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Hey all, I know that this question has already been posted before on this forum, but the question, i feel, has not been answered. This is the link to the old post

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/413544.page

The basic premise of the post is that If you have 3 gloom prisms that are each 3 inches away from a unit, do you get 3 chances on a 4+ to nullify the power? Or do you just get 1 chance?

Space Wolves have a similar problem with their runic weapons, only that their rules have been FAQ'ed and it clearly states that if you have one or more runic weapons within 24 inches, you nullify the power on a 4+ with only one chance. However, for spyders, this rule has not been clarified yet despite 6th edition coming out and new FAQ's being released. I'm inclined to believe that they get 3 chances to nullify a power because of this reasoning. But what do you guys think?

You only get one chance.

I would go with multiple attempts, assuming each model has it. Three Spyders with it would mean three chances to stop it. I came to the conclusion after reading the rules for the Gloom Prism upgrade on pg 46 of the Necron Codex.

yes the codex says
"Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the canoptek spyder, or a friendly unit 3 inches away, with a psychic power, roll a D6..."

This implies that EACH canoptek spyder has the individual power to stop a psychic power, provided that they are all 3 inches away from the friendly unit.

However, if the psyker is targeting the canoptek spyder unit itself (provided that there are 3 gloom prisms in the unit), since each canoptek spyder is part of the same unit, I believe that in this case, only 1 4+ chance is allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

trentblack201 wrote:
yes the codex says
"Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the canoptek spyder, or a friendly unit 3 inches away, with a psychic power, roll a D6..."

This implies that EACH canoptek spyder has the individual power to stop a psychic power, provided that they are all 3 inches away from the friendly unit. There are NO restrictions on how the friendly units are affected by the gloom prisms.

However, if the psyker is targeting the canoptek spyder unit itself (provided that there are 3 gloom prisms in the unit), since each canoptek spyder is part of the same unit, I believe that in this case, only 1 4+ chance is allowed.

Not true. The way the upgrade is written implies that each spyder with Gloom Prisms works with any other spyders that have it.

lol so if you have 6 spyders (2 groups of 3), and they are all 3 inches away from each other, they have...6D6 rolls on a 4+ to nullify a psychic power xD

and even if you have 3 spyders, all with gloom prisms, that's still quite a lot of psychic protection. almost makes that unit invulnerable to psychic powers...

however, it is only 3 inches, so i guess it's only meant to protect 1 friendly unit.

With clever manovering, its possible to get up to eight groups in there with protection.

Big advantage is scarab farming with that or hiding em behind a monolith and just trolling the field with the lith.

Sigh...

Each time an enemy does X

If I use one power on you, you get an attempt to stop it. If I use another one, you get another attempt, since you get once per each time I use whatever power on you.

It does not say " for every gloom prism, roll a d6 " That's what you want it to say, but it doesn't.

Allow me to post the rule good sir.

Pg 46 Necron Codex wrote:
Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed. On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect.

Underlined portion. Thats a single Canoptek Spyder, if another one has the same upgrade, roll for that upgrade as well. The rule only states the word "unit" for other units that are nearby, and does not reference "the Canoptek Spyder" as a unit within the rule, merely the model itself.

It does not say " for every gloom prism, roll a d6 " That's what you want it to say, but it doesn't.

It indeed does not say that in the codex. However, neither does it say that if there are one or more gloom prisms 3 inches away from a friendly unit, on a 4+ the power is nullified. This issue has not been FAQed, unlike that of the Space Wolves (this was discussed in a previous post, the link is in the first post), which specifically indicates that for one or more models with a runic staff, one 4+ nullifying roll can be made. GW had the chance to FAQ it in their latest update, but they didn't. Xzerios' interpretation of the rule, that multiple nullifying rolls can be attempted if there are multiple gloom prisms, makes perfect sense.

trentblack201 wrote:

It does not say " for every gloom prism, roll a d6 " That's what you want it to say, but it doesn't.

