Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I'd feel dead I guess. A bycicle chain is not intended to beat things with though, it's intended to ride around. A gun has no purpose but to shoot things/people and no alterior purpose other than that. Well I guess if you count pistol whipping I guess it has a bonus use.
I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
So after reading through various pages playing catchup....
Squig_herder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So what would you do brainicac?
Well your an adult, you have the internet, you go do some research on protecting your home without firearms, you shouldn't need a teenager to describe to you that a gun isnt the only form of protection.
However, guns are by far the most effective form of home protection. And Following Alphs example... here are some pics of chicks with guns:
Annnnnd to finish this off... for your viewing pleasure... my avatar in all her glory!
We like guns here in America because it is a symbol of our history. We have become a great nation by fighting the fight and working harder than any other nation has to build up the capital of freedom. Plus, we cling to our guns for self defense. Outlawing them has been proven to raise crime rate, as law abiding citizens don't have guns to protect themselves, and criminals get guns on the black market. By the way, people pull the trigger. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Unlike most other people, I have some sources to back me up. If you disregard these I have more.
2,100 pts Renegade Imperial Guard "Welcome to my strange alternative world of wargaming with toy soldiers: a game for boys of twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that sort of more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books."-H.G Wells, "Little Wars"
DC:90+S+GMB++I+Pw40k08/re+D+A++/mWDR+
Boss Kragskarr's Speed Freeks-A Gathering Waaaagh!
BlutEisenRegel wrote:Outlawing them has been proven to raise crime rate
Do you actually understand what the word proven means? I'd guess no. What you've linked hardly constitutes proof for the statement "Outlawing guns raises crime". The only actual data you've linked at best says "Our finding is that there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that increased gun control results in lowering deaths". Which is nowhere near the being in the league of proof that outlawing guns raises crime. Hell it's not even on the same planet.
We have become a great nation by fighting the fight and working harder than any other nation has to build up the capital of freedom.
Yeesh. Buy into propoganda much?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/05/29 01:42:19
1. So because I am patriotic I buy into propaganda?
2. Tell me where this "propaganda" is?
3. You quoted something and told me absolutely nothing about where you found this information.
Its seems like you just went to one of the sites, found that a section of it fit your ideas, and quoted it, afraid to tell me where it is from and decided to hide behind quotes.
Lastly, can you READ? Look at the ing sites I showed you! They all say the same thing! Banning guns increases crime rate! Stop avoiding my concrete ideas and start looking at the facts. Gosh, 'propaganda'? you make me laugh.
2,100 pts Renegade Imperial Guard "Welcome to my strange alternative world of wargaming with toy soldiers: a game for boys of twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that sort of more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books."-H.G Wells, "Little Wars"
DC:90+S+GMB++I+Pw40k08/re+D+A++/mWDR+
Boss Kragskarr's Speed Freeks-A Gathering Waaaagh!
America isn't the "capital of freedom"
The peoples of other nations have struggled just as hard if not harder (and certainly longer in some cases) to get where they are today.
Your first link is the only one with any real data in it. It contains no proof gun control raises crime (the study isn't even about guns and crime in general, about it's about guns and death in general, murder and suicide specifically) I basically just paraphrased their conclusions section in my post.
Your second link is just a short article that references the first link. That does not magically establish proof.
Your third link is an opinion piece that uses anecdotal evidence and doesn't' even cite its sources. Not proof.
Your fourth link is another opinion piece that doesn't cite its sources. Not Proof.
I'm not saying gun control raises crime, and I'm saying it not lowers crime, I'm not saying it has no affect on crime. What I'm saying is what you've linked isn't proof for anything. Certainly not a claim as big as "Outlawing guns raises crime".
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/05/29 02:07:22
I believe what the OP was asking was not whether or not gun control was right or wrong, but why it is such a big deal here in the United Statesia. We cannot condemn gun ownership, because guns exist and that's just the way the world is. If someone else needs one I need one too? That's where the lines start getting fuzzy. How is it that other cultures are capable of staying civil without guns, while we feel it is a necessity.
I have had a gun/guns pointed at me on four different occasions in my life and have a scar from a ricochet that had nothing to do with me. I can honestly say that in none of these situations did I feel that having a gun on me would have been at all constructive.
