek in. Hell, you can remove the Open topped quality from it if you don't plan on having anything inside of it shoot / assault out. You've actually got a hardier vehicle than a Landraider in this instance due to the KFF.

The KFF is an infuriating piece of wargear in a ork mekanized army for DE to contend with.

Adding more boys however gives everything behind them a 3+ and wont explode and risk taking a huge chunk of a mob with it in the process.

...no idea what you mean by this. How would they ever get a 3+ save past going to ground? Trukks in general are much more lethal than BW's, since they are much more likely to explode even if just wrecked. Remember that units would still get their save against the explosion - even those inside the vehicle.

davou wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:With that said I do still agree with Jayden that just because a DL CAN kill a wagon doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken.

My argument isn't that it shouldn't be taken because it will be killed, its that its not an optimal choice because DE strengths negate two of the BW's large selling points.

Deffrolla is unlikely against such a fast army, and the heavy front armor is reduce to counting as 12 against those lances. That means it ends up being just a transport with 20 capacity. Sure the KFF makes it more survivable, but it only gives infantry a 5+ save if the battlewagon is removed. Adding more boys however gives everything behind them a 3+ and wont explode and risk taking a huge chunk of a mob with it in the process.

I've had more luck with adding ablative wounds than I have had fielding a wall of armor (especially if you dont get turn one)

There is no way to gain a 3+ cover save from boyz. You also seem to be under the impression that a 5+ cover save on a 6 point model is bad or something.

You really need to stop thinking like a space marine if you're playing orks.

@Akroma: 'ard case is a downgrade as it is now. You can pretty much count on all battlewagons being open topped.

@Jayden: Battlewagons can and should always get armor plates, which negate stunned.