It indeed does not say that in the codex. However, neither does it say that if there are one or more gloom prisms 3 inches away from a friendly unit, on a 4+ the power is nullified. This issue has not been FAQed, unlike that of the Space Wolves (this was discussed in a previous post, the link is in the first post), which specifically indicates that for one or more models with a runic staff, one 4+ nullifying roll can be made. GW had the chance to FAQ it in their latest update, but they didn't. Xzerios' interpretation of the rule, that multiple nullifying rolls can be attempted if there are multiple gloom prisms, makes perfect sense.

The issue does not need to be FAQed though. It doesn't say that you get a D6 for each gloom prison, so the d6 roll you make takes all the gloom prisons into account. The reason for this is the d6 from one gloom prison will satisfy all future gloom prison rolls, just like the runic weapons you pointed out before.

But does the ruling need to say that you get a D6 for every gloom prism? I thought that it was implied, as it states in the rulebook

Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed. On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect.

The ruling here does not state that one gloom prism roll will satisfy all future gloom prism rolls, nor does it imply it. As Xzerios said,

Underlined portion. Thats a single Canoptek Spyder, if another one has the same upgrade, roll for that upgrade as well. The rule only states the word "unit" for other units that are nearby, and does not reference "the Canoptek Spyder" as a unit within the rule, merely the model itself.

The ruling doesn't reference the unit of spyders, but rather each individual spyder in the unit. If each had a gloom prism, then according to the rule, each canoptek spyder should have a chance to nullify the power.

In other words, since you have 3 individual models that comprises the unit, for each individual model you should have one D6. Since there are 3 models, you get 3D6.

trentblack201 wrote:
But does the ruling need to say that you get a D6 for every gloom prism? I thought that it was implied, as it states in the rulebook

Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed. On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect.

The ruling here does not state that one gloom prism roll will satisfy all future gloom prism rolls, nor does it imply it. As Xzerios said,

Underlined portion. Thats a single Canoptek Spyder, if another one has the same upgrade, roll for that upgrade as well. The rule only states the word "unit" for other units that are nearby, and does not reference "the Canoptek Spyder" as a unit within the rule, merely the model itself.

The ruling doesn't reference the unit of spyders, but rather each individual spyder in the unit. If each had a gloom prism, then according to the rule, each canoptek spyder should have a chance to nullify the power.

In other words, since you have 3 individual models that comprises the unit, for each individual model you should have one D6. Since there are 3 models, you get 3D6.

Yes actually the rule has to say you have multiple attempts to negate it. It says roll a d6, not a d6 for each one. By rolling one d6 you satisfy multiple gloom prisons, since you need permission to use it multiple times. Look at it this way, you have a unit of spyders in range of a unit of warriors. Are you within 3" of a gloom prison? Say we are. We have permission for "each time a unit is targeted" to roll A d6 (read one) not a d6 for each gloom prison. If there are 3 gloom prisons in range, we don't roll for a d6 for each prison, but a d6. I roll one d6, I've rolled for gloom prison one. Since I rolled a d6 gloom prison two has been rolled for as well, since we rolled a d6 to nullify it already.

I can't understand why people still argue that you only get one roll. Its not a psychic hood. If you have 9 Gloom Prisms within 3", you can roll 9 times. You pay for each of those Gloom Prisms. Anyone who says that is unbalanced needs to understand that its the only psychic defense Necrons hand AND thats its only 3 inches. Not to mention that Canoptek Spyders are tough, but not invincible, and once they're dead, all psychic defense is gone.

IMHO, i think the rule should be interpreted as follows:

Suppose you had canoptek spyder A, B, and C. In order to activate their gloom prisms, the following condition must be met:

1. You are targeting the spyder, or a friendly unit 3 inches away.

If a psyker targets a squad of warriors, who are 3 inches away from A, B, and C, you fulfill A, B, and C's condition, and therefore activate 3 gloom prisms. I disagree that if you only roll for A, B, or C's D6 (hence, only one D6), you somehow replace B's and C's gloom prisms with just A's gloom prism roll. Each canoptek spyder must individually contributes its gloom prism.