The worst one was when some random kid on a bus called 911 on his cellphone because he saw the handle of a pellet gun poking out of my coat, that I was just returning to my friend because she left it at my place. 15 SWAT guys with various M16 looking things... If I hadn't had the calmness to stay very still and say "be nice, no problem here" and instead made one slightly quick move the trigger happy rookie would probably have filled me with holes. I didn't even have a gun. I had what they thought was a gun, and suddenly that created a potentially horrible situation, which fortunately (well for me any way) did not result in a mistaken shooting.
I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
I have proof that in Australia, gun control has lowered homicide rates, and especially gun-related deaths. Most petty criminals (the type that would break into your home) are not able to obtain a gun.
By allowing everyone to have a gun, you have effectively established the need for everyone to have a gun to 'protect themselves'. If a burglar doesn't have a gun, you don't need one either. But when you allow guns, you start an arms race where first the burglar gets a gun, then you get a gun, then he gets a bigger gun... Perhaps it is not so much the number of guns present in America that causes the homicide rate, but rather the mentality that everyone is allowed to (and therefore must have) a gun.
There are still gun-related deaths in Australia. 90% of those are guns from the black market, generally in the hands of more organised criminals.
And the very idea that the purpose of a firearm is not for killing is ridiculous. You may have turned it to another use, but guns were invented to kill people.
I read through the Harvard study, and it seems to me that they decided on the point they wanted to make and then found evidence to prove it; there is not really a large amount of discussion on social/economic factors that contribute to crime rate. For an economically and socially 'stable' country, America's homicide rate is pretty bad. For example, they cite the Russian murder rate as many times higher than the US, neglecting the social conditions at the time resulting from the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the economic downturns associated with that; Homicide peaked between 1995 and 2000 and has consistently fallen to a total of 46% since the data shown in that report; the US homicide rate has stayed roughly the same. I guess that with any pro-gun writing, like pro-smoking propaganda, I take it with a grain of salt.
I would also like to say on home security, and the fictional example of 'a gang being in your house at 3 in the morning'...
If you have decent perimeter security - grates, rollers or sensors on your windows and doors - why are gangs in your house at all? Perimeter security is supposed to be a deterrent - potential burglars take a look at your house, decide its too difficult, and go next door. If someone does have the time and effort to break through your security without giving you at least a minutes warning, then you're screwed no matter how big a gun you have in your closet.
Who are these 'gangs' we all fear in the first place? Why these strange lurking imaginary people would be lurking around your house at 3:00 in the morning? Maybe you owe them drug money or something? I've lived in some HOODS in the past and never once felt threatened by the 'gangs' who are portrayed on TV as some kind of goblin or zombie type of tribe. People belong to gangs, they're called the ARMY and the COPS too. Better armed than you, but unless given a reason, they don't threaten you. Their violence usually just extends to other gangs, they never bothered me because I was no concern of theirs.
I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
Guitardian wrote:Why these strange lurking imaginary people would be lurking around your house at 3:00 in the morning?.
I dunno.. maybe to rob you of everything you own comes to mind.
Guitardian wrote:Maybe you owe them drug money or something?.
Or maybe they are looking for stuff to pawn for drug money. That is what they tend to do.
Guitardian wrote: I've lived in some HOODS in the past and never once felt threatened by the 'gangs' who are portrayed on TV as some kind of goblin or zombie type of tribe. .
Goblin or Zombie?? What Tv channel are you watching?
Guitardian wrote:People belong to gangs, they're called the ARMY and the COPS too. Better armed than you, but unless given a reason, they don't threaten you..
Really..........REALLY?!? You are going to compare Bloods and Crypts or the KKK to the Marine Corp or State Troopers? Sorry, but this just proves that your ideas are OTT and thus should be discarded for the load of hot air that they really are.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/29 05:08:40
Tilean Bastard wrote:I may be a troll, but it is a good question!
At least you admit to being one. And no, it isn't a good question. What it is, is a sad jibe directed at the topic on hand in an attempt to provoke other users.
Better luck next time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/29 05:12:54
You ever been harrassed unnecessarily by a cop, jp400?
I have.
I have not ever been harassed by a Blood or a Cryp though. My ideas come from experience and therefore are not over-the-top
'gangs' do not randomly break into houses to steal stuff they can sell for drugs. They sell drugs in certain controlled neighborhoods. There is no gang of little black dudes out back wanting your dvd player. Stuff gets stolen by people you know more often than not. Just because a 'gang' is nearby doesn't mean you have to have a problem.
And yeah, I've met some donkey-cave bully cops in my time and I DO equate them. Marines not so much (except when drunk and home on leave)
I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
Or maybe they are looking for stuff to pawn for drug money. That is what they tend to do.
