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So...all of the viable units (Vendettas, Manticores, and Chimeras) got more expensive. Awesome.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?

Again, what did the change accomplish aside from making the army worse?

Also, I just had an aneurysm.

much like your inability to properly use the forum quote formatting.

6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot.

And yet those 6 dudes delivered to wherever they are going are going to be delivering more hurt than whatever a Chimer is carrying typically, especially if its a Troops unit.

Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.

Sure, ok, the guys with 4's across their entire statline and numerous special rules suck at fighting everything except units that are 1/3rd their cost. Right...

The self-repair rule is also so laughably bad It makes your triplet look extremely flawed off the bat. But then, the Razorback doesn't even have that rule.

Does it not? I admit I could be wrong on that. I haven't seen one on a table in so long I forget.

Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.

Side hatches make it so that it can keep its highest armor facing towards the enemy while disembarking the longest possible distance, something the Chimera can only do by putting its one good armor facing *away* from the enemy.

A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful?

I played a "chimera parking lot" for...quite a number of years, when they were atrocious, when they were amazing, and again when they went back to being lame, over several different editions and several different iterations of Codex: Imperial Guard. I liked the concept of mechanized infantry armies. So if you want to play a mechanized IG army, you're just stupid and brainless?

Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.

So, relying on putting your expensive fire support units up front is what will keep the Chimera viable?


Such armies ceased being effective in 6E, you're apparently the only one that hasn't notice that they've disappeared en-masse from most tables. One won't find mechanized IG lists winning tournaments regularly anymore or even placing spectacularly well (they certainly didn't adepticon). Against a competent opponent playing a competent list, they're already not exactly the scariest army in the universe.

Nerfing them further was unnecessary.

If you really care about night fighting that much (lol),

That thing that comes up every game on turn one 50% of the time and kicks in on turn 5 otherwise? And why should the Chimera now be 71pts for what was 55?

pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal.

And you've missed the point, the army is losing capabilities for no good reason, capabilities that matter far more now than before, and those points add up fast in an army built around quantity. It's one thing in an SM army where you may only be looking at 20/30pts on units that don't form the core of your effectiveness anyway, it's another where its entirely possible that's a triple digit increase on units that *do* do a lot of the lifting.

I pointed out earlier that, for the last mechanized list I ran in an event, this change would drastically increase the cost of the list. 165pts just for the base chimera cost increase and smoke launchers, 176 with searchlights. Going off what we've seen, no major changes to platoon costs, etc, the army has to drop a tank, 10 dudes, a couple guns on other units, and now has open topped hydras, and all it's going to get for that are a couple extra orders.

Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective,

Yes, that 5+ is *extremely* effective

But seriously, it's useful, but if your Leman Russ tanks are trundling forward providing cover for your Chimeras, it means those Chimeras aren't able to make full use of their movement if you need to (as the Leman Russ is Heavy) and you're now putting your biggest, heaviest guns that enemy melta and assault units are going to aim for first right up front.

you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true.

Probably because I thought it was obvious that putting your slow, heavy hitting, long range fire support units up front was typically a bad idea.

Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.

Usually you do the opposite, use the Chimeras to shield the Leman Russ tanks and body-block them to keep assault units and meltas away. Have you never played against a biker or drop pod list?

There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.

How are you so sure of this? Everything we're seeing is largely increases or more of the same, the only indication that anything else is getting cheaper is that Sentinels went down and Vets are going down 10pts but losing their 3rd special weapon (according to Faeit212), so someone playing Mechvets now pays the same price (assuming not paying for smoke or searchlights) for said unit, and it's less effective overall. Infantry platoons appear to remain largely the same.

The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic

What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?

The part where you base everything you're arguing on "it'll be ok, really, everything else will be cheaper!"

Reposting my own comment from Faeit:

1) Take Priest
2) Take 50 man blob
3) Take Azrael
4) Use re-roll invulns hymn
5) Laugh as your 50 Guardsmen with re-rollable 4+ invulnerables steamroll your enemy round by round into dust.

Yea I really like the Vet doctrines, but at +50% cost, it was too much to justify. I think having those cheaper i/e for one less sw slot is fair.

I took out a bunch of vets with forward sentries, getting 3+ cover in ruins is awesome for a fire support unit.

