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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there. .

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Define Urban Environment. If you mean a built up business district with many tall tightly packed buildings then Cadians are trained in a similar environment, and are therefore superior.


In fluff, A LR can outgun. I'm not sure what it's speed is or it's maneuverability but it's armor is vastly superior to an Abrams. An Abrams tank hunting rounds wouldn't dent the shell of a Leman Russ, whilst a single shell from a Leman Russ would obliterate an Abrams. Our modern tanks are never going to destroy a LR, and will run out of fuel quickly in a prolonged tank battle where it's always moving around, whereas as the crew of a LR will just throw their shoes into the stove to keep it running, or pick up some dirt.

Fluff and training doesnt matter when entering an "urban environment". this can be an inner city, highrise laden district, or a part of most towns that showcases buildings of 2-5 stories. Its purely "fact" that the defenders in an urban environment have a HUGE advantage over ANY attacker, and a very small force can keep a larger force from taking their building/block/held area.

This assumes the invading force wants to keep the urban environment intact.

If they do not, they level it.

Having served in the US Army, I can tell you that we have no problems leveling an entire city block in order to take out one sniper, provided the fire or air support is available, and the rules of engagement permit escalation of that scale.

It is a "fact" only if the city cannot be destroyed due to ROE or other considerations. If this is not at issue, then the efficient general is going to turn the place into a crater.

I think it'll be down to the special and heavy weapons they have.

However by merely passing a LD test the guardsmen get to fire extra bullets giving them a huge advantage.

phantommaster wrote:I think it'll be down to the special and heavy weapons they have.

However by merely passing a LD test the guardsmen get to fire extra bullets giving them a huge advantage.

The modern military can have three times the number special weapons, it wouldn't matter. The Imperiums special weapons are about 20 times more powerful and advanced than ours.


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im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there. .

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

Storm Troopers are trained from childhood to the end of their lives. They are infinitely better trained than any of our special forces, not to mention better equipped, better experienced and genetically enhanced. They would wipe the floor with our best of the best without breaking a sweat and would probably do it subconsciously.

im2randomghgh wrote:

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

The PDF are the equivalent of an average soldier today. Probably not an American soldier, but perhaps a Russian or Chinese one. Not as well trained, but a far cry from an untrained insurgent.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

They are BETTER than modern day Spec Ops. Modern day Spec Ops may have training from hell, and they are no doubt some of the deadliest human beings on the planet, but Stormtroopers are genetically enhanced, and raised from birth to be the finest soldiers humanity can provide short of the Space Marines.

They have better weapons, and better armor. They are the equivalent in function however they are more skilled and more lethal than modern special forces.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:As for training, the Guard isn't the equivalent of modern soldiers. PDF's are. The Guard is drawn entirely from the very best soldiers in a given planet's defense force, after which they're given another half year of training, before being deployed to a warzone, at which point they train constantly for the months it takes for them to get there, and during any down time once there.

No, not at all. PDF are the equivalent of insurrectionists in terms of skill. Modern army also have a baseline training time of six months, and then continue training at all times unless you die in battle or leave the military.

Key word being "another half year". PDF's are comprised of trained soldiers, even if they're not necessarily maintained as a standing army post-training. By all indications, the average Guardsman undergoes a selection process as demanding and training as rigorous as that of special forces.

And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today, although probably closer to veterans. Modern Spec forces can generally get into a firefight with many times their number without casualties. And no, I am not referring to COD, I am referring to JTF2, CSOR, SEALS and their equivalents.

Which is something the average Guardsman is depicted as doing. Therefore supporting the idea that the Guard are basically an entire army comprised of special forces caliber troops. Stormtroopers and Guard veterans take that to an entirely other level, with a baseline performance akin to the most unbelievable feats ever actually accomplished.

im2randomghgh wrote:And stormtroopers are more or less the equivalent of Spec ops forces today

They are to spec ops what spec ops are to normal soldiers.

