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Mahu wrote:(...)Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style.

Forgot the wording, but don't PKs make the Nobz strike at initiative 1 / go last, and not reduce them to init 1? If so, the Nobz got a better chance to dodge!

Darog wrote:Any transportation from page 90, but not in general any transport. Why then had to indicate page numbers? In addition, the reference is always clearly indicated on the specific page only.

What does it say for regular squads, p.90 or p.90-91? If the former, they a simply indicating what page the dedicated transports start on.

They are only I3 so a 50% chance. its still an effective way of taking out the PK.

Kveldulv wrote:

Mahu wrote:(...)Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style.

Forgot the wording, but don't PKs make the Nobz strike at initiative 1 / go last, and not reduce them to init 1? If so, the Nobz got a better chance to dodge!

Against Jaws of the World wolf, yes they would have an opportunity to dodge at their base initiative.

Blood Lance is different, having read the wording, it's almost the exact same as Jaws, except instead of a model taking an initiative test, the model takes a strength 8 AP 1 Lance hit. The other difference is that the range is random, 4D6 versus Jaws straight 24".

What I meant by "Jaws of the World Wolf Style" is that you can snipe powerclaws with the ability because it is another power that specifically says models, like Jaws. So the potential is that if you are able to pop the battle wagon and they disembark, you position the Librarian wherever they can hit the greatest amount of powerclaws, and blood lance away. They will still get a cover save and/or invulnerable save, and you still have to roll decent on distance, but it isn't asking too much to take one or two powerclaws out of that unit, especially if he is on a jump pack and can position accordingly. The ork player can still position his models to where it will be hard for you, but even taking out one limits the amount of attacks coming back at you that ignore FNP.

I predict Blood Lance to be a power mandatory for every BA build. For myself, I am going to put it on a Librarian Dreadnought in a Drop Pod, specifically to break up Chimera wall armies.

Sanguinary Gaurd I think are a unit that can work, but will be extremely difficult to get too work. I think there is potential there at their base point cost compared to other units like Lightning Claw Terminators and Honor Guard. In the case of Assault Terminators, you swap out an invulnerable save for jump packs, and an attack for master crafted and shooting potential.

For 200 Points you get either:

5 Sanguinary Guard
Honor Guard on Foot with a decent amount of upgrades
5 Honor Guard w/ Jump Packs and minimal upgrades
5 Assault Terminators w/ Lightning Claws
10 Death Company w/ nothing, or less death company with upgrades
Small Unit of Vanguard

Those are essentially your "cheap" assault units. They all have a measure of additional buy in to take characters or units to buff them. Most of them you need to put a little extra into to buff them up. They all have some sort of transport option either in the Storm Raven and or Land Raider.

Terminus wrote:

Darog wrote:Any transportation from page 90, but not in general any transport. Why then had to indicate page numbers? In addition, the reference is always clearly indicated on the specific page only.

What does it say for regular squads, p.90 or p.90-91? If the former, they a simply indicating what page the dedicated transports start on.

on all entries it says see page 90


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote:

Kveldulv wrote:

Mahu wrote:(...)Blood Lance the Nobz, Taking out the Powerclaws Jaws of the World Wolf Style.

Forgot the wording, but don't PKs make the Nobz strike at initiative 1 / go last, and not reduce them to init 1? If so, the Nobz got a better chance to dodge!

Against Jaws of the World wolf, yes they would have an opportunity to dodge at their base initiative.

Blood Lance is different, having read the wording, it's almost the exact same as Jaws, except instead of a model taking an initiative test, the model takes a strength 8 AP 1 Lance hit. The other difference is that the range is random, 4D6 versus Jaws straight 24".

What I meant by "Jaws of the World Wolf Style" is that you can snipe powerclaws with the ability because it is another power that specifically says models, like Jaws. So the potential is that if you are able to pop the battle wagon and they disembark, you position the Librarian wherever they can hit the greatest amount of powerclaws, and blood lance away. They will still get a cover save and/or invulnerable save, and you still have to roll decent on distance, but it isn't asking too much to take one or two powerclaws out of that unit, especially if he is on a jump pack and can position accordingly. The ork player can still position his models to where it will be hard for you, but even taking out one limits the amount of attacks coming back at you that ignore FNP.

I predict Blood Lance to be a power mandatory for every BA build. For myself, I am going to put it on a Librarian Dreadnought in a Drop Pod, specifically to break up Chimera wall armies.

actually blood lance says any unit takes a single hit, not per model, so it doesnt work like jaws in that regard. An interesting thing about it though is that you can fire it through combat to hit things behind a melee if you wanted and it ignores the units fighting in cc.

Yeah the wording is funny.. It goes over them, its a very FAIR MINDED blood lance!

I'm actually interested in playing around with vanguard. When you factor in the sarge's power sword they cost the same as a normal assault squad for the basic 5 and the rest of them pay a 2 point premium for an extra attack, heroic intervention, and the ability to purchase upgrades. Descent of angels is just the icing on the cake to make them IMO a pretty viable unit.

