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Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

I don't think people really like listening to condescending and aloof people, I don't find anything charismatic about it.... To be charismatic you've got to be one with the people, feel their pain, sympathize, and then use that to pull them to your side. The Emperor was a god amongst men, he had power beyond belief, but charisma? I think he had something resembling charisma, but it certainly wasn't it. He pulled loyalty through wonderous deeds and power. People believed the imperial truth because to the smarter people it made sense, to others well, you've got this super god like being leading humanity, this saviour. Why wouldn't you follow him?

It was more out of awe and intimidation that people followed the emp, not charisma. Lorgar had charisma, used that efficiently to meet his needs

Still charisma in another form...

If I'm right, and I could well not be, I think that what Tadashi is trying to say is that, while the Emperor lacked common charisma and sympathy, he had a way with people. That may have been due to the fact that he was a godlike being of immense power, but still he was capable of convincing people

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:He only thought the Emperor was "right" when it turned out that the Emperor was the "god" that the old man saw.

The Emperor is very intelligent and could logically dissect the man's religion, but that is just intelligence. He could not sway the man with his words, and was sort of an obviously arrogant ponce.

True, but charisma also includes knowing how and when to manipulate people with certain means, including both words and appearance even if it means acting like a condescending and aloof fellow...that's what the Iterators did, manipulate the basic contradictions common between religions to shatter people's faith and indoctrinate them into the Imperial Truth, and the first Iterators were probably trained by the Emperor personally. As Solomon Voss described them: "The Imperial Truth needed no manipulating...Sinderman and his ilk...". Voss was a Remembrancer, and so believed that the Imperial Truth would be better served though inspiration and example rather than manipulation, but still, Iterators were the Imperial Truth's version of Missionaries.

I don't think people really like listening to condescending and aloof people, I don't find anything charismatic about it.... To be charismatic you've got to be one with the people, feel their pain, sympathize, and then use that to pull them to your side. The Emperor was a god amongst men, he had power beyond belief, but charisma? I think he had something resembling charisma, but it certainly wasn't it. He pulled loyalty through wonderous deeds and power. People believed the imperial truth because to the smarter people it made sense, to others well, you've got this super god like being leading humanity, this saviour. Why wouldn't you follow him?

It was more out of awe and intimidation that people followed the emp, not charisma. Lorgar had charisma, used that efficiently to meet his needs

Still charisma in another form...

If I'm right, and I could well not be, I think that what Tadashi is trying to say is that, while the Emperor lacked common charisma and sympathy, he had a way with people. That may have been due to the fact that he was a godlike being of immense power, but still he was capable of convincing people

No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

pshhhhhh who needs charisma if you are....KONRAD CURZE!

It's more motivation that charisma really. Motivation is getting other people to do things you want. Perfect fit really.

It's like, if Denzel Washington* came into the room and told you to do something, by god you're going to do it.

*Insert man crush here

Tadashi wrote:No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

The Emperor managed to make others bow and obey his will and command because he is psychically the most powerful individual in the history of 40k (Except maybe the Old Ones). His very presence radiated so much raw psychic power that most could not help but do what the hell he wanted when he wanted it, because he appeared to be, for all intents and purposes, a god.

IMO the Emperor had no real charisma, which is part of why the Primarchs rebelled, because he was not capable of really manipulating or controlling individuals who did not suffer immediate heart attacks and boners in his presence.

I have a theory that of the traits passed onto his sons, he passed on his inability to read people to Lion El'Jonson. I mean really read people, sure the Emperor could know everything about you with a thought due to his psychic powers, but as I said before, against the Primarchs, who are more defended against psychic abilities, he could not read them very well, which is why gak like Angron happened.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

The Emperor managed to make others bow and obey his will and command because he is psychically the most powerful individual in the history of 40k (Except maybe the Old Ones). His very presence radiated so much raw psychic power that most could not help but do what the hell he wanted when he wanted it, because he appeared to be, for all intents and purposes, a god.

IMO the Emperor had no real charisma, which is part of why the Primarchs rebelled, because he was not capable of really manipulating or controlling individuals who did not suffer immediate heart attacks and boners in his presence.

I have a theory that of the traits passed onto his sons, he passed on his inability to read people to Lion El'Jonson. I mean really read people, sure the Emperor could know everything about you with a thought due to his psychic powers, but as I said before, against the Primarchs, who are more defended against psychic abilities, he could not read them very well, which is why gak like Angron happened.

The thing with the Lion though was that he was basically raised in the wilds of caliban for most of his life, much like how konrad was on the streets by himself and learned his own form of justice. Likewise, the lion learned how to hide in the shadows and basically trust no one.

But I agree that the emperor had no real charisma. Charisma is like charms or oratory skills. The big E just radiated power, and people were affected by that. I'm hesitant to agree with you Tadashi when you say it's charisma in another form, as charisma IS defined as "a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people." One could argue that the emperor's psychic energy and power could be charisma, as it is literally a spiritual power....

The emperor had a presence, of that there is no doubt, but after that first meeting with people, and his sons, the fact that he could not hold onto them and have them follow his goals, seems more like someone who does not have charisma.....