@ all the people questioning my comparison of spec ops to stormtroopers, a quote from the GW website:

GW wrote: A Space Marine is a
genetically-enhanced, psycho-indoctrinated,
highly trained killing machine. Forget the SAS,
Spetznatz and Navy SEALS; their equivalent
are the Imperial Guard Storm Troopers. Space
Marines are something far above and beyond
conventional forces as we understand them
today

P.S., Ninja: http://bestofyoutube.com/story.php?title=superhuman-super-samurai

You have to remember GW also claims Space Marines are actually important and able to effect meaningful anything, while portraying them as bumbling idiots who take credit for victories won by Guardsmen or other conventional forces (for an excellent example, look at the Battle for Macragge, where Calgar royally bungles everything he touches, before abandoning the conventional forces, sending his remaining marines to die pointlessly hiding in holes in the ground, and rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap; the Navy shows up and butchers the Hive fleet, and the surviving Marines return to Macragge to mop up the scattered pockets of surviving Tyranids, meaning the abandoned conventional forces, once Calgar's incompetence was removed from the picture, routed the Tyranids, while a company of terminators was butchered, killing a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the hundreds of millions...), and that the "snappy" taglines on their site tend to actively contradict the published fluff and occasionally themselves.

Yes, GW also says that the Sisters of Battle are "shining examples of all that's good about humanity" and then uses them as little more than scratching posts to kill off to make other factions look powerful. So apparently all humanity is good for is dying or something.

What GW says on its site is often different from what is actually in the fluff-- for example, in BL books, Marines are completely and utterly incompetent, stupid, forgetful, and so on... yet they somehow manage to get the jobs done anyway (usually through copious amounts of plot armor). But reading GW's stuff on the site, you'd think that they were, I dunno, actually competent.

Melissia wrote:Yes, GW also says that the Sisters of Battle are "shining examples of all that's good about humanity" and then uses them as little more than scratching posts to kill off to make other factions look powerful. So apparently all humanity is good for is dying or something.

What GW says on its site is often different from what is actually in the fluff-- for example, in BL books, Marines are completely and utterly incompetent, stupid, forgetful, and so on... yet they somehow manage to get the jobs done anyway (usually through copious amounts of plot armor). But reading GW's stuff on the site, you'd think that they were, I dunno, actually competent.

We can agree on incompetant: "my bolter that fires .75 caliber explosive rounds (a grenade launcher on auto) could kill that greenskin, so I should just hit it with my hammer" but stupid and forgetful I do not agree with. When do marines ever forget?

im2randomghgh wrote:We can agree on incompetant: "my bolter that fires .75 caliber explosive rounds (a grenade launcher on auto) could kill that greenskin, so I should just hit it with my hammer" but stupid and forgetful I do not agree with. When do marines ever forget?

When C.S.Goto writes them (a terminator sarge forgot his briefing and even the fact that his armor had cyclone missile launchers until late in the battle).

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:We can agree on incompetant: "my bolter that fires .75 caliber explosive rounds (a grenade launcher on auto) could kill that greenskin, so I should just hit it with my hammer" but stupid and forgetful I do not agree with. When do marines ever forget?

When C.S.Goto writes them (a terminator sarge forgot his briefing and even the fact that his armor had cyclone missile launchers until late in the battle).

C.S. Goto (a.k.a. Matt Ward) is awful. Whenever possible, try to avoid taking his (it's) stuff as canon. Even when GW says it is, it just isn't.

Melissia wrote:When C.S.Goto writes them (a terminator sarge forgot his briefing and even the fact that his armor had cyclone missile launchers until late in the battle).

If we took everything C.S. Goto wrote as canon, Rhinos could turn into Razorbacks that turn into Land Raiders back into Rhinos, and Imperial Navy ships would acrry hundreds of Cobras in their hangar bays (since Cobras are apparently fighters).

Sure, but it's still canon according to black library. One marinewank story is hardly any better than another to me.

i have to point out to those putting forward the arguement of "out tanks are better than IG"

if anyones read the gaunts ghosts stories then they will know that when the zoicans are attacking the hive city then as soon as the void shield goes down then the wall (made of adamantium and cemite, the strongest materials in the galaxy) gets blown to peices in about 20 mins.

also there is a background hum that is the sound of several billion lasguns firing all at once.


this is to put into perspective how very, very out classed we are (in my opinion).

also there is the fact that the big things in 40k are "dumbed down" a lot, in the fluff how many times have you heard of a carnifex taking "a wound" from 4 bolter shells because it failed its 3+ armour save. and finaly they have made a tank the same difficulty to get through as a concreate wall

thats my rant

P.S i think the point of having the LR tank the shape it is, is to make it an imposing sight on the table top and in the fluff , not practicaly viable

khorne forever wrote:
P.S i think the point of having the LR tank the shape it is, is to make it an imposing sight on the table top and in the fluff , not practicaly viable

They look like the first tanks made by humans, almost like proto-tanks.

