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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-j7n0AnIGM&NR=1

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Read Scourge the Heretic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't compare a las-gun to a .50 rifle. It is more powerful than modern AR, sure, but a .50 cal can destroy APC, commercial airliners, and bunnies. All in one shot each (except the bunny, you might need 2 or 3)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Read Scourge the Heretic.

Either explain what you're talking about and refute my point, or acknowledge that I'm right. "Go, buy and read this book" isn't an argument.

In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

im2randomghgh wrote:In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

That depend on a planet, but such planets are rare ( Cadia, Vostroya, Mordia... ), all other planets give the best of the ir PDF solders to IG.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

That depend on a planet, but such planets are rare ( Cadia, Vostroya, Mordia... ), all other planets give the best of the ir PDF solders to IG.

Not really with Cadia, I think it is more just that there is no place for the IRS in a warzone

Also, it is not so rare, since poor planets that have no other means to pay use men for their tithes, and there are MANY poor planets in wh40k.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In the book, they have like 30 pages talking about how raising Imperial Guard regiments is just regular tithe, and had little/no correlation to the PDF.

It was almost a rant about how unfair it is that the tax is people...

That depend on a planet, but such planets are rare ( Cadia, Vostroya, Mordia... ), all other planets give the best of the ir PDF solders to IG.

Not really with Cadia, I think it is more just that there is no place for the IRS in a warzone

Also, it is not so rare, since poor planets that have no other means to pay use men for their tithes, and there are MANY poor planets in wh40k.

Well, some planets do pay in Guardsman. But they train them well, and sometimes give them the good equipment. Such planets are those I have listed, well maybe except Cadia. Take Armageddon for example, instead of paying tithe, they are giving Armor and Guard units instead. Necromunda to.

And how much is Imperial tithe anyway?

Brother Coa wrote:
And how much is Imperial tithe anyway?

Enough to bleed planets dry for generations. They need enough resources to fuel their forges (FWs) and their war efforts. That's a LOT of resources, plus they need it to help maintain 1,000,000+ planets.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And how much is Imperial tithe anyway?

Enough to bleed planets dry for generations. They need enough resources to fuel their forges (FWs) and their war efforts. That's a LOT of resources, plus they need it to help maintain 1,000,000+ planets.

Ok, but that is only what we see. Is there somewhere some text that said how much is it exactly per planet?

im2randomghgh wrote:@ KOS, +1

@ Sekerra, -1

The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

And yes, they do blink when they lose 80% of their number, the only exception being when a commissar is present.

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

"All of the million worlds of the Imperium shall look to their own defense. They shall also look to the defense of the Imperium, and to the prosecution of such wars as the Emperor in his wisdom shall decree, according to such requirements as shall be imposed by the Administratum. To this end each populated planet shall raise and maintain forces for its defense and, from its ranks, shall it provide the best of its troops for recruitment into the largest of the Imperium's armies - the Imperial Guard."

Read Scourge the Heretic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you can't compare a las-gun to a .50 rifle. It is more powerful than modern AR, sure, but a .50 cal can destroy APC, commercial airliners, and bunnies. All in one shot each (except the bunny, you might need 2 or 3)

Sorry but the quote you are giving that says that they are rarely taken from the best of the PDF is a persons opinion in a novel... in the Imperial Guard codex itself it states that the imperial guard is to be drawn from the best of the PDF. Page 5 at the bottom. Note there are rules for conscripts in the codex too... that is what you are talking about... They are NOT the norm for an imperial guard regiment.

And sorry flak armor of the imperial guard = modern flak jacket is total BS. Imperial Guard armor has a 1 in 3 chance of shrugging off Ork Shoota rounds... which are .50 cal rounds at the very least. Orks do not use caseless AP rounds in their guns unlike the imperium in their autoguns. The armor we give our military does NOT do this.

And we have been compairing 100 regular guard vs. 100 modern military not people with experimental weapons that are not in the field... else the guard gets conversion beamers and the like....

The point on them not blinking if they lose 80% (yes with a commissar present) is that they are used to greater losses than our forces. U.S. military will pull back when we start losing too many (except in a special case scenario) the point is the guard is trained not too... and are often used to losing large numbers. It makes a difference in your mindset.