A SP in a rhino or razorback racing up could probably throw them in the FC/FNP bubble when they come down as well.

I think you missed the part about vanguard that makes them have to pay for jump packs

They pay much more than 2 pts per model for those abilities.. more like 12. They are the same cost as SM book except they get Descent of angels and can take hand flamers/infernus pistols

Kirasu wrote:I think you missed the part about vanguard that makes them have to pay for jump packs

They pay much more than 2 pts per model for those abilities.. more like 12. They are the same cost as SM book except they get Descent of angels and can take hand flamers/infernus pistols

ah yes, you hit the nail on the head. I totally missed that with the entry staring me in the face. Oh well there goes that idea

They are actually 10 points in total cheaper than the SM book, but thats not enough to warrant them IMO

Im seriously considering Baal Predators without sponsons. The upgrade for Heavy Bolters seems too expensive. I envision using them to either outflank or scout + rush forward with the turret weapon spitting death and disrupting the enemy backfield. Crawling forward 6 and shooting everything is nice but Id rather task the stupidly cheap dakka Predator with that task.

Dogstar34 wrote:Im seriously considering Baal Predators without sponsons. The upgrade for Heavy Bolters seems too expensive. I envision using them to either outflank or scout + rush forward with the turret weapon spitting death and disrupting the enemy backfield. Crawling forward 6 and shooting everything is nice but Id rather task the stupidly cheap dakka Predator with that task.

and who needs a deff rolla when you can ram 18" with it for a nice str10 hit lol

Because a deff rolla can ram 1" for a nice d6 str 10 hits?

willydstyle wrote:Because a deff rolla can ram 1" for a nice d6 str 10 hits?

and apparently my joke rolled a 1 to penetrate

Anyhoot whats people's take on the stormraven? It's somethign I really want to work but I just dont see it being able to, especially against armies like guard that pack autocannons and the like out the rear end. On the flipside it having POTMS it can scoot up 24" and drop a twin linked multi melta/lascannon/plasma cannon/assault cannon into something which is nice.

Dogstar34 wrote:Im seriously considering Baal Predators without sponsons. The upgrade for Heavy Bolters seems too expensive. I envision using them to either outflank or scout + rush forward with the turret weapon spitting death and disrupting the enemy backfield. Crawling forward 6 and shooting everything is nice but Id rather task the stupidly cheap dakka Predator with that task.

I agree. The sponsons are way too expensive to start handing out left and right (except for the dakka Pred which adds up to a measly 100 points). The lascannon predator is also way overpriced, considering you can get a fast Vindicator for 35 points less. So far the scariest Baal predator I've faced is the outflanking one, moving 12" and spraying stuff with a flamestorm cannon. That thing annihilates my infantry squads, heavy weapon teams, and can easily crack a chimera to boot.

As far as the Stormraven goes (although I don't intend to play Blood Angels, Grey Knights supposedly will also get it), I would gladly give up the anti-melta armor for a 25-30 point discount on the skimmer. You don't really need the extra die to crack AV12.

I think the fast 135 point autocannon/las sponson pred has its merits too

of course it does

Caffran9 wrote:I'm liking the fast Razorbacks a lot. I'm looking at running small Assault Squads with Priests in them but I'm a bit worried about their lack of diversity. They really aren't good at all when they're not up close engaging the enemy and that tends to be a quality that is not desirable for the objective holding units. I'll be testing this list at 1750 in the coming week:

Reclusiarch

3x Sanguinary Priest: 3x Power Weapon

5x Death Company: Power Fist
Land Raider Redeemer: Extra Armor, Multimelta

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

5x Assault Squad: Melta, Infernus Pistol, Powerfist
Razorback: Lascannon, TL Plasma Gun

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Baal Predator: Sponson Heavy Bolters

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters

Moves quick and retains the ability to shoot, and then packs a solid punch up close. the idea is that since all of my infantry have FNP they're going to be fairly tough to bring down when they get out of their tanks. On the way in the Land Raider and Predators front the advance and present their AV13/14 fronts and give at least cover saves to the softer Razorbacks. I get solid firepower on the way in with the Lascannons and Predators. I'm unsure of the proper weapons loadout on the Razorbacks right now. I went with Las/Plas because I'm worried about Tyranid MCs and that feels like the most effective oladout for dealing with them. TL Lascannons seem better against just about everything else though. I don't like paying so many points for an AV11 vehicle but the 35pt discount for the Assault Marines makes it a bit more bearable.

Alternatively it can trade the Land Raider for a Razorback for the Death Company and then trade the Reclusiarch for Mephiston. The Land Raider just feels like it'll make more a difference than Mephiston in a list setup like this since its like a mobile LoS blocking piece of terrain for my other tanks to hide around.

I see 1 thing when looking at that list.
3 scoring units with a grand total of 15 models that can score in an objective based game.
Even though they are troops choice Death Company do not count as a scoring unit.
As a chaos player I can tell you 1st hand that 15 toughness 5 feel no pain plague marines is not enough scoring units, let along 15 toughness 4 feel no pain assault squad blood angels.

