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They were mighty and honorable warriors interred in the powerful and venerable dreadnought chasis during their former slavery to the Imperium. A side effect of insanity was a known feature of Dreadnoughts. To counter this, standard operating procedures on Dreadnoughts is to keep them in stasis between service, so that they see life as one constant battle, only awake in times of great need and focus, but Hell brutes get no such reprieve.

Without the cold embrace of nothingness that makes the years and decades between war pass in the blink of an eye, they are driven mad. The rage of a mind essentially trapped within his walking sarcophagus, simultaneously his freedom and prison tears at the very fabric of his sanity and it is expressed through monstrous transformation and mutation.

Some believe that when enough service has been rendered and enough blood has been shed and victories won in the name of the Dark Gods, these once mighty warriors will be elevated to Greater Daemons and once again walk the earth of dead worlds with their own two feet.


Actual Thread Starts Here
Hey Guys, The 6th Edition Starter Set pics finally got leaked and with them, more information on the Hellbrute. The original article is here:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-hellbrute-fluff-and-more-information.html#more
But for simplicity I'll paraphrase below.

Hellbrute is basically a Chaos Dreadnought.
AV 12/12/10 or 12/11/10 (both have rumors, I personally think 12/12/10 is more likely)
Priced at 120 pts. with following upgrades (lets say it comes with MM standard)
-TL Heavy Flamer (Free)
-TL Autocannon (Low Price)
-Butcher Cannon (Moderate Price)
-TL Lascannon (High Price)
-Second Power Fist (Free, but no inbuilt weapons)

I currently don't know if you can replace the exisiting fist.

Can take Marks:
-Khorne (Rage)
-Nurgle (5+ Restore HP or Repair Damage. Doesn't work with Unholy Vigour)
-Slanesh (Grenades)
-Tzeentch (Flamers +1S -1 AP)

USR:
Crazed-Works same as before except the Brute won't open fire on your units with Fire Frenzy unless there is no enemy unit in range
Dark Apostales make it Blood Rage easier
Is not a Daemon, so no ++ :(
Unholy Vigor?-Mentioned when describing Nurgle, but may just be generic. Could indicate a decimator.

Actual Tactics Part
From this rumor, What Tactics Can Be Used, and is it Worth Taking at All?

If it can take a butcher cannon, thats 4 s8 shots right there without sacrificing the fist. Of course, their not TL like a Psyrifleman, but hey, hits on 3s. Plus, FF will make it 8 shots, which is more flak than any other dread can put out. If it can take a second BC, thats 8 s8 shots, or 16 on FF. Could possibly be best rifleman ever!

Also, this thing is a monster in cc. Rumors say its attacks may range from 5-8 on the charge. So give it fists, slap a flamer on and keep other units out of flamer range. Run it up, hopefully it will have UV to keep it alive, and rip things apart. Pretty nice for a 130 pt investment.

Any other tactics?

 quilava1 wrote:
They were mighty and honorable warriors interred in the powerful and venerable dreadnought chasis during their former slavery to the Imperium. A side effect of insanity was a known feature of Dreadnoughts. To counter this, standard operating procedures on Dreadnoughts is to keep them in stasis between service, so that they see life as one constant battle, only awake in times of great need and focus, but Hell brutes get no such reprieve.

Without the cold embrace of nothingness that makes the years and decades between war pass in the blink of an eye, they are driven mad. The rage of a mind essentially trapped within his walking sarcophagus, simultaneously his freedom and prison tears at the very fabric of his sanity and it is expressed through monstrous transformation and mutation.

Some believe that when enough service has been rendered and enough blood has been shed and victories won in the name of the Dark Gods, these once mighty warriors will be elevated to Greater Daemons and once again walk the earth of dead worlds with their own two feet.


Actual Thread Starts Here
Hey Guys, The 6th Edition Starter Set pics finally got leaked and with them, more information on the Hellbrute. The original article is here:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-hellbrute-fluff-and-more-information.html#more
But for simplicity I'll paraphrase below.

Hellbrute is basically a Chaos Dreadnought.
AV 12/12/10 or 12/11/10 (both have rumors, I personally think 12/12/10 is more likely)
Priced at 120 pts. with following upgrades (lets say it comes with MM standard)
-TL Heavy Flamer (Free)
-TL Autocannon (Low Price)
-Butcher Cannon (Moderate Price)
-TL Lascannon (High Price)
-Second Power Fist (Free, but no inbuilt weapons)

I currently don't know if you can replace the exisiting fist.