Like the British Mark V.


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khorne forever wrote:

if anyones read the gaunts ghosts stories then they will know that when the zoicans are attacking the hive city then as soon as the void shield goes down then the wall (made of adamantium and cemite, the strongest materials in the galaxy) gets blown to peices in about 20 mins.

In the Galaxy. Don't say in the universe. The only ones who know anything at all about the universe outside the galaxy are the Nids.

good call about the galaxy, my bad

now these 2 posts will mean nothing

Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

KOS wrote:Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

I am curious how you come by this conclusion... per the fluff most of the imperial guard are taken from the best of the PDF from each world... and if they need more than available only then do they take conscripts.

This means they are the equivelent of each worlds special forces.... and this is just the regular troops, who trained even more after being inducted into the guard. Add in the fact they have better weapons and armor, (this has been discussed in detail throughout the thread) don't even blink when they lose 80+% of their numbers, and are used to fighting things our troops cannot even dream of... and our troops are at a major disadvantage.

Heck their armor alone would shrug off even .50 calibre rounds.... (the equivelent of ork shootas, they can save against a third of the time.)

Imperial Guard are only wimpy in 40k in comparrison the other people there.... genetically engineered super-soldiers that live thousands of years, hundred to thousand of year old space elves with super fast reflexes and high tech armor and weapons, Green skinned monsters that get an arm blown off and keep coming at you, monsters right out of Geigers wet dreams, and actual Daemons that possess and devour you....

And think of this... the guard actually fight all of those and win as often as not...

well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia. They are always treated as soldiers with not much training while the regular Guards do receive real combat training.

As I wrote before, this is my personal opinion on the Guard. They are always treated like cannon fodders so there is no real meaning to teach them more than "run ahead, pull the trigger". If it would be otherwise they'd receive a different training and would use different tactics.

Yes, they have to face (usually) Orks, fanatical power armoured chaos marines and high tech Xenos. But they are not the best of the best, these ones are the Veterans that do survive the meat grinding machine that is the Imperium AND let's not forget the Stormtroopers.

This is my vision, but we all know (thank God I'd say) that the Imperium is so vast and different that practicaly all our ideas could exist at the same time. We'd have a world with incompetent Guards and another that might have BS4 right away from Conscripts

EDIT

besides this , we are talking about a Science Fiction universe. We are talking about fake units against real ones. It is as if we'd try to compare a Sovreign Class from Star Trek against a Victory Star Destroyer of Star Wars. Nonsense. But it's fun

KOS wrote:well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia. They are always treated as soldiers with not much training while the regular Guards do receive real combat training.

As I wrote before, this is my personal opinion on the Guard. They are always treated like cannon fodders so there is no real meaning to teach them more than "run ahead, pull the trigger". If it would be otherwise they'd receive a different training and would use different tactics.

Yes, they have to face (usually) Orks, fanatical power armoured chaos marines and high tech Xenos. But they are not the best of the best, these ones are the Veterans that do survive the meat grinding machine that is the Imperium AND let's not forget the Stormtroopers.

This is my vision, but we all know (thank God I'd say) that the Imperium is so vast and different that practicaly all our ideas could exist at the same time. We'd have a world with incompetent Guards and another that might have BS4 right away from Conscripts

Cadian PDF is as well trained as the U.S. military at the very least per the fluff as is the catachan's (heck everyone from their world, if they live past their teens, has already literally survived hell on earth style world), etc.. In the stories and fluff they have more than the "run ahead, pull the trigger"... it is the players of the game that use them like that more often than not, not how they were designed.

Now on some worlds the PDF's might be a joke, but most of the hive worlds and "named" ones from the imperial guard codex have skilled militaries that have engaged in combat in recent years at the very least. The PDF's being a militia just does not meet the fluff in any of the books I have read, now the PDF's often fight militias that are led by heretics/chaos/genestealers but they were normally only beaten due to massive disadvantage in numbers. (Heck necromunda even went into details on how one of the gangs fought so hard in the gang wars to prove themselves so they could join the real military of the PDF in hopes of one day being selected for the IG)

The IG are more treated as expendable, (which they are, as just like the Orks; you can kill all you want they will make more.) than being merely cannon fodder... There is a huge difference between the two. Heck in the U.S. military there are times when we consider units to be expendable, if it completes our objective.

