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 Yonan wrote:
I'm not totally clear what we're arguing about here, is it:

"I find these Lulu's are bad because giving fantasy children guns and having them fight is unpleasant in gaming due to not liking real world children having had to endure similar/the same"?

Yeah it's kinda weird. I don't think playing as Chaos means that I am tacitly endorsing demonic summoning*.


*although I do

Exactly, Ouze / Yonan.

Also agree with Mathieu's statement below. Just because!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sure, and when I charge the adorable little counts-as ratlings with my unit of Bloodletters and the cute widdle 5-year-old Lulu's are literally torn apart in a bloody swathe of H2H and their souls damned to Khorne for all eternity, it's all good, right?

It can't just be me right, but that would be hilarious ; p

Yeah, my friend wants to get them... I'm going to have to forego mission objectives in this case. I'll have to charge them every chance I get.

 Azazelx wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

Anime is from Japan, with.. shall we say, very different cultural standards. Where groping women on a packed train, public urination in an alleyway, and tentacle rape in Manga are all considered somewhat acceptable.

In order. No it's really not, to the point that there are female only cars during rush hour.

It happens. It's happened to a friend of mine, too - who kicked up a stink about it where apparently Japanese women often just live with it rather than making a fuss. If there are (now?) female-only cars, it's clearly a reaction to this.

Just no, where the feth did you get that?.

Just yeah. For reals. It's well known. But Google isn't where I first heard of it...

From the first link on google cheese.

In present day Japan however, public lavatories are available everywhere. There is also a law banning urinating in the streets, so there is probably no one who would do it in the open.

Having spent a fair amount of my time in Tokyo at bars carousing, and walking back to my hotel afterwards, I'm pretty sure I would have noticed the streets running with torrents of urine.

You do realize "happens" and "considered acceptable" are two different things right? Female and female/children only cars have been on and off in Japan since the mid 20th century, and the practice spread again in 2005 with the bulk of major national and city lines offering female only cars at least during rush hour. This is in addition to increased awareness and education about how to prevent getting groped and report perverts, and much more stringent punishments for offenders. All of this implying, no. It's not acceptable.

As far as pop culture norms go, A. not my point, just pointing out some of your points have no bearing on reality, and as little connection to this particular discussion. B. Fiction is fiction regardless of nation of origin* and a crap sack world where kiddies are trained up as assassins can be perfectly relevant to a crapsack world where more kiddies pick up high powered sniper rifles and follow around a just shy of emotionally dead sniper like she's a murderous Captain Kangaroo. It's all exploration of similar themes if handled well. So far RH is not handling the Lulus very well. When the game actually drops, or we see a some actual models and the darts have returned, or they issue some more coherent fluff on each faction we'll see if they actually manage to hit the MANY dark themes they want to get into with TGG (see the IE rebel for more) and whether the Lulus become such an exploration, orrrr just get pushed to the left with a "Well even in our crapsack world no one would hurt a child." which since it's their world is perfectly valid.

*You should see some of the disturbing pornography Americans put out. Or Freyja help us all the Germans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Exactly, Ouze / Yonan.

Also agree with Mathieu's statement below. Just because!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Sure, and when I charge the adorable little counts-as ratlings with my unit of Bloodletters and the cute widdle 5-year-old Lulu's are literally torn apart in a bloody swathe of H2H and their souls damned to Khorne for all eternity, it's all good, right?

It can't just be me right, but that would be hilarious ; p

Yeah, my friend wants to get them... I'm going to have to forego mission objectives in this case. I'll have to charge them every chance I get.

Can't disagree with any of the above. Play with whatever models you want. It's just toy soldiers, and remember toy soldiers are NOT srs bsnz.

 Yonan wrote:
I'm not totally clear what we're arguing about here, is it:

"I find these Lulu's are bad because giving fantasy children guns and having them fight is unpleasant in gaming due to not liking real world children having had to endure similar/the same"?

That seems to be the basic anti-Lulu argument in summation. I find it puzzling too, but didn't want to say anything.

Those who want sucker/dark guns will be able to get the effect pretty easily by adding sticking a pin into the barrels

the pin head will make a decent sucker, and can be made even better with a little green stuff or similar

(I suspect they realised the suckers would never cast properly with a tiny shaft and overhang all the way round)

from a 40K perspective many Guard Regiments have camp followers - wives, girlfriends, hookers, children of all of these. Some of whom may well end up on the front line when things go bad..............

Imperial Glory novel from BL describes this quite explicitly.............

There are many very cool models around on "Alice in wonderland" - with guns/blades theme........also Malifeux have lots of evil children.......

The Lulus look pretty cool to me

Ah yes, the tank commander in his trousers a few sizes too tight doing pelvic thrusts while driving past the widows.

Imperial Glory also ends on a very, very dark note.

Ha!

I hope I don't see certain someones ever popping in on, say, objectification of women in war game miniatures threads, or maybe...evil space nazi ork threads, etc.

 Alpharius wrote:
Ha!

