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Is there any info on the 2 legions deleted from imperial records? What could they have possibly done (worse than the traitor legions) to be deleted from history ? Where they just genetic failures from the get go and this never put into use? Do they exist on the list for those of us wanting to write thier own fluff? Or could they exist on secret to reappear at a time of great need in future unwritten fluff?

In all the backstory (codicies and BL books) is there any mention of them at all?

as far as I am aware there has never been anything published.

I believe they were named by some Horus Heresy books. But only as the purged and the forgotten or something like that. There are some records out there that suggests the Spacewolves destroyed one of the legions.

EDIT: and also try here http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Primarchs

Check the Background forum, there's a thread a week on this topic.

pretre is correct, lol.

The short answer is this: No.

The medium length explanation is this: They don't exist. Like at all. In real life, not just the fluff. They've never existed, and the fluff behind them is that they were purged and nobody talks about them. It's been more or less confirmed in off-hand statements by a couple BL authors that they'll never be mentioned either. That's part of their mystique.

Some of the only concrete fluff that we have on them is:

They were purged long before the Heresy, and probably near the beginning of the Great Crusade. Corax, primarch of the Raven Guard says that he never met them, so they were destroyed long before all the primarchs were found.

Some of the Word Bearers suggest that the Ultramarines may have absorbed them, but if I recall the thread on another forum correctly, the author of that novel even admitted that it's all guessing by a bunch of Word Bearers officers who don't know, and likely had an axe to grind with the Ultramarines.

I guess somebody will need to do an analysis of what order the primarchs were found (if such a concrete list exists) and could at that point figure out roughly when they were destroyed/purged/etc. Not really a project I'm interested in pursuing right now. I'm going to guess that the answer still won't be clear because there will be conflicting info due to a lack of cohesive editing vision on the topic.

Back in the very early days of 40k, there was some fluff on them. But, this was back before the entire chapter/legion thing was clear, and before Primarchs existed.

So, in terms of modern cannon, there is nothing known about them at all.

My personal favorite fan theory: These 2 Primarchs were found. But, they had already fallen to a concept even more dangerous to the Imperium than Chaos. One grew up on a world that instilled the principle of democracy. And one grew up on a world that instilled the principle of freedom. When the Emperor found them, he realized that if these ideas ever spread, his power would crumble, so he destroyed them entirely.

Aren't there democracies in the Imperium? It doesn't really matter what your government type is on most worlds as long as you don't forget to send your tithes.

Nope.

From my reading of the HH series, the 2 "missing legions" are hinted at, but nothing more. The Primarchs always refer to legions with sadness/ dismay ect. It is mentioned in 1 book the Emperor would unleash the Sons Of Russ on Magnus if he failed to obey his father, Like he had done to the unmentioned legion in the past. It is also hinted at by WBs that the ultramarines and sons of horus had "absorbed" some of these legions, as their numbers were far greater than other legions. Not sure im explaining it well, it's been a while since i read them.

From a non-fluff point of view, it has been suggested the 2 missing legions (potentially 1 loyalist and 1 traitor) are there simply to allow players the option of creating their own "first founding" space marine chapter.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Nope.

Pretty sure if you're responding to me, you are incorrect.

Sorry, no I was responding to the OP.

My bad...

As for the order in which they were found, I will task myself with flnding out.

All I know for concrete is that Horus came 1st, which is why he had such a close bond with his Father (more Father-Son bonding) and Alpharius Omegon came last.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Is there any info on the 2 legions deleted from imperial records? What could they have possibly done (worse than the traitor legions) to be deleted from history ? Where they just genetic failures from the get go and this never put into use? Do they exist on the list for those of us wanting to write thier own fluff? Or could they exist on secret to reappear at a time of great need in future unwritten fluff?

In all the backstory (codicies and BL books) is there any mention of them at all?

I have long wondered the same thing since all of the traitor legions turned against the emperor and attempted to completely destroy the Imperium and are still listed. It is really crazy. Were they legions of baby rapers or something like that? Did they breed with Xenos races and just really upset folks? I don't get it either. In fact I started a thread like this many moons ago with almost exactly the same wording.

Skriker

pretre wrote:Aren't there democracies in the Imperium? It doesn't really matter what your government type is on most worlds as long as you don't forget to send your tithes.

The Imperium is a sort of fundamentalist-dictatorship. Sure, some of the world may hold elections for their local government. But, as long as that answers to the IoM, it's not really a democracy. A democracy needs elections (either representatives or direct) across ALL levels of government.

Czarist Russia's peasant villages often times had elected leaders that divided up the communal property. That doesn't make them a democracy.

Right, but the concept of democracy exists on Imperial worlds and is used, even if it isn't 'true' democracy.

The Emperor wasn't going to worry about such ideas.

There is this...

Skriker wrote:

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Is there any info on the 2 legions deleted from imperial records? What could they have possibly done (worse than the traitor legions) to be deleted from history ? Where they just genetic failures from the get go and this never put into use? Do they exist on the list for those of us wanting to write thier own fluff? Or could they exist on secret to reappear at a time of great need in future unwritten fluff?

In all the backstory (codicies and BL books) is there any mention of them at all?

I have long wondered the same thing since all of the traitor legions turned against the emperor and attempted to completely destroy the Imperium and are still listed. It is really crazy. Were they legions of baby rapers or something like that? Did they breed with Xenos races and just really upset folks? I don't get it either. In fact I started a thread like this many moons ago with almost exactly the same wording.

