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Huh! So they don't. My mistake. That certainly seems a little odd.

drakerocket wrote:
Huh! So they don't. My mistake. That certainly seems a little odd.

Pretty likey to be intentional. Dawn eagles don't need any more help!

Yeah, and fodder for the custodes tactics thread.

I wonder if there are any other changes forthcoming, or if that's the "fix" for power armor.

I love bikers, so this is a very welcome change. A little extra chaff-clearing shooting to open up lanes for berzerkers/dreads/bloodletters sounds great!

The change is very nice for vehicles as well, since they are in the category that always doubles shots.

This makes our double combi bolter Rhinos quite nice from any range, and its a nice touch of extra firepower for two points on anything that can take a combi bolter like Helbrute Fists, or a Defiler.

Basically, if you weren't gluing as many cheap combi bolters to your vehicles whenever you had the option, now you have a big incentive to.

I'm not convinced it will be outstanding on Bikers aside from giving just a tad more flexibility with target selection. Bikers are still going to by and large be looking to close quickly, as I imagine myself and others will continue to run them with Plasma (or Melta), which requires closing into very close range. But it will give them things to do from further away, and make the significantly more damaging providing firesupport from an objective, or shooting a squishies further away from their melta / plasma targets.

5 combi bolter chosen might be fun. 80pts and 20 s4 shots camping on an obj.

Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?

Hmmm, that new bolter discipine looks nice!

Actually, I love combi bolter bikes now, and if bolter discipline applies as long as its a bike, I think combi bolter bikes got a big buff.

Previously, I would move forward to 12 inches to get the double tap benefit. But now, my bike squad can stay at 24 inches and still get the double shot benefit just for being bikes. Thats good!!!

I mean, honestly, chaos bikers aren't really fantastic in melee. A half dead squad of infantry basically tanked my 3 man biker squad forever. So, erm yeah, I much rather stay at 24 inches and keep raining out bolter shots instead.

And I think combi bolter plus havoc launcher Rhinos can put out quite a bit of dakka now. There is something to be said for moving forward 12 inches and then unloading combi bolter and havoc launcher. You just forgo using smoke launchers. Its quite a lot of dakka for just 8 points more. And if I read it correctly, for 10 points more, you can have two combi bolters and a havoc launcher, which is really good dakka for just 10 points more.

BTW, that Abbadon led black legion shooty army just got deadlier lol. There are a ton of havocs and normal CSM in that mostly stationary army that would now be pumping out double the number of bolter shots now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?

Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.

So Terminators that are plain have a good boost. Our Bikers were already better than Loyalists and they got a nice little boost. Chosen are still better than Chaos Marines.

I wonder with the new bolter thing if putting warp time on a unit still allows them to double tap. The bolter rule is remained stationary in the previous movement phase.

Say you did that but in the psychic phase were warp timed would that still trigger that second bullet point in the rule allowing you to fire twice.

Crazy idea of 20 marines slannesh, warp time them and votlw + slannesh strat

80 30" bolter shots with +1 to wound

edit: wow mathahmmer it'd only kill 5/6 prmaris marines... normal CSM cannot be saved from the poopness XD
would kill like 34 orks thou

 Latro_ wrote:
I wonder with the new bolter thing if putting warp time on a unit still allows them to double tap. The bolter rule is remained stationary in the previous movement phase.

Say you did that but in the psychic phase were warp timed would that still trigger that second bullet point in the rule allowing you to fire twice.

Crazy idea of 20 marines slannesh, warp time them and votlw + slannesh strat

80 30" bolter shots with +1 to wound

edit: wow mathahmmer it'd only kill 5/6 prmaris marines... normal CSM cannot be saved from the poopness XD
would kill like 34 orks thou

You'd imagine 10'000 years old veterans with some other Veterans, would be capable of actually killing their marine counterparts somewhat decently.

Think again!

Some of them are 10,000 year veterans. Others are fresh of the barge from the Heresy. They have munitions problems, morale problems, occasionally emotional disturbances, and their logistics would make a Munitorum official's augmetic-eyelid start twitching uncontrollably.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?

Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.

Having strats that boost a unit may or may not be part of it. Keep in mind that just about every army has strats and it's very hard to objectively compare most of them without the debate degrading to a "my dad can beat up your dad" style argument.

The real reason, I think, that Chaos Termies have a higher base cost is due to their cheaper options. GW seems to want Chaos & Loyalist termies to be roughly the same cost after wargear. Since Chaos termies can take cheaper melee weapons, the cost had to come in somewhere. And while adding Comb-weapons can jack up their cost, they become arguably much better than their Loyalist counterparts even before you start considering Strats.

IMO, the fact that GW prices units like this gives me continued optimism that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing sometimes.

-

Don’t try to make ‘Warptime then shoot as if stationary’ a thing, it’s clearly not going to happen. At the very least a RAW lawyer will build a counterpoint of Warptime being ‘as if it were their movement phase’ and no TO is going to lowit.

Agreed. People try and break warp time enough as it is.

I am liking this bolter change but i still find it hard to figure out how my chaos bikers should be loaded out and what roll they can fill that could not be filled by other chaos units....

 Galef wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Okay, so I was looking at the new CA18 points values and noticed the loyalists get Terminators 5pts cheaper than Chaos Terminators. Is that a typo? What's up with that?

Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.