I hope I don't see certain someones ever popping in on, say, objectification of women in war game miniatures threads, or maybe...evil space nazi ork threads, etc.

Young scantily clad female evil space nazi orks with guns?! Sign me up ; p

 BrookM wrote:
Ah yes, the tank commander in his trousers a few sizes too tight doing pelvic thrusts while driving past the widows.

Imperial Glory also ends on a very, very dark note.

Thats what I meant - the end is pretty horrific but likely to be enacted many times across the Imperium as it goes to war................

 Yonan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Ha!

I hope I don't see certain someones ever popping in on, say, objectification of women in war game miniatures threads, or maybe...evil space nazi ork threads, etc.

Young scantily clad female evil space nazi orks with guns?! Sign me up ; p

Ha!

And in case it wasn't clear - I was joking.

 Alpharius wrote:
And in case it wasn't clear - I was joking.

How DARE you, sir! How dare you take the plight of young scantily clad female evil space ork nazis so lightly?! You'll be hearing from my internet lawyer. (though yes I do recall some of those threads haha)

 Alpharius wrote:
The Lulus are a far more controversial unit than any of the Sexy Future Women Soldiers, by far.

And I find it difficult how people can be weirdly selective in their outrage.

I'm not sensing a ton of outrage, but the Internet does lend itself to hyperbole so, OK.

It is just a curious choice for them to make.

Either way, it won't really matter.

If the miniatures match the renders, and I have every reason to believe they will, and they scale OK with 40K, RH is going to make that KS total look like peanuts!

Yeah. I gotta say this is money well invested.

 Ouze wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
I'm not totally clear what we're arguing about here, is it:

"I find these Lulu's are bad because giving fantasy children guns and having them fight is unpleasant in gaming due to not liking real world children having had to endure similar/the same"?

Yeah it's kinda weird. I don't think playing as Chaos means that I am tacitly endorsing demonic summoning*.


*although I do

Sigged

I dunno, anything involving kids being a redline doesn't seem like that selective of an outrage to me...

I can see where you're coming from, Compel, as I feel that way quite strongly about depictions of rape, personally (and have discussed this before). It's just too disturbing for me to want to see made light of (well done art always has a place on almost any topic, of course).

However, people made some good counter-arguments about certain miniatures in that regard and I realized that different things affect people in different ways. I certainly agree that some things are "out of bounds", but what those bounds are are hard to say for everybody.

If your line is "anything involved kids", it makes sense that this would bother you. But as someone who hasn't really felt that way, the depiction of these children is about as harmless as any depiction of children in gear for warfare could possibly be. That doesn't mean it's going to be OK for everybody, but I can only speak for myself when I say that it does not bother me, personally. I can understand why it might bother others, and I'm not belittling that- I just don't share the conviction.

So, I know you were joking Alpharius, but when you joked:

Alpharius wrote:I hope I don't see certain someones ever popping in on, say, objectification of women in war game miniatures threads, or maybe...evil space nazi ork threads, etc.

I actually disagree with that because I am not saying it is unfair for anyone to say that these models bother them- I'm just saying they don't bother me, and explaining why.

For others, a certain depiction of nazis will be over the line (glorification of the Nazi ideals, for example, would bother most people). And for myself, the depiction of extreme violence might be more bothersome than the Lulus in their rather innocent poses here. Or, as you say, some things regarding the portrayal of women. It just depends, really!

I think as long as everyone's view is respected and not ridiculed, we can have an informed debate on what is and is not acceptable, and our reasons for thinking that way. Personally, to me these models are acceptable, but I can understand folks who do not think that they are because their line is "anything involving kids" as Compel states.

And regarding kids, as a tanget point, I just think I'd be more worried about exposing them to some of the ultra-violent, ultra-sexualized, or demonic images often seen in wargaming before I would worry about them seeing these . Even the Alien Assimilation Host I'll eventually get from Trollforged has some disturbing parts that could give them nightmares, so that's something I'll be thinking about what they're ready for and when (when we have kids, that is!).

So, all that to say, I think this is a good and worthwhile discussion! As long as neither side mocks the other's position, I think we can all learn a lot here regarding why some people take issue with a certain model, and others do not. Always good to have a reasoned debate about things like this, imo as if we don't talk about it there's no way to understand why folks view it differently.

Disagree if you like, obviously, it all just sort of comes across as a bit hypocritical, and highlights that people will gloss over things if they like most of what a company is doing.

I think you are more susceptible to nightmares than most kids, RiTides Not to mention the fact that kids get nightmares over any random thing, not just "scary" stuff as we would define it. The visual content of dreams usually has little to do with the objects themselves and more to do with whatever we attach to the emotions that drive the dreams. Kids are just lucky enough to have better imaginations than adults, and so don't have just the usual "Showed up to work without pants" dreams.

 Alpharius wrote:
Disagree if you like, obviously, it all just sort of comes across as a bit hypocritical, and highlights that people will gloss over things if they like most of what a company is doing.