Really, any OP/UP/non-competitive unit is only a points-fix from being balanced.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Reposting my own comment from Faeit:

1) Take Priest
2) Take 50 man blob
3) Take Azrael
4) Use re-roll invulns hymn
5) Laugh as your 50 Guardsmen with re-rollable 4+ invulnerables steamroll your enemy round by round into dust.

Hurray for more ridiculous ally shenanigans.

Exactly what this game needs more of.

Even disregarding ally crap, those priest rules are so awesome. Can't wait to throw one of those in a blob! FRF re-rolling failed wounds? Jeeeezus.

Okay, so PBS can now generate powers from Divination. Ooookay.

Looks like the new IG codex might yet prove to be OP after all.

Rostere wrote:
Okay, so PBS can now generate powers from Divination. Ooookay.

Looks like the new IG codex might yet prove to be OP after all.

this might be the big game-changer, that's going to be very powerful, though to have to rely on a crutch like that is certainly not ideal.

Rostere wrote:
Okay, so PBS can now generate powers from Divination. Ooookay.

Looks like the new IG codex might yet prove to be OP after all.

There's a greater chance of it being DOA than OP.

Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.

I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.

 Blacksails wrote:
Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.

I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.

Exactly.

If divination was enough to make IG overpowered, then they already would be. Inquisitors aren't just an option for IG, they're a better option for IG than a PBS. frankly. A PBS will almost undoubtedly be more expensive than a single 50 point Inquisitor, and you can't hide them in another squad to protect them., nor can you upgrade them with a plethora of other wargear to make them even better at support.

So. PBS's getting divination is a *plus*, but it's not really a game changer.

 Blacksails wrote:
Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.

I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.

Absolutely! Inquisitors are also likely to be far better than the new PBS, but there's only a limited amount of Inquisitors you can take.

Rostere wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.

I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.

Absolutely! Inquisitors are also likely to be far better than the new PBS, but there's only a limited amount of Inquisitors you can take.

Sure, but at less than 1850pts, how many divination sources are you planning on taking? Two Inquisitors is plenty, considering one of them can be Coteaz, for even more bonuses.

As Blaxican put it, PBS are a bonus, not the source of the IG potential OP-ness.

I'm not saying PBS are bad; we still don't have the full rules to judge that accurately, but claiming they'll make the codex workable due to divination ignores the existing options we already have.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:


Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?

Again, what did the change accomplish aside from making the army worse?

It didn't make the army worse in anyway other than cost. Deepstrike with no scatter made one unit in every DW far more effective.

Also, I just had an aneurysm.

much like your inability to properly use the forum quote formatting.

I find people are less likely to deliberately mis-interpret and ignore my key points and factors in context when I directly answer each point.

They still do, evidently, but not so much.

6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot.

And yet those 6 dudes delivered to wherever they are going are going to be delivering more hurt than whatever a Chimer is carrying typically, especially if its a Troops unit.

1) A competent SM player isn't taking Tacticals to begin with
2) The Tacticals have no role or purpose whereas Demo Vets with SW's still can have a role
3) This isn't even that true because double plasma,7 Lasguns and a shotgun (or new 1 point bolter on the Sergeant instead of the shooty) is more effective against MC's and hard infantry. For hilarity, charge weaker MC's with Demo Vets and wipe the floor with them as every man gets a S8 AP1 attack.

Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.

Sure, ok, the guys with 4's across their entire statline and numerous special rules suck at fighting everything except units that are 1/3rd their cost. Right...

This isn't really sufficnet evidence to suggest anything, and ignores context. It is not worth paying for most of those increased stats, Tacticals are terrible in comparison to other basic infantry, and only really excel at bullying units weaker than them. You also completely ignored my point on special weapons.

If a unit does not have a clearly defined role or advantage in taking, it should not be taken, as a rule of thumb. Tacs with one special do not effectively give a unit a role.

Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.

Side hatches make it so that it can keep its highest armor facing towards the enemy while disembarking the longest possible distance, something the Chimera can only do by putting its one good armor facing *away* from the enemy.

Sure, that instance sucks, I'll concede that, but the Razorback can be easily blown apart by the most lackluster AT from the front.

A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful?

I played a "chimera parking lot" for...quite a number of years, when they were atrocious, when they were amazing, and again when they went back to being lame, over several different editions and several different iterations of Codex: Imperial Guard. I liked the concept of mechanized infantry armies. So if you want to play a mechanized IG army, you're just stupid and brainless?