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, you're exactly right. The Emperor doesn't have the charisma a democratic leader has, but rather the one you feel from the likes of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, etc. It's not about wanting to believe in his promises, but more of a tendency to bow and obey his will and command.

The Emperor managed to make others bow and obey his will and command because he is psychically the most powerful individual in the history of 40k (Except maybe the Old Ones). His very presence radiated so much raw psychic power that most could not help but do what the hell he wanted when he wanted it, because he appeared to be, for all intents and purposes, a god.

IMO the Emperor had no real charisma, which is part of why the Primarchs rebelled, because he was not capable of really manipulating or controlling individuals who did not suffer immediate heart attacks and boners in his presence.

I have a theory that of the traits passed onto his sons, he passed on his inability to read people to Lion El'Jonson. I mean really read people, sure the Emperor could know everything about you with a thought due to his psychic powers, but as I said before, against the Primarchs, who are more defended against psychic abilities, he could not read them very well, which is why gak like Angron happened.

The thing with the Lion though was that he was basically raised in the wilds of caliban for most of his life, much like how konrad was on the streets by himself and learned his own form of justice. Likewise, the lion learned how to hide in the shadows and basically trust no one.

But I agree that the emperor had no real charisma. Charisma is like charms or oratory skills. The big E just radiated power, and people were affected by that. I'm hesitant to agree with you Tadashi when you say it's charisma in another form, as charisma IS defined as "a spiritual power or personal quality that gives an individual influence or authority over large numbers of people." One could argue that the emperor's psychic energy and power could be charisma, as it is literally a spiritual power....

The emperor had a presence, of that there is no doubt, but after that first meeting with people, and his sons, the fact that he could not hold onto them and have them follow his goals, seems more like someone who does not have charisma.....

The thing with the Lion is that he, more than any other Primarch, cared about his homeworld. So he kept Calabanite culture throughout the years and as a result, doesnt mesh well with regular people

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Something not really relevant to what I'm replying to.

The thing with the Lion is that he, more than any other Primarch, cared about his homeworld. So he kept Calabanite culture throughout the years and as a result, doesnt mesh well with regular people

I completely disagree with that. The Lion abandoned his homeworld and everyone on it apart from the new recruits to his legion during the Crusade. He left almost everyone who knew him back when he was a great knight, not a the primarch of their legion to rot. If any primarch kept the culture of their homeworld, it was Russ, Fulgrim, Mortarion, Magnus or Lorgar. And Magnus definitely cared the most about his homeworld.

The lion figured that he had liberated his homeworld after he killed the last of the great beasts and so figured that they would handle themselves

There were a lot of videos sent to him by Zahariel begging him to come back for morale, or at least take Luther back into the legion. They were ignored.

Abandoned? He had to go as a part of the crusade.

Other primarchs returned to their homeworlds, most kept in contact. The Lion did neither.

The lion was a firm believer that he had made his world perfect, he had to ignore them because of his pride/arrogance

I voted for Vulkan, but its a tossup to me between him and the Khan. I'm really hoping both of them (especially the former, since the Istvaan *poof* act is maddening) get some love in the Horus Hersey books.

Someone who likes the Khan? You should be framed and given a medal sir

Favorite: Guilliman (ADB's portayal of him is spot on how I imagine him, Abnett's is a tad too familiar, but otherwise good).

Least favorite: Lorgar, what a whiny little tool

Lion is wierd for me, completely dislike the arrogant little schemer, but totally love the Dark Angels (In fact, after UM I have more invested in DA and Tau than anything else).

Quick opinion, should I add in other famous people from that era, or make a separate thread with all them in it?

Seperate

I assume you mean Grammaticus, Valdor, Malcador etc

Yeah Malcador and the humies that made the Great Crusade possible

Okay I'm recasting my vote. I like good old Sangy, but I've realized that they try to do too much with him and his legion. I'm going dark side and saying Horus is my new favorite

Fulgrim, because he goes all choke-a-bitch on an avatar and tells Eldrad to feth off.

Yori wrote:Fulgrim, because he goes all choke-a-bitch on an avatar and tells Eldrad to feth off.

This deserves a siging

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Yori wrote:Fulgrim, because he goes all choke-a-bitch on an avatar and tells Eldrad to feth off.

This deserves a siging

Also he haves 69 votes right now, that ties in with the hole Slaaneshy thing he haves going on.

That is great

Fulgrim.

A stream of Fulgrim fans coming through, weird

Love Guilliman because i play smurfs. He is the best at strategy and made every world he conquered a place of paradise befroe moving on.
Do like vulkan just because of the ifre thing.
Mangnus is my favourite traitor primarch due to huge psykic abillity and he wants to expand everyones knowledge, plus it is very sad that he is made a traitor for trying to help.
Lorgat is a stupid pansey but in auralian he is completly beast, going mental on deamon Fulgrim and also going ape-s**t on a avitar.

I like Guilliman much more than I let on, but I still think he seems a little douchey

The Lion because he handed Perturabo the siege engines to break the walls of the Imperial Palace.

But seriously,Magnus the Red was the greatest.

Gotta love the Lion [sarcasm]