That comment doesn't seem aimed at me, as I DISLIKE most of what this company is doing! So, I'm certainly not glossing over it to defend them- again, that comment seems aimed elsewhere. Just thought it was an interesting discussion and tried to give a well thought out reply (at least, I'd like to think so ) on my reasoning. It's interesting that those minis bother some people and not others, when the reverse might be true in other instances. Again, just interesting- no big deal either way

Wehrkind, you're probably right

It's ok either way, really.

I forgot that mini war games is serious business!

 Compel wrote:
I dunno, anything involving kids being a redline doesn't seem like that selective of an outrage to me...

It's an arbitrary distinction. Why is "X" ok when "Y" isn't, especially when "X" is also terrible... especially when we're dealing with something completely fictional.

It's ok to dislike X and/or Y, so long as you don't try to screw with peoples mandollies/art/media by getting them removed from the product, that's where the fight starts ; p

It's quite funny people criticize Raging Heroes about making the Lulu's models while RH specifically said these little girls weren't intended to be played as "true soldiers on the battlefield". These models are more there to add some "cuteness" - even their background is quite "sweet-heartish" in itself, since they aren't forced to take guns. I mean, their guns are actually "toy guns", for God's sake!

Beside, if you don't like them, just don't buy them. You have the choice. I, for myself, quite like the opportunity to have children models in 28 mm. They're not so common, especially at this quality.

 Sarouan wrote:
It's quite funny people criticize Raging Heroes about making the Lulu's models while RH specifically said these little girls weren't intended to be played as "true soldiers on the battlefield". These models are more there to add some "cuteness" - even their background is quite "sweet-heartish" in itself, since they aren't forced to take guns. I mean, their guns are actually "toy guns", for God's sake!

I can think of a few ways that the Lulus could have been handled better. The snipers could have been a mixed unit, with three teams each made up of an adult or late teenage sniper and a Lulu spotter as a squire of sorts. Or they could have acknowledged that this wasn't a good thing instead of relying on the "they're toy guns, honest!" handwaving that didn't actually carry over to the sculpts. Blondie could still be a sympathetic character - she's still trying her hardest to do the right thing by the orphans under her care, even if her approach isn't the best way to go about it.

 AlexHolker wrote:

I can think of a few ways that the Lulus could have been handled better. The snipers could have been a mixed unit, with three teams each made up of an adult or late teenage sniper and a Lulu spotter as a squire of sorts. Or they could have acknowledged that this wasn't a good thing instead of relying on the "they're toy guns, honest!" handwaving that didn't actually carry over to the sculpts. Blondie could still be a sympathetic character - she's still trying her hardest to do the right thing by the orphans under her care, even if her approach isn't the best way to go about it.

Well, there could have been many more concepts for the Lulu's and that's the one RH choose for them. The idea of making "little girls with toy guns" for - let's be honest here- "count as ratlings for Imperial Guard armies" sounds quite good to me.

But you can't ignore all the background behind the Lulu's birth and getting away with just "RH did that wrong". That's just taking a word out of its sentence and arguing it's wrong in itself. It's really not like RH did not explain in details why the Lulu's are that way. They even say how they see them acting in their own game, and that's nothing like "meat fodder on the first line".

Some backers said they intend to use the Lulu's like objectives or just token, others would just have them for the cuteness in itself. The models are more "cute" than anything else, honestly. I mean, how can you take seriously children in clothes/helms too big for them with plenty of teddy bears, pets, lollipops and other "cute" things on them?


Besides, they are just models (and don't forget you don't have to use them in a wargame; collecting - and painting - them in itself is already good enough for some people). I think war in itself is wrong. I also believe in democracy. Still I play at 40k - a game where totalitarism rule in the Imperium and where violence and war are the answer for everything. That doesn't mean I changed my mind - just that I take that as it is: a game, not reality.

And I also think weird that people are offended by womanized or children models while not saying anything about genocidal bio engineered super soldiers who are more than happy to kill everyone in their way - even if it means slaughtering ones who didn't do anything wrong. It looks quite selective in "being righteous" to me.

As does selectively being OK with Child Soldiers does too, right?

 Alpharius wrote:
As does selectively being OK with Child Soldiers does too, right?

They look more like "children playing soldiers", to me. If they were true soldiers, they would look much more serious (or scared...), without all these "weird but cute things" all around. Ah, and it's useless to give them those way too big guns, as well.

I remember "playing war" in my infancy. I admit it was childish, but well...I was a child at that time.

But it's easy to get offended by anything, nowadays.

 Sarouan wrote:
And I also think weird that people are offended by womanized or children models while not saying anything about genocidal bio engineered super soldiers who are more than happy to kill everyone in their way - even if it means slaughtering ones who didn't do anything wrong. It looks quite selective in "being righteous" to me.

I do complain about the bleached, bland take on the Space Marines. Things like this are opportunities to add depth to your characters, but not if you chicken out. The Space Marines are more interesting when you acknowledge that they are abhuman freaks engineered for war, and use that to shape the setting.