No. That's not what gangs do. That's what desperate addicts acting as individuals tend to do. Gangs, at least the criminal sort you'd expect to be heavily armed are businesses. Frankly breaking into random houses so they can grab some of grandma's hummels and bring them down to the pawn shop is beneath them. Now breaking into houses that are being used to store drugs, or that are serving as a base of operations for a competing organization are certainly fair game.
Your average "Gang" has zero interest in terrorizing randoms.It doesn't make money and just draws attention from law enforcement. Sometimes they make a mistake and go for the wrong house but that tends to be the exception rather than rule, as you can't be that sloppy and actually survive for any amount of time. Non gang members who get hurt by gangs are (as far as I'm aware) most often either bystanders who get hurt because they don't care much about collateral damage or people who have friends/family members with them who are in gangs and have stirred up trouble.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/05/29 05:28:41
Guitardian wrote:You ever been harrassed unnecessarily by a cop, jp400?
I have.
Nope. Never have. Why? I can only assume that it is because I follow the law. I also am on a first name bases with about 40 Officers from various agencies and everyone ive ever talked to have all told me the same thing. Unless you are doing something that sends off a red flag, you have nothing to worry about outside of normal police work.
Guitardian wrote:'gangs' do not randomly break into houses to steal stuff they can sell for drugs. There is no gang of little black dudes out back wanting your dvd player.
jp400 wrote:
@ Chongara: See the above. They point to the opposite of what you are saying.
I'd say only the Dallasnews article really points at a concerted gang effort at victimizing homeowners and it does so clearly.
The rest were guys with "Gang Affiliations" or other really wish-washy terms that don't really paint them as agents of an organization. Which is an important distinction, since gang members (like any other individual) can go off and commit a crime with a few associates regardless of if their gang status.
I'm certainly no expert on criminal trends or law, so my impressions could certainly be incorrect. However that series of links at least, hasn't really changed them. Schemes like the ones those guys were running just seems to scream "Catch us, Prosecute us". I'd genuinely be surprised if it was a trend.
That being said if Gangs as organized groups are in fact invading homes en masse. I rather doubt the effectiveness of a single (or even) pair of homeowners against a team of armed intruders who are presumably part of some organized effort.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/29 06:12:38
Guitardian wrote:You ever been harrassed unnecessarily by a cop, jp400?
I have.
Nope. Never have. Why? I can only assume that it is because I follow the law. I also am on a first name bases with about 40 Officers from various agencies and everyone ive ever talked to have all told me the same thing. Unless you are doing something that sends off a red flag, you have nothing to worry about outside of normal police work.
Guitardian wrote:'gangs' do not randomly break into houses to steal stuff they can sell for drugs. There is no gang of little black dudes out back wanting your dvd player.
Need I continue? I could post this kind of stuff all night and STILL would not scratch the surface of it.
@ Chongara: See the above. They point to the opposite of what you are saying.
Yeah I don't break the law either. I do have long hair and I am not from around here in podunk town though, maybe that's the difference of why I can be harrassed by donkey-caves and you KNOW 40 NAME DROPS to get you out of trouble.
I'm both chaotic and orderly. I value my own principles, and am willing to go to extreme lengths to enforce them, often trampling on the very same principles in the process. At best, I'm heroic and principled; at worst, I'm hypocritical and disorderly.
There is no gang of little black dudes out back wanting your dvd player. Stuff gets stolen by people you know more often than not. Just because a 'gang' is nearby doesn't mean you have to have a problem.
There's elements of both truth and falsehood in this...
On one hand, you're totally right, a lot of crimes are by people that the victim knows. I don't know the exact figures (nobody does), but it's certainly way higher than the "mugged by a random black guy" stereotype.
From there, even if you're talking about "gangs of little black dudes" they do exist, they do commit crimes, but typically they're doing it to other "little black dudes." More of the "it's often somebody you know" effect. So it's not like they go off to all white neighborhoods to do violence and thievery.
That said, you can't just parade around the whole of the USA with the assumption that you won't ever run into a "gang" or criminals, or whatever. If you live near the projects, and you park your car near the projects, eventually it's going to get broken into. Period.
So, yeah, it's not like there's black gangsters running through the upper middle class suburbs, day in day out. It's not like that at all. But that doesn't mean it's not very easy to be doing reasonable things, and run into drama. If you live in a major city, eventually you will have to deal with somebody who wants to do wrong to you, and more often than not, they'll be some sort of "gangster." That's just the element in charge of that sort of crime.