And I was compairing the .50 cal to a Shoota of the Orks not to a lasgun, and their armor does resist Shootas. Although by DH rules all of our armor and weapons would be considered to have the primitive trait which makes it even less effective against their gear.

sekerra wrote:

Sorry but the quote you are giving that says that they are rarely taken from the best of the PDF is a persons opinion in a novel... in the Imperial Guard codex itself it states that the imperial guard is to be drawn from the best of the PDF. Page 5 at the bottom. Note there are rules for conscripts in the codex too... that is what you are talking about... They are NOT the norm for an imperial guard regiment.

And sorry flak armor of the imperial guard = modern flak jacket is total BS. Imperial Guard armor has a 1 in 3 chance of shrugging off Ork Shoota rounds... which are .50 cal rounds at the very least. Orks do not use caseless AP rounds in their guns unlike the imperium in their autoguns. The armor we give our military does NOT do this.

And we have been compairing 100 regular guard vs. 100 modern military not people with experimental weapons that are not in the field... else the guard gets conversion beamers and the like....

The point on them not blinking if they lose 80% (yes with a commissar present) is that they are used to greater losses than our forces. U.S. military will pull back when we start losing too many (except in a special case scenario) the point is the guard is trained not too... and are often used to losing large numbers. It makes a difference in your mindset.

And I was compairing the .50 cal to a Shoota of the Orks not to a lasgun, and their armor does resist Shootas.

The quote I gave was NOT opinion. It was a guardsman complaining about the FACT that he was used to pay taxes.

Shoota rounds are NOT as powerful as those of a .50 cal rifle. They are not as big, are not as aerodynamic, and do NOT move at Mach 3.

as to the experimental weapons, they are past the experimental phase. The only thing preventing them from seeing use in the field is the price. How much do you think a dragonskin vest, or a full body set of dragonskin armour would cost? Seven digits for sure...

As to the not blinking thing,
#1, we do not have commissars, so take an example WITHOUT commissars.

#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

im2randomghgh wrote:

#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

Uh, you must be trolling.

The estimated Allied casualties are around 10000, and around 7000 for the German defenders at Normandy.

Nerivant wrote:
#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

What have you smoking, I must try it to

Allied casualties: 10,000 solders. United States–6,603, of which 2,499 fatal. United Kingdom–2,700. Canada–1,074, of which 359 fatal.
Axis casualties: Estimated between 4,000 and 9,000 casualties.

There are no MILLIONS of solders there...

D-day was ugly but not the worst by far.

I think the Battles of Antietam and Shiloh each had something like 23k casualties each, or upwards of 50k for 2 days of fighting.

Those are numbers that make the IG proud. lots of dakka on those days

im2randomghgh wrote:
#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

Oh wait....you're serious.

No, millions did not die. A million died at Berlin, and a million at Stalingrad, but those were battles that took place over weeks. If millions of soldiers had died in D-Day it would have been considered a disaster, not a major success. Hell, consider that Operation Downfall, the invasion and pacification of Japan was expected to cause a million Allied casualties alone. Even then, that would have been months, not in a single day.

Don't forget, flak armor can stand up to a heavy stubber. Heavy stubbers are roughly equivalent to heavy machine guns, like the .50 calibre. Flak armor can stand up to that relatively well. And I advise you stop quoting FutureWeapons, as entertaining as that show may be, you need to remember that it described weapons that are either in development/beginning deployment, and often are not deployed, as you said, due to expense. If the US Army gets to show up wearting its fanciest armor and using its fanciest guns regardless of cost, the IG does too.

ChrisWWII wrote: If the US Army gets to show up wearting its fanciest armor and using its fanciest guns regardless of cost, the IG does too.

My next post, if this whole "experimental or undeployed gear" thing kept going, was 100 modern soldiers, kitted out regardless of cost, versus 100 Kasrkins to keep it 'even.' It's just getting ridiculous at this point.

Actually I suggest inquisitorial stormtroopers. Not only are they the top two percent of all stormtrooers-- who themselves have superior training to Kasrkin (whom themselves have superior training and experience compared to our spec-ops) while having similar combat experience-- they also have superior equipment provided by the Inquisition.

For example, the Spoor Targeter, which means the weapon literally will never cause friendly fire casualties because it simply won't fire on a friendly target. And then tons of special ammunition and superior weapons...