Having strats that boost a unit may or may not be part of it. Keep in mind that just about every army has strats and it's very hard to objectively compare most of them without the debate degrading to a "my dad can beat up your dad" style argument.

The real reason, I think, that Chaos Termies have a higher base cost is due to their cheaper options. GW seems to want Chaos & Loyalist termies to be roughly the same cost after wargear. Since Chaos termies can take cheaper melee weapons, the cost had to come in somewhere. And while adding Comb-weapons can jack up their cost, they become arguably much better than their Loyalist counterparts even before you start considering Strats.

IMO, the fact that GW prices units like this gives me continued optimism that maybe, just maybe, they know what they are doing sometimes.

-

Then they need to cost the Strategems different. GW really doesn't know what they're doing in that regard. It HAS to assume you have all Combi-Plasma and you're Slaanesh.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Apparently, because Chaos has this strategem called cacophony, which allows slanaash terminators to shoot twice. They factor stuff like that in. Else how on earth would they raise cultist to 5 points and let Infantry squad remain at 4 points a model. Because of strategems like Vets, tide of traitors, etc etc.

At first that made sense to me, but then I noticed that Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs all have the opportunity for those strategems without any additional cost above and beyond their SM equivalents (Sternguard, Assault squads, and Devastators squads).

Exactly. For whatever reason, GW didn't assume your Raptors are all Khorne with the rerolling charge banner and you always have 3CP to fight twice. It's just really bad inconsistency to me.

I'm going with the notion that 8 and 3 really look alike and that my money, were I a betting-person, would go on a typo.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I'm going with the notion that 8 and 3 really look alike and that my money, were I a betting-person, would go on a typo.

Na, it's because we have cheaper equipment possibilities which seemed unfair....
Now we pay Spike tax so that our worse equipment does not outdo loyalists terminators.
God forbid we had something better then them that isn't fething dp 's

Emperor's Children 2k points. No Cultists, for thematic reasons.



++Spearhead Detachment, Emperor's Children++

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, 2x Talon, Intoxicating Elixir, Stimulated by Pain (Warlord)

Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons



++Battalion, Emperor's Children++

Lucius
Sorcerer, Jump Pack, Warptime, Prescience


5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster


Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter





Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.

I'd consider taking some Sonic Dreadnoughts, they cost about the same as a 5 man noise marine squad, and have a separate shoot twice stratagem that means they put out quite a lot of shots.

Azuza001 wrote:
Agreed. People try and break warp time enough as it is.

I am liking this bolter change but i still find it hard to figure out how my chaos bikers should be loaded out and what roll they can fill that could not be filled by other chaos units....

If was gonna go competitive i'd take a unit of 3 just with bolters and the champ with a combi bolter.

16 bolter shots at 24" all the time
can move 20" if they need to

So chaff clearing, general harassment
Get to objs super quick
3 of them lined up is fairly big foot print for blocking / deep strike denial
Use them to tie up a enemy vehicle

best thing: 65pt unit

 King Pyrrhus wrote:

I'd consider taking some Sonic Dreadnoughts, they cost about the same as a 5 man noise marine squad, and have a separate shoot twice stratagem that means they put out quite a lot of shots.

where can i find info on them?

 Glorious Hair Boi wrote:

 King Pyrrhus wrote:

I'd consider taking some Sonic Dreadnoughts, they cost about the same as a 5 man noise marine squad, and have a separate shoot twice stratagem that means they put out quite a lot of shots.

where can i find info on them?

It's in the FAQ... for Chaos Forge World, I think. It's basically a Helbrute with a twin blastmaster.

What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.

Nothing really. His cost is about the same, he does about the same as a regular lord. He is not a krom dragongaze thats for sure. Technically he is worse than a normal lord with only a 5++.

Azuza001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.

Nothing really. His cost is about the same, he does about the same as a regular lord. He is not a krom dragongaze thats for sure. Technically he is worse than a normal lord with only a 5++.

The list should really replace Lucius for a regular Chaos Lord then. Power Fist and the Bolt Pistol replaced with the Relic one that Emperors Children get.

With the new bolter change, 3 units of 3 bikers up to the teeth on bolters would make a really funky and cheap way to begin transforming our battalion into a brigade. I have found that fast slots are the most difficult ones to fill usually.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
With the new bolter change, 3 units of 3 bikers up to the teeth on bolters would make a really funky and cheap way to begin transforming our battalion into a brigade. I have found that fast slots are the most difficult ones to fill usually.

I haven't read our codex in a while, but we still get to keep our Chainsword if we take a special weapon right?

That's a minimum 6 Bolter shots and 3-6 Plasma shots. That's not exactly a terrible deal.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.

7 attacks Vs characters and a 2 damage power sword, and almost the same price.

it's not much difference but it's also not much points, he's mostly there because I like Lucius.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What does Lucius bring to the table, exactly, you won't get from a regular Chaos Lord? I'm curious on the justification.

Nothing really. His cost is about the same, he does about the same as a regular lord. He is not a krom dragongaze thats for sure. Technically he is worse than a normal lord with only a 5++.

The list should really replace Lucius for a regular Chaos Lord then. Power Fist and the Bolt Pistol replaced with the Relic one that Emperors Children get.

hmm thats like 2 pts cheaper than Lucius, for a model with less damage Vs characters, and a worse pistol than the one he already has, that costs a CP to equip. I think I'll just stick with Lucius, it's a sidegrade at best and 2 pts isn't a relevant change in any way at all.