Skriker

This is actually pretty easily explained.

Whatever the missing legions did, was able to be expunged from the records and small enough in scale to be deleted and a gag order issued.


Horus and the traitor legions raped half the galaxy, lol. Kinda hard to cover that up and pretend it never happened.

King Pariah wrote:There is this...

Hilarious!

I am sure the absence is to make room for player created fluff, but the lack of details has always made me wonder.

Here is my reason:

One of them was the first o switch to Chaos. He is the Purged. His brother the other missing Primarch found this out and killed him. He is the Lost. He was so shocked about what happened he fled into space to be never found. To prevent the spread of Chaos they hid this news from everyone.

Either that or they turned out to be girls.

There really is no answer; don't expect one.

In an interview Rick Priestley suggested that his approximate idea was that the two legions initially sided with Horus, only to later return to the Emperor, earning the "reward" of having their treachery obliterated from history. The published statement in Codex: Ultramarines that it was believed they fought for Horus at the beginning of the Heresy would fit that, but the Heresy novels have obviously since retconned it into impossibility.

Prior to that, in the original Space Marine game (which introduced the Horus Heresy to the WH40k universe) there were three "lost" legions whose names were struck from the records after they were wiped out at Istvaan V. The Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands (the latter two of whom hadn't even been named in the fluff at that point) replaced them in subsequent redactions of the fluff. Of course, when this was written, there were no primarchs (Horus was just a general), and it was never stated that there were only twenty legions.

The truth is

2nd Legion were Jewish and 11th were Muslims

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Horus and the traitor legions raped half the galaxy, lol. Kinda hard to cover that up and pretend it never happened.

10000 years on, in an empire where to the majority of citizens Space Marines are little more than a legend and information from off-world is tightly controlled, covering up the Heresy wouldn't be difficult at all. The problem is simply that the Traitor Legions are still running around, and so their continued existence is a little harder to conceal.


Which is the one and only clue to the Deleted Legions, IMO. Whatever happened to them, or whatever they did, for them to be purged completely from Imperial records suggests that they were completely eliminated, with no chance of them ever popping back up again and raising difficult questions.

What I find more interesting than anything is that whatever the missing Primarchs did to deserve censure was so bad and horrible that the traitor Primarchs still wouldn't talk about it.

There was no reason why the traitor Primarchs should honour any vows made to the Emperor, unless the reasons for the censure transcended even their "disagreement" with the Emperor.

Steelmage99 wrote:What I find more interesting than anything is that whatever the missing Primarchs did to deserve censure was so bad and horrible that the traitor Primarchs still wouldn't talk about it.

Who says they don't? Who are they going to tell?

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

King Pariah wrote:There is this...

Hilarious!

I am sure the absence is to make room for player created fluff, but the lack of details has always made me wonder.

Not just hillarious... true story

insaniak wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Horus and the traitor legions raped half the galaxy, lol. Kinda hard to cover that up and pretend it never happened.

10000 years on, in an empire where to the majority of citizens Space Marines are little more than a legend and information from off-world is tightly controlled, covering up the Heresy wouldn't be difficult at all. The problem is simply that the Traitor Legions are still running around, and so their continued existence is a little harder to conceal.


Which is the one and only clue to the Deleted Legions, IMO. Whatever happened to them, or whatever they did, for them to be purged completely from Imperial records suggests that they were completely eliminated, with no chance of them ever popping back up again and raising difficult questions.

Well you have to balance this line of thinking out. Most of what we the players know is unknown to the average person in the 40K universe. Most people probably don't have a clue about it, and by design. If you don't know about Chaos it is harder to turn to it. But the Heresy is still going to be common knowledge to enough of the big timers (Space Marines, High Lords, Ecclessiarchy, Inquisition, top level Guard and Navy officers, etc) that the records can't be just "lost". Certainly this is because, like you mention, the remnants of the traitors are still lurking around causing trouble from time to time. But whatever happened to the missing legions was only knowledge a relative few were privvy to, and that all who were privvy had agreed to never talk about it. It's possible that the missing legions still exist in forgotten or forbidden tomes the First Founding chapters possess, but the knowledge is never shared and only known to the most senior members.

There really isn't any hard and fast answer to it, mostly because it takes a bit of acceptance that it's just a narrative hook the game has had for twenty years, and the interpretation has changed from Priestley's original "expunging was a reward" to the modern "they were actually expunged, both physically and administratively.

Well the big E did say to corax when he met him that his 17 other brothers were waiting for him and corax said that how can this be true if he was number 19 and the big E just replied that it was a conversation for another day

After a quick search on Lexicanum, I found two things.

There was once fluff on one of the older Space Marine Chapters called the Valedictors. They were around during the Heresy and even fought some heretics before they were retconned.

Also, one of the primarchs had a power of invisibility. While this sounds stupid, he could have been a psychic blank, the ones that have no presence in the Warp and vice versa.

Hell, one of them could be Sugmar of the WHFB version. He certainly sounded like a primarch and the "psychic blank" theory could explain why no one noticed him.

Maybe Konrad simply stabbed their backsess and Alpharius and Omegon hid the bodies and changed the records.
And the Emprah didn't care because he has the Terrible Father special rule.