Melissia wrote:Actually I suggest inquisitorial stormtroopers. Not only are they the top two percent of all stormtrooers-- who themselves have superior training to Kasrkin (whom themselves have superior training and experience compared to our spec-ops) while having similar combat experience-- they also have superior equipment provided by the Inquisition.

For example, the Spoor Targeter, which means the weapon literally will never cause friendly fire casualties because it simply won't fire on a friendly target. And then tons of special ammunition and superior weapons...

100 Storm Troopers with boltguns and requisitioned ammunition... I wonder how one of those scaled ballistic vests would stand up to a Vengeance, Kraken, or Dragonfire round.

For the millions thing, I had a brain fart and was thinking of the war as a whole

Either way, the point is there. Millions of casualties. IG are the only ones who die in seven digits!

Because the Guard are the only human armies who regularly have to fight Ork and Tyranid armies numbering in the seven digits. Even Marines don't typically have to do that.

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

And although modern weapons pale in comparison to lasguns, it is still more deadly than most people give them credit for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIzyP6l1AM&feature=related

Basically, this is a bolter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4&feature=relmfu

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related

The armour withstood A GRENADE

Well isn't this the stupidest post I've seen all day.
Where do I start? At the top.

40k Flak armour for the average guardsmen is better than modern day flak. That's been debated many times, and the winner is, keeping its 100% win rate, 40k flak armour that is given to the average guardsmen. By a fair margin.

Again, dragonskin has been debated in this thread. Get it wet, hot, dirty, it loses all its effectiveness. It's very expensive, very heavy, and will offer less protection than Carapace.
Those AP rounds were designed to pierce solid armour, so yeah, a brand new and yet completely unreliable technology will stand up to rounds not designed to breach it. It's not making anyone a Juggernaut any time in the near future. All those tests are stupid. To get a real gauge on its effectiveness you need to have a human inside it. If it dissipates the impact like they say then they could use it for other purposes, a bullet could well do some serious damage to a human despite the protection.

On no, not another assault rifle, a rifle which is slightly more powerful than previous designs. Still doesn't hold a candle to a lasgun in any way.

Yeah basically, it's another grenade launcher and not a bolter. Similarities end at explosive rounds. It doesn't have rocket propelled rounds, they don't penetrate, they're lobbed and not fired directly and there's only six in a 'clip'. Any boltgun is VASTLY superior to this.

Great, it survived an explosion near it. The M67 is used to propel what is essentially a more effective kind of shrapnel to kill soft targets. That test is stupid if you want to test it against a grenade, the shrapnel has not time to accelerate out. Did you watch to the end? Look at it! It's completely fed! What moronic human is going to wear this into an engagement? For all the reasons stated above and the fact that it doesn't hold up to explosions. If that was a human wearing that suit, his internal organs would be pulped.

You shouldn't believe everything you see on Future Weapons, each test or demonstration is used to present the technology as infallible. Clearly the dragonskin is a prime example of how you shouldn't.

40k flak armor can handle shrapnel far better than that (in fact, in roleplay games that don't use the d6 armor system, it gains a notable bonus against shrapnel, grenades, etc, boosting it up to light carapace level).

Exactly, although in the test, the suit didn't have to deal with shrapnel at all, just an explosion, which ruined the suit and would likely have killed whoever was wearing it.

iproxtaco wrote:Exactly, although in the test, the suit didn't have to deal with shrapnel at all, just an explosion, which ruined the suit and would likely have killed whoever was wearing it.

Would save his squad, though. Kill a man, make a hero.

That's something the IG can get behind.

im2randomghgh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-j7n0AnIGM&NR=1

I really hope this is a joke. Some guy builds a suit of plastic armour in his basement that hasn't been tested against fire arms or explosives and it's some sort of amazing technological advancement? My jacket has more protection that this and it took less time, effort and money to obtain.

im2randomghgh wrote:The quote I gave was NOT opinion. It was a guardsman complaining about the FACT that he was used to pay taxes.

That means he was a conscript... as I said there are rules for that, BUT that is not the norm for a member of the IG... that is per the Codex.
What you are giving is a personal perception of how he personally was brought into the guard. A single guardsman will not know how all guards are brought into the IG, he will know how his regiment was. And there are conscript squads (often reffered to as whiteshields) in IG, that are people that are just taken at random to fill the quota for a planet, but they are a minority in the IG. (Read page 8 of the IG Codex for information on recruitment of IG forces.)