Man it'd be much easier if they just said "each further gloom prism (beyond the first) adds +1 to this roll to a maximum of +2", similar to ether crystals.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:I can't understand why people still argue that you only get one roll. Its not a psychic hood. If you have 9 Gloom Prisms within 3", you can roll 9 times. You pay for each of those Gloom Prisms. Anyone who says that is unbalanced needs to understand that its the only psychic defense Necrons hand AND thats its only 3 inches. Not to mention that Canoptek Spyders are tough, but not invincible, and once they're dead, all psychic defense is gone.

By your argument I should get +2 strength if I buy 2 frost blades on a wolf lord. It doesn't work like that, you attack with a chosen weapon (use that profile) and get an additional attack so long as you have a second CCW. It's not, I paid points I better get to use it, it's I paid points now I have to put myself in a position to make use of it. The gloom prism specifically says A d6, one that's it. It does not tell you that you get a d6 for every gloom prison. Ask yourself, did I roll a d6 for any gloom prism to negate the psychic power? If the answer is yes, you've used your only chance for a gloom prism to take effect. It's RAW that you get one and only one attempt every time something targets one of said units.

trentblack201 wrote:IMHO, i think the rule should be interpreted as follows:

Suppose you had canoptek spyder A, B, and C. In order to activate their gloom prisms, the following condition must be met:

1. You are targeting the spyder, or a friendly unit 3 inches away.

If a psyker targets a squad of warriors, who are 3 inches away from A, B, and C, you fulfill A, B, and C's condition, and therefore activate 3 gloom prisms. I disagree that if you only roll for A, B, or C's D6 (hence, only one D6), you somehow replace B's and C's gloom prisms with just A's gloom prism roll. Each canoptek spyder must individually contributes its gloom prism.

Opinions don't hold any sway in YMDC, only rules (and sometimes common sense ). I'll ask you the same question, did you roll a d6 (again I showed it means one) to cancel the psychic power? If you have you satisfied the gloom prism's rule. The rules will spell out if you can attempt to do an action multiple times. In this case it does not explicitly tell us that multiple gloom prisms can roll, so they cannot. A good example of this is, Eldar Runes of Warding. If I have 2 farseers with runes out there, you still only take one psychic test on 3d6 rather than taking 2 psychic tests because there are two sets of Runes out there. It's not take a psychic test for the first runes, and then take a psychic test for the other runes. One psychic test satisfies both Runes of Warding just like one d6 roll satisfies multiple gloom prisms.

Xzerios wrote:
Allow me to post the rule good sir.

Pg 46 Necron Codex wrote:
Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed. On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect.

Underlined portion. Thats a single Canoptek Spyder, if another one has the same upgrade, roll for that upgrade as well. The rule only states the word "unit" for other units that are nearby, and does not reference "the Canoptek Spyder" as a unit within the rule, merely the model itself.

Hmm, I'm inclined to say 1 roll per prism in range.
The rule clearly has 2 effects, A) protects the spider, B) protects units within 3".

If I have 2 spiders, side by side, and you target one of them, the target spider would protect itself on a 4+, and the other spider would protect it on a 4+. That's two different rules effects, provided by 2 different units.

I'm all for it really, it means 1 less heavy suuport choice of Doom Scythe.

-Matt

well, the eldar errata corrected the runes of warding entry, stating that enemy psykers add a D6 to psychic rolls, so if you had 2 farseers with runes of warding, your enemy psyker has to take a psychic test on a 4D6! So in that example, you are adding D6, not making an enemy psyker roll 2 psychic tests.

As for the frost blade argument, naturally, you can only attack with a selected weapon, and then gain bonuses for the other weapon. I know that 5th edition explicitly stated that you select one weapon and fight with that, (p. 42, 5th edition rulebook, Two of the same weapon: these models gain one additional attack. all of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special WEAPON's bonuses and penalties. In 6th edition, though, I can't find any rule that prevents it from being cumulative...perhaps someone can help find that rule?