Parking lot, as I see it, implies simple-minded spam with no strategy, and throwing your Chimeras towards the enemy and hoping for the best. Maybe you have a different idea of what the name implies, but as I see it, there are still ways to play mechanised infantry.

Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.

So, relying on putting your expensive fire support units up front is what will keep the Chimera viable?


Such armies ceased being effective in 6E, you're apparently the only one that hasn't notice that they've disappeared en-masse from most tables. One won't find mechanized IG lists winning tournaments regularly anymore or even placing spectacularly well (they certainly didn't adepticon). Against a competent opponent playing a competent list, they're already not exactly the scariest army in the universe.

Nerfing them further was unnecessary.

There's no evidence here suggesting why, just stating that people have given up. With the new Codex changes we'll see if Mech doesn't see a return, especially since Pask MK2 has arrived to make the Leman Russ aspect considerably more effective.

If you really care about night fighting that much (lol),

That thing that comes up every game on turn one 50% of the time and kicks in on turn 5 otherwise? And why should the Chimera now be 71pts for what was 55?

I would never take the smoke launchers on Chimeras because of reasons previously stated in a previous post- basically with Leman Russ escorts and the need to either shoot or flat out as priority there is no need for them 95% of the time. Yeah, losing them ain't great but in the overall scheme of things I can't see much being lost.

pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal.

And you've missed the point, the army is losing capabilities for no good reason


You're right. There may be no good reason. But its pointless looking at why something has happened, we can only look to adapting to changes and understanding what the new status of Mech is. This is my perspective. In my honest opinion I don't think it will be dead.


I pointed out earlier that, for the last mechanized list I ran in an event, this change would drastically increase the cost of the list. 165pts just for the base chimera cost increase and smoke launchers, 176 with searchlights. Going off what we've seen, no major changes to platoon costs, etc, the army has to drop a tank, 10 dudes, a couple guns on other units, and now has open topped hydras, and all it's going to get for that are a couple extra orders.

Adapt your list. Everyone has to do this, why should you be the exception, why should GW cater to you? To accomplish this you wait until the Codex, absorb it all and edit your list as necessary.

Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective,

Yes, that 5+ is *extremely* effective

But seriously, it's useful, but if your Leman Russ tanks are trundling forward providing cover for your Chimeras, it means those Chimeras aren't able to make full use of their movement if you need to (as the Leman Russ is Heavy) and you're now putting your biggest, heaviest guns that enemy melta and assault units are going to aim for first right up front.

1) Its a defensive formation. You do not trundle first thing towards the enemy at full pace. Mech should not be played as a race to get to your enemy, that just leads to very easy and very quick defeats. I learnt this the hard way with Rhino rushes in my SM from experience.
2) Don't trundle towards melta/assault units full stop
3) If you place a Chimera directly behind a Leman Russ, and slap a duplicate of this pair together, or close together, you're getting a 4+, or even a 3+ if taking fire from about 45 degrees in front. Positioning is key and requires skill here, but it is certainly possible.
4) Those units on ground level firing directly ahead at the Chimera cannot even see it and hence cannot fire at it.
5) If speed and continued defensive cover is needed, a tank commander/pask can flat out your LR group for a turn 6+D6 with the new order.

you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true.

Probably because I thought it was obvious that putting your slow, heavy hitting, long range fire support units up front was typically a bad idea.

The tank commander order "Strike and Shroud" mitigates the weakness of the Leman Russes if the situation is potentially dire for a turn, and you're basically having to accept this idea of your tanks taking heavy AT fire anyway whenever you field your Russes.

Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.

Usually you do the opposite, use the Chimeras to shield the Leman Russ tanks and body-block them to keep assault units and meltas away. Have you never played against a biker or drop pod list?

Not with this particular tactic, no, I'll admit. That seems a reasonable idea in such a situation as the Leman Russes gain significance.

There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.

How are you so sure of this? Everything we're seeing is largely increases or more of the same, the only indication that anything else is getting cheaper is that Sentinels went down and Vets are going down 10pts but losing their 3rd special weapon (according to Faeit212), so someone playing Mechvets now pays the same price (assuming not paying for smoke or searchlights) for said unit, and it's less effective overall. Infantry platoons appear to remain largely the same.

Maybe not in terms of points, but I think its a very reasonable assumption that some things will get better and shift the balance in effectiveness.

The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic

What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?

The part where you base everything you're arguing on "it'll be ok, really, everything else will be cheaper!"