Can take Marks:
-Khorne (Rage)
-Nurgle (5+ Restore HP or Repair Damage. Doesn't work with Unholy Vigour)
-Slanesh (Grenades)
-Tzeentch (Flamers +1S -1 AP)

USR:
Crazed-Works same as before except the Brute won't open fire on your units with Fire Frenzy unless there is no enemy unit in range
Dark Apostales make it Blood Rage easier
Is not a Daemon, so no ++ :(
Unholy Vigor?-Mentioned when describing Nurgle, but may just be generic. Could indicate a decimator.

Actual Tactics Part
From this rumor, What Tactics Can Be Used, and is it Worth Taking at All?

If it can take a butcher cannon, thats 4 s8 shots right there without sacrificing the fist. Of course, their not TL like a Psyrifleman, but hey, hits on 3s. Plus, FF will make it 8 shots, which is more flak than any other dread can put out. If it can take a second BC, thats 8 s8 shots, or 16 on FF. Could possibly be best rifleman ever!

Also, this thing is a monster in cc. Rumors say its attacks may range from 5-8 on the charge. So give it fists, slap a flamer on and keep other units out of flamer range. Run it up, hopefully it will have UV to keep it alive, and rip things apart. Pretty nice for a 130 pt investment.

Any other tactics?

We're going to discuss tactics for unit that isn't out yet which has stats from a codex that isn't out yet? How can we discuss tactics if we don't know what else will be in our army?

Man's got to do something to while away the time, don't he?

The fact that you are using rumoured rules isn't what bugs me about this, it's the fact that you think you can discuss tactics for one unit in a vacuum that irks me (and it is truly in a vacuum given there's no news on rules for units to go with it).

Not much to discuss anyway, it's just a Dreadnought with a different name, so it does what Dreadnoughts do best, which these days is looking pretty on the shelf.

And I believe its twin-reaper autocannons, not Tl-autocannons.

That means 4 Str7 AP4 twin-linked shots.


Tactics-wise, its probably going to be either 2 powerfists OR Reaper Autocannons OR Butcher Cannon. MoN or MoK to personal preference.

Alternate setup is TL-heavy flamer, PF with Heavy Flamer, and MoT which is going to be used as an assault unit equivilent to the double powerfists except for its slightly better against hordes.

Well, to the posters who complained about it not even existing yet (rules wise I mean), read the name of the thread. You may be quite surprised.

The thread was an attempt to pass the time before the chaos book comes out. The rumors most likely are quite accurate, since they did describe the WHOLE starter box to the last detail...2 WEEKS AGO!

As for the vacuum, its different from a reg. dreadnought. Marks improve abilities or even survivability, It might even see unholy vigor. Just because its a dread doesn't mean its an auto-shelf.

As for Grey Templar, who obviously read the title and actually posted for tactics (thanks btw)

reaper autocannons are just TL autocannons, so I just wrote the latter. And when the guy said twin, he meant twin linked almost certainly. Of course, if it is two, then I'm not complaining.

And the sets are probably what will be run. I wonder if the thread is as good as dead already, take a dread, run it up or rifleman it, and shoot is really the tactic...

I personally think that its either going to get fielded gun heavy or not at all.

Dreads are stupidly fragile in 6th edition. AV12 is just asking to get hull points stripped off it at an alarming rate. Regeneration doesn't do squat if the thing dies in a single turn. This gets worse for it since it doesn't appear to have the INV save of other deamon engines. The other issue is that the thing is only 120 points (before upgrades). In the grand scheme of things that's not all that expensive and I wouldn't expect a game breaker to show up at that price range. The best thing that could happen is if ultimately you can take multiples of these guys and be squadroned. Now you have something, but as a single dread with a fancy name, I expect it to die like most dreads.

As such, I think as a gun platform, that will be its best roll. Sending down a lot of down field shots and then actually having some HTH punch if someone assaults it.

 quilava1 wrote:
Well, to the posters who complained about it not even existing yet (rules wise I mean), read the name of the thread. You may be quite surprised.

The thread was an attempt to pass the time before the chaos book comes out. The rumors most likely are quite accurate, since they did describe the WHOLE starter box to the last detail...2 WEEKS AGO!

As for the vacuum, its different from a reg. dreadnought. Marks improve abilities or even survivability, It might even see unholy vigor. Just because its a dread doesn't mean its an auto-shelf.

As for Grey Templar, who obviously read the title and actually posted for tactics (thanks btw)

reaper autocannons are just TL autocannons, so I just wrote the latter. And when the guy said twin, he meant twin linked almost certainly. Of course, if it is two, then I'm not complaining.

And the sets are probably what will be run. I wonder if the thread is as good as dead already, take a dread, run it up or rifleman it, and shoot is really the tactic...