Part of the quote in the second paragraph end of the paragraph of page 8.: (referring to recruitment tithe of planets)

"In any case, should a tithe be of an unacceptable quality, the Imperial Governor's life is forfeit. For this reason the soldiers selected for the Imperial Guard tend to be drawn from the elite of the planet's troops."

Or in the third paragraph at the end, same book and page.:

"It is not unusual for the elite units of a planet to compete for promotion to rhe Imperial Guard. On some of the more savage frontier worlds, these competitions can escalate into affairs that claim as many lives as a small war."

im2randomghgh wrote:Shoota rounds are NOT as powerful as those of a .50 cal rifle. They are not as big, are not as aerodynamic, and do NOT move at Mach 3.

Per the Ork Codex and every other source that has been given on Shoota's, they are considered to be High cal weapons... And as others have stated a heavey stubber IS a .50 cal machine gun, or better, and the guard armor works just fine against it.

im2randomghgh wrote:as to the experimental weapons, they are past the experimental phase. The only thing preventing them from seeing use in the field is the price. How much do you think a dragonskin vest, or a full body set of dragonskin armour would cost? Seven digits for sure...

They are not gear used as standard gear for any military in the world, so they are not production weapons/armor unlike the flak armor and lasgun of the IG. If you want to play those games with the troops, the IG gets armed with bolters with specialized ammo and power armor, or suits of terminator armor. (Or conversion beamers or the like) We were comparing 100 regular military from modern day to 100 regular IG.

im2randomghgh wrote:As to the not blinking thing,
#1, we do not have commissars, so take an example WITHOUT commissars.

#2, are you unfamiliar with D-Day? Millions of soldiers died that day alone. MILLIONS.

im2randomghgh wrote:For the millions thing, I had a brain fart and was thinking of the war as a whole

Either way, the point is there. Millions of casualties. IG are the only ones who die in seven digits!

On #1, even without commissars the IG are known to hold the line against superior numbers and creatures that are better than them in everyway. The Cadians normally do not use commissars as do alot of the other regiments. In some regiments it is considered insulting to need them. And they still hold the line and face numerical opponents. Regular IG hold the line against Tyranid swarms, Chaos Space Marines, Genestealer cults, Heretic militias with daemons, Oks waaaaghhs, and other things that will show absolutely no mercy. They are used to fighting with no rules from the other side... that they have to fight to the last, as there is no surrender. If you surrender you will die in a most gruesome manner from the other side, and if you try to run... it still happens, they just get extra fun in catching you. (This is why the Tau confused people so, an army that would treat prisoners relatively well.)

On #2, others have already gone over the millions mistake so I will leave that be. But let's look at D-day shall we... there were aprox 175,000 allied forces that over-ran 10,000 german forces that were entrenched. So while we lost huge numbers of lives in that battle (aprox 10,000 to the germans losing 4,000-9,000) you are still looking at less than a 10% loss of troops... IG are used to much higher losses percentage wise, and not having that kind of numerical superiority.

So during that war we lost in the seven digits... during wars the IG are in, they are used to losses of ten digit and higher. (They have losses in the billions) They do not fight against creatures that are equal to them... they fight things that can rip humans apart with their bare hands... or move so fast you can barely track them... with armor that just shrugs off their weapons fire half the time.

But they shockingly enough still win most of the time, that is the scary part.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, the point is there. Millions of casualties. IG are the only ones who die in seven digits!

It's quite reasonable for Guard to die it that way. See it this way: how much Guardsman are Guard losing on every Imperium planet in warfare with someone?
When you look at the size of Empire and number of planets they are fighting - they are in fact losing very little than they should.
On Earth, Guard wouldn't have much casualties. In fact, to the OP - Guardsman would win. Better equipment, advanced training, grater zeal, discipline and technology.
5.56 rounds would simply bound of the carapace armor, 7.62 would do some damage ( same as 5.56 AP rounds ). 100 our troops woudn't stand much of a chance against 100 Guardsman ( for Guardsman I am counting Cadians, Vostroyans, Mordians, Elysians, Armageddonians... ). As for our planet, we would have few chance against a planetary invasion fleet...

We're not unified enough to fight off an invasion fleet, so yeah, we'd pretty much be screwed in that case. Just imagine fighting off an invasion fleet and then a suicide bomber blows up near your command complex.