Anyways, since, at least in fifth (not sure in 6th, I have to find that rule that says you don't get cumulative) edition it was a rule that you fight with one weapon, and gain bonuses for the other, it is natural that you only get the bonus attack from the second frost blade (hence, making it useless). The gloom prism, sadly, does not have any specifics indicating it's limitations or restrictions. However, just by the way the rule is worded, i'm inclined to believe in multiple rolls for multiple gloom prisms

trentblack201 wrote:
well, the eldar errata corrected the runes of warding entry, stating that enemy psykers add a D6 to psychic rolls, so if you had 2 farseers with runes of warding, your enemy psyker has to take a psychic test on a 4D6! So in that example, you are adding D6, not making an enemy psyker roll 2 psychic tests.

Again, look at the FAQ it reads "add a d6," again one d6 and there is no rule telling us they stack so they do not. A space marine librarian goes to make a Psychic test when there are 2 sets of Runes out there. I pick up 2d6 and add 1d6. Look at Runes of Warding for First farseer, did I add a d6? Yep, rule is satisfied. Look at Runes of Warding for the second farseer, did I add a d6? Yes, I added a d6 already. The rules do not say add 1d6 for each set of Runes of Warding, they say add A d6.

trentblack201 wrote:
As for the frost blade argument, naturally, you can only attack with a selected weapon, and then gain bonuses for the other weapon. I know that 5th edition explicitly stated that you select one weapon and fight with that, (p. 42, 5th edition rulebook, Two of the same weapon: these models gain one additional attack. all of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special WEAPON's bonuses and penalties. In 6th edition, though, I can't find any rule that prevents it from being cumulative...perhaps someone can help find that rule?

First of all, 5th edition arguments are useless as it's 6th edition we're talking about. Second is that in 6th edition read the Spaces Wolves FAQ it's right there in black and white (magenta and white?) that the frost blade when attacking with it is S+1 AP3. The rule is on page 51 under more than one weapon, If a model has more than one melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows- he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different melee weapons. However it's worth remembering that if a model has two ore more melee weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat. You fight with ONE weapon and get a bonus attack if you have a second.

trentblack201 wrote:
Anyways, since, at least in fifth (not sure in 6th, I have to find that rule that says you don't get cumulative) edition it was a rule that you fight with one weapon, and gain bonuses for the other, it is natural that you only get the bonus attack from the second frost blade (hence, making it useless). The gloom prism, sadly, does not have any specifics indicating it's limitations or restrictions. However, just by the way the rule is worded, i'm inclined to believe in multiple rolls for multiple gloom prisms

Again, opinion isn't a valid argument. It says roll a (one) d6 to nullify the power. Remember, the rules are what's called a permissive ruleset. That means you need explicit permission to do something, in other words it needs to be spelled out what you CAN do. Can you roll a d6 for gloom prism? Yes, the rules say a d6 can be rolled to nullify. Can you roll a d6 for each gloom prism? No, the rules don't say you may make the roll multiple times for each gloom prism.

Another example about multiples of an item interacting and how they explain it. Take a look right above the gloom prism to the fabricator array. "If a Canoptek spyder..." If one spyder is in base. Then it says, "it can attempt to repair..." By saying "it can" that means we are talking about multiple effects taking place. How do I reach that conclusion? The whole of the fabricator array is talking on a per spyder basis, so each spyder can attempt a repair. See the difference between the Fabricator array and the gloom prism? It's from the same writer and in the exact same unit entry, and it shows that multiple repair attempts can be made because it is talking an a per spyder basis for the array. Gloom prism is different, it doesn't talk about a spyder singular, it talks about a d6 singular is rolled.