Now the conscripts and penal legion units are used as cannon fodder true, but the rest normally stay behind cover and take out targets as they come. (In most of the fluff they are defending locations or sending the cannon fodder first if they have to assault) Heck even in the rules for the orders the officers give, about half of them are movement or defensive in nature not what you give to someone you don't care if they live.

Note I did not say the base troops were the best of the best of the Imperium... they are the best of the best of their world. It would be like if we took all of the special forces from earth and made them into one army... that would be an imperial guard regiment. The best among the best of the special forces would become the elites/veterans... and frankly we have nothing to compare to the stormtroopers, they have been training since kids to be what they are... and get some modifications (just nothing compared to the space marines.)

And remember veterans are not just people who have survived a few battles... they are troops that have survived normally over a decade of fighting the most powerful/vicious things in the galaxy... not just combat, but combat against things that are worse than your worst nightmare... where they were outgunned and outmatched in everyway, but they still survived. This is way beyond special forces training, you are looking at SEAL team 6 groups... And the veterans are not even as tough as the stormtroopers. That is a scary thought.

I am not attacking you on this btw, I know it is your personal opinion, but I was just trying to figure out where people are getting this opinion of the guard from. I know that alot of the players don't even bother with rudimentory tactics in 40k with the guard (or heck the space marines) even though they have abilities built in that encourage tactics.

KOS wrote:besides this , we are talking about a Science Fiction universe. We are talking about fake units against real ones. It is as if we'd try to compare a Sovreign Class from Star Trek against a Victory Star Destroyer of Star Wars. Nonsense. But it's fun

hehe, I have been in those arguements for fun before too... star trek loses, but they always try to confuse turbolaser with the actual weak lasers from star trek... they are no where near anything alike.

Like comparing the necron guass rifles to guass weapon real tech. Same name for totally different things.

KOS wrote:Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

Nah, modern soldiers would be the equivalent of a PDF. You assume Guardsmen are fanatical idiots with no sense of tactics, when they do know what they're doing. Human wave tactics just happen to work a lot (especially when your commander is a politically appointed numbskull). Throw enough men, tnaks and shells at the problem, and it should go away.

People forget what the Imperial Guard are fighting...it's not that the Imperial Guard sucks and lasguns are weak, but it's just that everything else is so damn powerful that they look sucky and weak in comparison.

KOS wrote:well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia. They are always treated as soldiers with not much training while the regular Guards do receive real combat training.

When a planet's tithed, it sends the top 10% of its PDF to the Guard. Other fluff has the recruits joining up when the planet is tithed, rather than being in any military force prior. The only way to reconcile the two is to assume that when tithed, significantly more recruits than go to the Guard are trained and tested, and the best of them are sent to receive further training, while the rest go into the standing army, police forces, or a part-time national guard type thing.

As I wrote before, this is my personal opinion on the Guard. They are always treated like cannon fodders so there is no real meaning to teach them more than "run ahead, pull the trigger". If it would be otherwise they'd receive a different training and would use different tactics.

Yes, they have to face (usually) Orks, fanatical power armoured chaos marines and high tech Xenos. But they are not the best of the best, these ones are the Veterans that do survive the meat grinding machine that is the Imperium AND let's not forget the Stormtroopers.

They're generally sent against numerically superior forces, who are usually entrenched in defensive positions. They butcher them, while sustaining mild casualties. With that in mind, the insane things they do seem a lot more like the completely insane things that soldiers have actually done that apparently worked through the sheer audacity and ability of the individuals in question. I'd link to a bunch of Cracked articles to support that point, but that would entail scouring the obscene number of cracked articles in my history to pick out the three or four I'm thinking of, with no clue what their titles were.

Remember that veterans and stormtroopers have marksmanship equivalent to mutant supersoldiers with a suite of targeting equipment in their helmet, who've been training non-stop for decades or centuries. Normal Guardsmen are only one step behind that.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Remember that veterans and stormtroopers have marksmanship equivalent to mutant supersoldiers with a suite of targeting equipment in their helmet, who've been training non-stop for decades or centuries. Normal Guardsmen are only one step behind that.