I think one of the big problems here is the massive diversity of the Guard. Some regiments, like the Cadians and Elysians, have enough training, initiative ("advance forward!" doesn't count as initiative, BTW), coordination, and low-level leadership to be equivalent to NATO armies. Other regiments, like the Death Korps and Valhallan, do not, and are roughly equivalent to Soviet-model armies, such as China, Iran, etc. Historically, i.e. in the Six Days War, Yom Kippur War, and First Gulf War, NATO-style armies (broadly termed, those that emphasize lower-level leadership and initiative) have beaten Soviet-style armies. I'm not counting Vietnam or Afghanistan (in the 80s), because those were insurgencies/guerilla wars/wars of revolution/whatever-you-want-to-call-them-as-long-as-it-isn't-"Conventional".

The one circumstance that I can think of that involves an army with strong low-level leadership losing to one that doesn't was World War II. However, Germany was screwed in too many ways to count, so I think that may be the exception that proves the rule.

Nevertheless, my point is that the Guard is so varied that, in addition to regiments that are as well trained as modern militaries, or regiments that are designed to take casualties like Soviet-style units, there are also units like the Salvar Chem Dogs or various Penal Legions; masses of scum that, I'm sure, we all agree would get slaughtered by modern militaries due to the lack of coordination, leadership, and the like. So, when you say, "Guard", what do you mean? I do not think that there is an easy answer to that.

Now, as for the Imperium having a clear material edge, I'm not so sure about that. I do not see how Autoguns are clearly superior to modern assault rifles; in fact, I'm fairly sure that I've read that Guard Autoguns are equivalent to modern assault rifles. Sadly, though, I cannot cite anything specific. Now, modern body armor has a pretty good chance of stopping bullets; I had an ROTC instructor who saw someone take 3 AK rounds (7.62x39) to the chest, fall down, get back up again, and kill the guy who shot him. When the vest doesn't prevent a casualty, well, that's when you fail your armor save.

Last, I think a large problem with comparing anything in 40k to real-life is that the people who write 40k have a pitiful knowledge of military affairs. In my opinion, their knowledge of warfare is gained entirely from movies and video games. So, anything that they write has to be taken with a big ol' grain of salt, if not ignored entirely. One example that springs to mind is that in the Guard codex, there's a quote from some Guard general who is feeling quite the Billy Badass because he has an, "entire battle group of Guard," which numbers over half a million men. Thing is, half a million men isn't that much; any of the three major thrusts of Operation BARBAROSSA (Army Group North, Center, or South) had more than a half-million men in it, and that was in a small portion of the world.

However, if you want to take the putrid writings of GW as gospel, then Imperial vehicles are crap, and would get monkey-stomped by modern vehicles.

I point to the 2001 Chapter Approved, page 78. While describing the Land Raider, it gives its armor as, "91-95mm (note that the composite construction...is equal to 365mm of conventional steel armor."

Now, that's rather handy. It gives us a rough guideline: Armor 14 is equal to between 350 and 400mm of "conventional steel armor." Ok, so what's "conventional steel armor"? My guess is that.....its normal steel armor. I mean, feel free to debate that, but if it was steel + Awesometanium or whatever, it would say it. Steel is steel, and if you put too many other materials in it, it ceases to be steel, and becomes another alloy entirely.

So, we have AV14 equal to between 350mm and 400mm of "conventional steel armor." One of the problems that plagued tank designers were problems with their steel; some tanks or ammunition were built with poor-quality steel, or steel with flaws in it, or whatnot. This is why countries developed Rolled Homogenous Armor. It is, essentially, armor that doesn't suck (fine, armor that doesn't have flaws in it), and because of its manufacture (rolled), is better than previous ways of armoring tanks (such as simply casting them). The problem now, though, is deciding whether the manufacturing processes used by the Imperium are capable of making armor as good as RHA. I feel that giving them the benefit of the doubt, and having Imperial armor be equivalent to RHA, is the way to go, because otherwise Imperial armor would be worse. Now, again, you can debate if RHA is better or worse than Imperial armor, but again, if there's anything funky in the molten steel, it isn't steel, its Awsometanium or whatever. The manufacturing process may add strength, but I fail to see how significant strength can be added (or, at least, significant enough for what I'll be talking about shortly).