Your average "Gang" has zero interest in terrorizing randoms.
That's not true. Most gangs are actually pretty low budget, just kids with no positive structure to keep them right. They love to terrorize people, somewhat at random, but mostly within the context of their local political situation. They're looking for rival gangs, etc. etc. So they certainly terrorize randoms, but again, it's not like they go off into totally different areas of the state to do it.
It's quite sensible to be scared of them.
Or, at least, respectful...
I do agree, there's a certain amount of pushback from gun owners on this front, but the fact is, a gun owner knows as well as anybody, a gun is a greater threat than a knife. Not that a knife isn't bad too, but a gun is far, far more of a threat.
I think there is an irrational fear of guns out there, but it's not irrational to be afraid of them.
Hell, I'm a pretty experienced gun owner. I've shot a LOT of guns, I know how to handle one in self defense, I own a lot... I've still been in situations where I was legitimately scared of what other gun owners were doing, and didn't feel safe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/29 07:38:34
I have a couple AR-15s, and I also have a .22 conversion kit for them. It's a device that fits inside the gun and lets you shoot .22 (extremely inexpensive) through it.
I was showing it to a friend. Before giving it to him to look at, I cycled the action about three times, pointed it at the wall, and pulled the trigger. Bang.
Apparently the extractor failed to extract a live round 3 times, then it fired.
The .22 went through the wall, and then appeared to lodge itself in an attached shed. Major relief that it stopped in the house. Also that it missed friend's girlfriend, who was near the muzzle.
On one level, this was really a malfuntion, more than anything, but it still could be avoided. I've since refined my gun handling technique to include proper visual/tactile chamber checks, but it just goes to show, guns are never to be considered "safe."
That's not true. Most gangs are actually pretty low budget, just kids with no positive structure to keep them right. They love to terrorize people, somewhat at random, but mostly within the context of their local political situation. They're looking for rival gangs, etc. etc. So they certainly terrorize randoms, but again, it's not like they go off into totally different areas of the state to do it.
"Randoms" as I was using it in the in the previous sentence was meant as "Arbitrary people outside their local political situation". That is to say people with no gang affiliations of their own, and without close personal connections to people with gang affiliations. Usually (again as I understand it) they're not horrible at finding the targets they're looking for, that is rival gang members and those connected to them. Because whenever kids and grandparents start turning up dead, community outrage starts to kicks with extra force. Outside forces usually seem pretty content (at least relatively) to "let them be" so long as they're only killing each other.
Guitardian wrote:You ever been harrassed unnecessarily by a cop, jp400?
I have.
Nope. Never have. Why? I can only assume that it is because I follow the law. I also am on a first name bases with about 40 Officers from various agencies and everyone ive ever talked to have all told me the same thing. Unless you are doing something that sends off a red flag, you have nothing to worry about outside of normal police work.
Guitardian wrote:'gangs' do not randomly break into houses to steal stuff they can sell for drugs. There is no gang of little black dudes out back wanting your dvd player.
Need I continue? I could post this kind of stuff all night and STILL would not scratch the surface of it.
@ Chongara: See the above. They point to the opposite of what you are saying.
Yeah I don't break the law either. I do have long hair and I am not from around here in podunk town though, maybe that's the difference of why I can be harrassed by donkey-caves and you KNOW 40 NAME DROPS to get you out of trouble.
See, this is where you and I appear to differ. I don't need to drop names... mainly cause I don't ever need to. If I am driving down the road, and a black and white pulls up behind me and I see him running my plates in the rear view I don't get all pissed off cause Adam 12 is harassing me. I see my tax money hard at work and wave as he pulls around me to run the plates on the next guy.
And when I do get pulled over for something stupid, I'm man enough to know that I have nobody to blame but myself.
"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
"No Sir?"
*From the Right Seat comes a female voice*
"Hi Dad...."
Cops are people just like everyone else. And if you walk around with the "fething Pig" attitude (which you are comming across as haveing) I can see why they would stop and give you a second once over and I can't blame them for doing so.
This video comes to mind:
**WARNING.. slight/mild language ahead!**
@ Phryxis:
That sounds like faulty hardware. I would have contacted the manufacturer about that and demanded a refund.
ing sites I showed you! They all say the same thing! Banning guns increases crime rate! Stop avoiding my concrete ideas and start looking at the facts. Gosh, 'propaganda'? you make me laugh.