And thats where most of the current interwebz list completely fail.

The belief that somehow they can keep 15-25 peeps alive with just a few preds, aka the tank wall. As if AV 13 somehow magically stops the enemy from outflanking, deep striking or outright destroying the tanks, and then the BA player has to go for total destruction of the enemy.

Eh, the "interwebz" lists give me far more pause than the gazillion Tactical marines crap lists that people think up "on their own".

I agree that 3 scoring 5 man squads is pretty vulnerable. But BA can do the following easily:

Mephiston

6x5 Assault Marines in Fast Las/Plas Razorbacks

3 Fast Vindicators

3 Fast Baal Preds

Can outflanking shooters like Vendettas give this army pause? Yes, absolutely, but by turn 2 you'll have a dozen vehicles in your line and Mephiston wiping out whatever heavy infantry you might have.

Against more Rock lists, it simply needs to sit at 24+ inches firing away.

I could have sworn it said models, I will check it again.

Here is the current Blood Angels list I am playing around with, points costs are estimates:


-HQ-

Reclusiarch = 130

Librarian w/ Blood Lance, Preferred enemy = 100

-Elites-

Furioso Librarian Dreadnought w/ Blood Lance, Might of Heroes in Drop Pod = 210

Sanguinary Priest w/ Power Weapon = 65

-Troops-

8 Death Company w/ Thunderhammer, 2 Power Weapons = 220

Death Company Dreadnought w/ Blood Talons = 125

10-man Assault Squad w/o Jump Packs w/ 2 Meltaguns, Sergent w/ Power Weapon = 220
Mounted in Land Raider Crusader w/ MM, EA = 240

5-man Assault Squad w/ Meltagun in Razorback w/ Las/Plas = 165

5-man Assault Squad w/ Meltagun in Razorback w/ Las/Plas = 165

-Fast Attack-

Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamers = 140

-Heavy Support-

Storm Raven w/ Twin-linked Lascannons, Twin-linked Multimeltas, Extra Armor = 215

@sourclams

Well that one looks different, it has 30 guys not 15. Now i dont know how many points that is. So no im not going to formulate some OPFOR.

@Mahu

Again no idea on exact point costs for the full army, im going to speculate its a 2k list. But again 20 guys that can score? Take those out and youre left without a way to win beyond tabling.

Yes you can go for the tie, but when youre enemy realizes thats all your going to be able to do, he can adjust accordingly.

Again no idea on exact point costs for the full army, im going to speculate its a 2k list. But again 20 guys that can score? Take those out and youre left without a way to win beyond tabling.

Yes you can go for the tie, but when youre enemy realizes thats all your going to be able to do, he can adjust accordingly.

Yes, it is 2000 points.

As a Marine player who regularly places in tournaments with 20 tactical marines, I think you miss the point of the argument against the Razorback spam list.

Mahu wrote:I could have sworn it said models, I will check it again.

nope it says each unit in the line takes a single str 8 ap1 hit. I'm looking at the entry right now. There is a pdf of the actual codex floating around bit torrent. And no I wont send it to people, so dont ask.

Khornatedemon wrote:There is a pdf of the actual codex floating around bit torrent. And no I wont send it to people, so dont ask.

Then why mention it...stroking the good ol' ego...

Sanctjud wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:There is a pdf of the actual codex floating around bit torrent. And no I wont send it to people, so dont ask.

Then why mention it...stroking the good ol' ego...

more like so someone can find it themselfs, but whatever it's not that difficult to do a search.

The .pdf floating around is a fake.

Anyway, it just occurred to me that the Furioso librarian can't gain an extra attack for an additional CCW since he has two special weapons.

Terminus wrote:The .pdf floating around is a fake.

Anyway, it just occurred to me that the Furioso librarian can't gain an extra attack for an additional CCW since he has two special weapons.

no, not the old fake codex. There is a full scan of the actual codex up.

It actually states that the Furioso libby still gets the extra attack in the blood fist entry in the wargear section. It says you have to choose which to use but you still get the attack bonus

I'm not poking at your having the codex because I want it. I'm poking at it because you are advertising something that seems like it will have issues with IP.

/shrug, but I know nothing, so I'll end with:
____________________

What do you think are the balancers in the codex.

If we look at the space wolves there seemed to be alot of doom and gloom.
But as we see, the Grey Hunters are decent, but have issues dealing with Leadership and if you wanted a sort of vet in the squad you had to give up that second special weapon.

What of the blood angels?...maybe starved of a particular FOC slot like every new codex coming out?

Found it, huh, those pesky russians and their scanners.

Anyway, I think the balancers are cost. The fast vehicles pay a reasonable surplus for the ability, the Sanguinary Priests are no tougher to kill than a single marine and cost 50 points (although I foresee some issues if people just stick them in a vehicle for the aura, and never leave). As far as FOC glut, their elite section is simply overwhelmed with great choices. As it stands, they start with only two slots since Priests are pretty much compulsory, otherwise there's no point to playing BA.

why? even w.o sanguinary preists the other elites can make quick work of enemies. regardless of FNP