So, the Land Raider, and other AV14 vehicles, have the equivalent of 365mm of RHA on them. That's a nice chunk of armor. In World War II, that would be flat-out invulnerable, even to the fabled 88mm.

But, let's take a look at the Worldwide Equipment Guide, released by the US Army Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC).

The Soviet RPG-22 can pop 390mm of RHA, or 1.2 meters of brick. Its older brother, the RPG-7, does 300mm, which means it can pop AV13 easy. The PG-7VL warhead, though, can do 600mm.
The Panzerfaust-III goes through 600mm of RHA as well.
The AT4 (with the HP round) does 600mm.

So, quite a few modern, man-portable anti-tank weapons can go through the Land Raider's AV14. Sure, the RPG-22 might be close, but it still beats it, and the Panzerfaust III and AT4 beat 365mm RHA by a lot. Now, even if you say that Imperial "conventional steel armor" is stronger than RHA (which is, might I add, DAMN STRONG), how much stronger? 50% stronger? Ok, that's 548 (we'll round up) mm equivalent of RHA. AT4 still pops it. Also, the AT-3C Imp (an improved warhead on the AT-3 SAGGAR) can do Imperial armor at half-again as strong, since it can pop 580mm.

What, you insist that Imperial armor is twice as strong as RHA? So, the Land Raider has 730mm equivalent of RHA?

Fine. The "Malyutka-2" warhead (also known as SAGGAR D) hits at 800mm. Some models of the AT-5B (SPANDREL, or Konkurs-M) can do 925mm.

What about tanks? Well, the Leopard II has that M256 120mm smoothbore. The DM43 round can do 450mm at 2,000 meters, and the "US Olin GD120" can do 520 at 2,000 meters. Hell, the 100mm gun mounted on Romanian T-55s can do 380mm at 3,000 meters (but it says the max aimed range is only 2,500 meters....odd). The T-62s 115mm rounds can take out 520mm of RHA (angled at 71 degrees!) at 1,000 meters. Sadly, people who live in the UK, I can't find any figures on the penetration for the Challenger II or Chieftan tanks. I have the feeling, though, that the Challenger II's 120mm will be able to reach out and touch someone quite hard at quite a distance.

What, now you're saying that Imperial steel is thrice, yes, THREE TIMES as strong as RHA? I think you're goin' a wee bit crazy, but my answer is: The French. The Hot 2T laughs at your 1,095mm equivalent of RHA by going through 1,250 mm. Sadly, the later models of the TOW-D can only do 900mm or so of armor. Also sadly, there don't seem to be many figures about the penetration of the M829 (the M829A1 is the "silver bullet" of the First Gulf War), but I recall reading in Tom Clancy's Armored Cav that a round went through the front of one T-62, out the back, and then penetrated another T-62, destroying them both. Still, though, I feel that its important to point out that NATO main battle tanks are ridiculously scary, and can fire on the move, at 30+ miles per hour, and still hit with precision. In the First Gulf War, for example, it took an average of 1.2 rounds to kill an Iraqi tank. That means that, while moving over the ground at about 30 miles an hour, US and British tanks engaged Iraqi tanks at greater than 2,000 meters, and one-shot-killed 4 tanks, with the fifth taking two shots (frankly, I'm prone to believe that the bulk of the double-shots were on tanks that were effectively knocked out, but didn't show external signs like a brew-up, and were thus shot again for good measure.) Now, can even the Vanquisher, with Pask, hit almost 100% of the time? No? Didn't think so. Now, I feel it important to mention that penetration isn't the be-all and end-all. Sure, you can blow a track off, or jam a turret, or damage a gun, but there's also the chance of spalling. Spall is when a projectile does not penetrate armor, but pieces of the armor on the inside of the tank break off and ricochet around. In an enclosed space. With very soft humans. The HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) round is designed to do that, but I have the feeling that an M829 round that hits something at a klick or so per second (1,000m/s) will make some spall.

I'll end this diatribe now, but again, I blame it all on incompetent GW writers. You are more than welcome to debate whether Imperial armor is equivalent to, better, or worse than RHA, but again, Chapter Approved listed it as "conventional steel armor," so there really isn't much you can do to steel before it no longer being conventional steel. And even if you do, what are you going to say, that Imperial steel is, "a bajillion timez strunger den rha!"?

Yeah. Go right ahead.

edit: some formatting stuff, and the bit about spall.