Yep, I read the name of the thread. Yes, I know that there's rules out for the Hellbrute. Where's the points costs for it's upgrades? Can it take a Dreadclaw? What's it's FOC slot? What other units share those slots with it? Frankly, what other units are in the codex? What are their stats? What are their roles?

You cannot discuss tactics with a single unit in a vacuum. Your post above doesn't have any tactics in it anyway.

(Sorry Grey Templar, not picking on you, just using an example to explain)

"Tactics-wise, its probably going to be either 2 powerfists OR Reaper Autocannons OR Butcher Cannon. MoN or MoK to personal preference. "

This is not tactics. This is loadouts for an army list, which is at best Strategy, and even then not really. Strategy is planning before the battle what your plan will be, what each unit will do, etc, long before you even know who you're playing against. It's basically making an educated guess and then planning for it. This almost always has to involve other units. For example, saying "If I run into Nob Bikers, I'll tarpit the bikes with unit X and then go after his troops" is a strategy. Really, the name of this board is a misnomer.

Tactics are decisions you make during a game. This almost always has to involve other units. For example, screening your guys with a rhino so they get cover from a battle cannon during the game would be a tactic; its a decision you made then based on the matchup.

What's in common with both of these? "This almost always has to involve other units." And without knowing what those units do, how much they cost, what FOC chart they're in, what their options are, or even what those units are, you cannon discuss tactics for a single unit who's rules we don't even fully know yet. You guys are already debating twin-linked reaper autocannon versus twin-reaper cannon

quilava1 wrote:As for the vacuum, its different from a reg. dreadnought. Marks improve abilities or even survivability, It might even see unholy vigor. Just because its a dread doesn't mean its an auto-shelf.

Do you actually know what the term vacuum means in this context?

I think by far the best tactica regarding this unit is to wait for the codex release.

Very good. I think I'm going to write a tactics section for the next Dark Angels codex...

Can we please see the *actual* stats before conjuring ways to break the game and use the models?

Personnally, 6th Edition made Terminators pretty boss. Most likely, that Hellbrute will be Elites, just like Terminators. I think pound for pound you're going to get way more out of Chaos Terminators. Then again, I guess the Hellbrute may end up as Heavy Support, unlikely, but we'll see.

Children, children!

Tactics =/=strategies. But to be honest, half of what goes on in the tactics forum is strat discussions. Because there isn't a strategy forum, just a tactics forum.
If people want to have pipedreams about units that aren't yet released, let them. You might think the village idiot has a simple mind for being so amused by a spinning top, but you have choice whether or not to grief him on it.
Darkcorsair you could probably have put a better tone in that post, but thats your choice. But as much as I'm not a fan of the tone, I agree with everything said and can't see kingcracker as doing anything but flaming. Everyone just Chill eh

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not much to discuss anyway, it's just a Dreadnought with a different name, so it does what Dreadnoughts do best, which these days is looking pretty on the shelf.

Really? Mine look real nice on table top, as walking plasma cannons are hilarious in "the terminator edition"

 Jihallah wrote:
Children, children!

Tactics =/=strategies. But to be honest, half of what goes on in the tactics forum is strat discussions. Because there isn't a strategy forum, just a tactics forum.
If people want to have pipedreams about units that aren't yet released, let them. You might think the village idiot has a simple mind for being so amused by a spinning top, but you have choice whether or not to grief him on it.
Darkcorsair you could probably have put a better tone in that post, but thats your choice. But as much as I'm not a fan of the tone, I agree with everything said and can't see kingcracker as doing anything but flaming. Everyone just Chill eh

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Not much to discuss anyway, it's just a Dreadnought with a different name, so it does what Dreadnoughts do best, which these days is looking pretty on the shelf.

Really? Mine look real nice on table top, as walking plasma cannons are hilarious in "the terminator edition"

Heh, sorry - I pointed out in my last post my tone probably wasn't the best. I apologize for that OP; must've been in a bad mood. As you can see from my posts in other threads I'm usually a nice guy

I'm planning on running a Hellbrute no matter how good it is, simply cause the model is so cool. I'm thinking the Butcher Cannon + Power Fist combo will be great; it's basically a Psyfleman without the twin-link, but you get to keep your power fist. Pretty good I think. Throw on Mark of Nurgle and it's looking great.

Just a question, what are the butcher cannon's stats. I can't find it in the back of the main rulebook.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Just a question, what are the butcher cannon's stats. I can't find it in the back of the main rulebook.

I believe rumors said S8 AP4, 4 shots

I think in very real terms this is a dreadnaught.
Unless it has some mighty stats or rules its still a dreadnaught.
So it will probably do all the things dreadnaughts do.

Of course I totally want one, cause it looks cool, and its a dreadnaught, and it will kill stuff, like a dreadnaught.