You have failed to understand my argument, and concluded your post with a strawman.

Platoon squads : 50 points
/ versus /
Veteran squads : 60 points +1 BS , +1 special weapon, cheap doctrines (10-15 points)


Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?

You can have more bodies in a platoon and can get more orders. That's about it, really.

You can still take ordinary blobs.

Hopefully.

Assuming GW didn't kill the combined squads rules, you could still take a 30-50 blob to sit on an objective, and shoot with three heavy weapons.

Different role than vets. Both viable, just different.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Platoon squads : 50 points
/ versus /
Veteran squads : 60 points +1 BS , +1 special weapon, cheap doctrines (10-15 points)


Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?

Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.

The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me

I don't know if this has been addressed already, but Sentinels, rough riders, and ogryns are all currently missing from the Games Workshop website. Does anyone know if the former two are being reboxed or getting new models, or are they being dropped?

Man if Veterans are gonna cost 60 points and their doctrines are lowered as well I might have to consider just running my Infantry Squads as vets instead.

People would probably look at me weirdly for not running them with 2 special weapons but I don't care, it's basically just a 10 point upgrade for a better ballistics skill and maybe a better armor save if I feel like spending a little more too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kennizard wrote:
I don't know if this has been addressed already, but Sentinels, rough riders, and ogryns are all currently missing from the Games Workshop website. Does anyone know if the former two are being reboxed or getting new models, or are they being dropped?

I would guess that the Sentinel is just being repackaged, I couldn't tell you about Rough Riders though. I think if they were coming out with new models we would have heard or seen something by now.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Platoon squads : 50 points
/ versus /
Veteran squads : 60 points +1 BS , +1 special weapon, cheap doctrines (10-15 points)


Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?

Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.

The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me

Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable).
I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too.
However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.

What would you take :
* Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base
* Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).

Seems there is obvious skew here.

I wonder what Pask will cost. 70 points?

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Platoon squads : 50 points
/ versus /
Veteran squads : 60 points +1 BS , +1 special weapon, cheap doctrines (10-15 points)


Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?

Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.

The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me

Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable).
I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too.
However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.

What would you take :
* Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base
* Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).

Seems there is obvious skew here.

Scions do come with AP3 though.
Of course, it is still S3...

Just out of curiosity, are there any type of infantry squads, (ie: Vets/Penal Legions), that can simply take the pistol/ccw options again?

I miss my Feral Guardsmen

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Platoon squads : 50 points
/ versus /
Veteran squads : 60 points +1 BS , +1 special weapon, cheap doctrines (10-15 points)


Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?

Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.

The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me

Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable).
I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too.
However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.

What would you take :
* Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base
* Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).

Seems there is obvious skew here.

Hahaha, Im using Kasrkin as Veterans too ))
I agree that such low cost makes vets really attractive guys So, we will see rise of plasma/ meltavets IMO. But, for me, I like diversity, so it looks like blob of footsloggers, some plasmavets and deep striking scions for the flavour and because of the new orders. Those for scions seems to me string as hell...even it it means driving Taurox Prime with HQ to the rear, deep strike second unit to the beacon and shoot till all dies...

On the other hand, I think these are positive problems, like "hmmm, vets seems great, maybe I will take more of them on expense of basic footsloggers", definetly better than "heck, vets for 90 and just with one special weapon"

Does anyone know what author we can bemoan for this one?

 UlrikDecado wrote:

I agree that such low cost makes vets really attractive guys So, we will see rise of plasma/ meltavets IMO.

"Rise of"...?

In regards to Platoons I'm really having a hard time believing the Infantry Squads for the Platoons will stay 50 points.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

I agree that such low cost makes vets really attractive guys So, we will see rise of plasma/ meltavets IMO.

"Rise of"...?

In regards to Platoons I'm really having a hard time believing the Infantry Squads for the Platoons will stay 50 points.

Eh, you mean they have already risen? Yeah, my bad, should formulate it better. Using them even more, especially at bandwagonners.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:


Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SM tac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.

Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.

Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents. This just means the role of my Mech Vets has changed slightly.

Rest of the leaks, for those interested:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/from-codex-astra-militarum.html

LOL, Dakkanites have to go else where to get rumors 'cause the last several pages have been rage posts.... Thread was derailed many pages ago....

 krazynadechukr wrote:
rage posts

Could you point out these rage posts? I'm not seeing any.

Maybe you're using that word wrong.

Cute sig.