As stated, you get one roll regardless of how many gloom prisms you have in range. This shouldn't even be a discussion, we have other pressing matters that require our attention that are actual rules conflicts or problems, this is neither.

actually, runes of warding DO stack. there is nowhere where it says it cannot. many people that i have played against (when i'm not playing my necrons) who run 2 farseers with 2 runes of warding say that my librarian has to take a psychic test on a 4D6 (which is why i never play my librarian against eldar anymore lol)

Gloom Prism

Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek Spyder, or a friendly unit within 3", with a psychic power, roll a D6 if the Psychic test is passed. On a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect.

Fabricator Claw Array

The fabricator claw array is a close combat weapon. in addition, if a canoptek spyder with fabricator claws is in base contact with a damaged vehicle during the shooting phase, it can attempt to repair one vehicle instead of making a shooting attack.

the fabricator claw and gloom prism wording are similar. the condition that the spyder must be in base contact with the vehicle must be fulfilled, as with the gloom prism's "3 inch away from target" condition. the gloom prism wording is like that of the fabricator claw rule. They are both on a per model basis. I do not see how the gloom prism ruling is not based on a per model basis.

lol juraigamer, there are definitely rules that require a lot more pressing attention, i know that. When i play with my friends they argue the same thing you guys are about gloom prisms. And we argued about it for almost an hour! So we decided to give it a compromise, and make a house rule following what Kevin949 said. I follow this compromise (but only when an agreement cannot be met) because, well, it is not as good as getting a 4+ on one out of 3 D6, but it certainly is better than only one 4+ chance allowed.

Trent, do us a favor, and post actual rules to back up your argument. Your argument is not based in rules up to this point, it is based on your interpretation of the rules. We can't forcibly change your mind, but we've laid out our case, with rules supporting our side and if you chose not to play it that way, it's your choice. However, the rules have to explicitly say we can do something, and there is nothing that explicitly says that you may make multiple gloom prism attempts. You're using a proven faulty argument with runes of warding, one that doesn't hold water. You've fallen into the, it doesn't say I can't, so I can. It has to say you can before you can do something. Either way you seem to have made up your mind and not given actual rules to back it up, just reposted the same rule for gloom prism over and over, which means it doesn't pay to waste any more time.

I'll put a stop to this nonsense.

First off, runes don't stack.

Nor do gloom prisms.

Why?

Page 32, main rulebook, top left box:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once."

Nothing stacks unless it says it can.

ahhhhh I see I see. Thanks juraigamer! That makes sense. i guess that's what lone dragoon has been trying to say, but i wasn't convinced since i wasn't aware that such a rule existed specifically in the rulebook!

well, that answers my question then! thx guys!

No problem.

To be honest most people that post here don't like to cite every rule they spit out, it just gets tedious.

So is Runes a benefit to the non-Eldar player?

If you're targeting a spyder, near a spyder, I think you get 2 rolls. Once for being targeted (as per gloom prisim) and one for being within 3" of another. It's two different special effects, and I don't think that's a violation of the no-stacking clause on page 32.

So spyders get to double down, but units without a gloom prism of their own are limited to 1.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If you're targeting a spyder, near a spyder, I think you get 2 rolls. Once for being targeted (as per gloom prisim) and one for being within 3" of another. It's two different special effects, and I don't think that's a violation of the no-stacking clause on page 32.

So spyders get to double down, but units without a gloom prism of their own are limited to 1.

-Matt

Read the gloom prism rule again, it's one or the other. Either the unit is "the canoptek spyder" or a unit within 3". One or the other, if the target happens to be a canoptek spyder within 3" of another spyder, you're out of luck since you fall under the non-stacking clause since you have 2 identical pieces of wargear trying to do the same thing. You get to chose which one you want (it doesn't matter since either choice ends at the same thing) you either use the first spyder's prism, or the prism of the spyder within 3", and as I said it ends at the same place.


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 juraigamer wrote:
No problem.

To be honest most people that post here don't like to cite every rule they spit out, it just gets tedious.

There's the tedious aspect, and there's the, I can't find the rule I want even though I know it's there aspect lol

There's also the "I'm at (insert place here) and do not have the book on hand, but have seen this issue enough times I know the rule by heart" aspect