MoT with flamers sounds quite good. Looking forward to throwing one into my lists.

Might shield it with cultists. Just cause they look fantastic and everyone should look :p

I think one difference between this and a regular dreadnought is that it can have good shooting ability without sacrificing its melee abilities.

So Butcher Cannon gives it the fire power of a Psyflemen dreadnought while retaining its 2+D3 Str10 Ap2 melee attacks(and the built in weapon)

If it does end up having unholy vigor, I'm going double fists and moK and just letting it tear things up. However, the Butcher Cannon/Power Fist/MoN is probably the best set as it will stay alive longer and still kick a__. I wish the MoT would give it a 5++, but there isn't a single rumor about it :(

Jihallah wrote:Really? Mine look real nice on table top, as walking plasma cannons are hilarious in "the terminator edition"

True, I find it hilarious when those Plasma Dread kill themselves with Gets Hot.

Hellbrute tactica: Place model on the table and out-play your opponent because they'll be too distracted drooling over how beautiful it is to focus on tactics.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Hellbrute tactica: Place model on the table and out-play your opponent because they'll be too distracted drooling over how beautiful it is to focus on tactics.

IMO this is the best way to field it! The model is beautiful!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Really? Mine look real nice on table top, as walking plasma cannons are hilarious in "the terminator edition"

True, I find it hilarious when those Plasma Dread kill themselves with Gets Hot.

Need to roll a 1 first, then you've got a 50% chance of losing a hullpoint. For the dominating firepower walking plasmacannons can put out, being scared of such a minute chance is silly.

 Jihallah wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Really? Mine look real nice on table top, as walking plasma cannons are hilarious in "the terminator edition"

True, I find it hilarious when those Plasma Dread kill themselves with Gets Hot.

Need to roll a 1 first, then you've got a 50% chance of losing a hullpoint. For the dominating firepower walking plasmacannons can put out, being scared of such a minute chance is silly.

That, and how easy Dreads have become to kill, and the chance of going crazy and killing your own dudes, and the chance of going crazier and running forward instead of shooting it.

ahhh you mean specifically CSM dreads. I can see your aversion!

Without knowing what else is in the chaos list, it's hard to say.

Butcher cannon sounds nice but it depends on the points cost. Butcher cannon + fist sounds best to me.

Not sure if it will be worth taking though. Dreads and tanks are much easier to kill now.

I think the viability of the hellbrutes depends on how good the demon engines are. If they are also AV monsters/vehicles, and have invulnerable saves or way to get back hull points (like they are rumored), then I could see Dreads worth taking because then (hopefully) you'll have enough AV on the table to make your opponent squirm a little and they'll have to choose between trying to kill the (assumed to be) scarier and (assumed) tougher demon engines, or the easier to kill but less threatening dreads.

So basically, I agree that we can't really decide anything yet. But, the rumored butcher cannon rules sure look nice, right?

 Jayden63 wrote:
I personally think that its either going to get fielded gun heavy or not at all.

Dreads are stupidly fragile in 6th edition. AV12 is just asking to get hull points stripped off it at an alarming rate. Regeneration doesn't do squat if the thing dies in a single turn. This gets worse for it since it doesn't appear to have the INV save of other deamon engines.

Just wondering if anyone knows if the hellbrute has the daemon special rule?

 Jihallah wrote:
ahhh you mean specifically CSM dreads. I can see your aversion!

Yup, thought that was obvious, but seems not, so my bad.

It's a shame Chaos can't put this is a drop pod like the filthy loyalists. Adding Mark of Tzeentch and double heavy flamers would be -murderous- in the enmy back field: two S6, AP3 templates delivered accurately, one of them twin-linked, ignoring cover. Goodbye lootas, long fangs, deathmarks, destroyers....

But that's likely not going to happen. And as others said, walking this thing up along the board will have it losing hull points to everything S6 and up: plasma, scatter lasers, autocannons, multilasers. amazing model, but very limited applications, based on the current data.

It feels like walkers are too slow to waddle their way into position to be flamers or meat grinders, unless you can get the run going really consistently. I'd also say that the thing is too stupid and unreliable to trust it with an expensive gun and an important role like light transport killer and flier killer. It doesn't feel right, I guess for 130-150 or so, you've got something equivilant to an unreliable rifleman with a fist. That doesnt seem awful, but you've got to make sure you are putting all that to work, and the dumb crazed dice rolls makes that really awkward.

If there's a way to move your assault brute forward fast, there might be a place for it as a way to mow down units with unwieldy or to act as a hammer for grabber units with its d3 rampage attacks. And if the reapers or butcher are strong maybe it will find a place as saturation for a zilla list, but I get the feeling there will be more reliable and more point streamlined options!