While I'm on "your side", I felt that I had to chime in here: They don't. The same BS in-game isn't the same as being that good marksmen fluffwise.

And yet, they are. In truth, Marines don't actually have that much better marksmanship than a veteran human soldier. Their better vision assists them, but shot for shot a veteran guardsman is going to be just about as good as a Marine. This comes from the Dark Heresy / Deathwatch roleplays. The places that Marines have an advantage in are strength and toughness, IE, they do massive damage in close combat and they can take a beating like nobody's business.

Deathwatch represents an already veteran marine, and the basic stats for that are ~40-45 BS (out of 100). Basic BS of a human being is 25-35, and that's base stats for one with no combat experience. A veteran guardsman can get to Astartes level accuracy fairly quickly, although they will have difficulty matching the Astartes at long range due to the Astartes' superior eyesight, and perhaps the marine also having an advantage in aiming faster due to strength (his weapon is pretty light to him).

KOS wrote:well as far as we all know, PDF forces are just militia.

No they aren't, they are like the Guard - just a little less training. Take Macragge PDF for example, they are very well trained and held down Tyranids for a while... If record from the BL is correct than they are trained exactly like today's modern troops.

i dont know if this hase been pointed out already but, correct me if im wrong, isnt a krak missile the same as a normal anti tank rpg today if not stronger, and from the documentrys that i have seen an modern rpg is very distructive. however only 1/6 of the krak missiles that hit at leman russ will penetrate.

so i would assume that if a modern trooper got hit by something that is 2.5 times weaker than a rpg then they would die quickly.

i hope that people understand where im coming from

sekerra wrote:

KOS wrote:Well... 100 moderns against 100 GI ?

considering just the troops, Imperial Guards would be butchered. They would not survive the battle, we'd have serious losses due to their fanatical attitude (if supported by a Commisar) but the normal Imperial Guard shouldn't be a professional as we mean it today, they are less prepared. At least as far as I think about the matter.

Modern soldiers are more similar to a "Veteran Squad" of the Imperial Guard.

I am curious how you come by this conclusion... per the fluff most of the imperial guard are taken from the best of the PDF from each world... and if they need more than available only then do they take conscripts.

This means they are the equivelent of each worlds special forces.... and this is just the regular troops, who trained even more after being inducted into the guard. Add in the fact they have better weapons and armor, (this has been discussed in detail throughout the thread) don't even blink when they lose 80+% of their numbers, and are used to fighting things our troops cannot even dream of... and our troops are at a major disadvantage.

Heck their armor alone would shrug off even .50 calibre rounds.... (the equivelent of ork shootas, they can save against a third of the time.)

Imperial Guard are only wimpy in 40k in comparrison the other people there.... genetically engineered super-soldiers that live thousands of years, hundred to thousand of year old space elves with super fast reflexes and high tech armor and weapons, Green skinned monsters that get an arm blown off and keep coming at you, monsters right out of Geigers wet dreams, and actual Daemons that possess and devour you....

And think of this... the guard actually fight all of those and win as often as not...

@ KOS, +1

@ Sekerra, -1

The IG are rarely taken from the best of the planet's PDF, most worlds without abundant natural resources or money pay their tithes in men for the IG.

And yes, they do blink when they lose 80% of their number, the only exception being when a commissar is present.

About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

The most advanced modern body armour is equal or greater to carapace armour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQwO7-JMvE titanium plates. Like juggernauts from COD

Also, it withstood AP rounds, rounds DESIGNED to pierce this.

And although modern weapons pale in comparison to lasguns, it is still more deadly than most people give them credit for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIzyP6l1AM&feature=related

Basically, this is a bolter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX-99a1JCc4&feature=relmfu






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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA&feature=related

The armour withstood A GRENADE

im2randomghgh wrote:
About the armour, flak armour and modern flak jacket=same diff. And no, their armour does not "shrug off" .50 cal bullets. The only was to accurately represent the flak armour would be in inquisitor IMHO, because flak is only hard in places,and in inquisitor the attacks are IN specific places.

If you shoot any of our modern-day body armour with a .75 cal missile, the wearer is paste. If a Space Marine shoots a Stormtrooper with a bolter, the Carapace armour stands a good chance of stopping the round.


I'll leave the rest to you.