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I would make 1-2 10 men squads.
The slaanesh strategem works better with it, and they fit in a rhino.

Looks like a solid list, what could go wrong?
... besides 40 raging Orks jump in ya face and bound everything.
but you have enough dakka and noise marines have 2 attacks.

 Glorious Hair Boi wrote:
Emperor's Children 2k points. No Cultists, for thematic reasons.



++Spearhead Detachment, Emperor's Children++

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, 2x Talon, Intoxicating Elixir, Stimulated by Pain (Warlord)

Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons



++Battalion, Emperor's Children++

Lucius
Sorcerer, Jump Pack, Warptime, Prescience


5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster


Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter





Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.

I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.

 Ap0k wrote:


I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.

To be fair, at least with Noise Marines they are shooting as they go down, and DE Vehicles are far from immune to the Blast Masters in those Noise Marine squads. You can make the criticism you just made for absolutely any heavy MEQ oriented list. At least the Noise Marines can do something on their way out. Dark Eldar are good, but man, this isn't a list criticism just a post saying "lol DE", and the DE matchup isn't even as bad as it is for most power armor lists!

 Ap0k wrote:

 Glorious Hair Boi wrote:
Emperor's Children 2k points. No Cultists, for thematic reasons.



++Spearhead Detachment, Emperor's Children++

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, 2x Talon, Intoxicating Elixir, Stimulated by Pain (Warlord)

Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons



++Battalion, Emperor's Children++

Lucius
Sorcerer, Jump Pack, Warptime, Prescience


5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster


Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter





Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.

I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.

My experience is that disintegrators are effective against everything marines, the Rhino's will help a little in this regard, and at least Noise Marines will be trading up with them as they go down. Other than Storm Shields which aren't even on the menu for us, I can't think of any Marines who would be positioned better against what you describe than Noisey bois. Its just the nature of the army I think, not much point in playing EC if you aren't taking any Marines. It's like saying to a custodes player, "you know that those mortal wounds are going to hurt right?". There isnt really a response to that other than "Yeah... but I still want to play custodes."

I would do chaos lord, black mace and warlord trait exalted champion. This gives you 5 str 7 ap-2 2dmg attacks vs lucius's 5 str 4 ap-3 2dmg attacks. Granted lucius gets +2 attacks when targeting a chr but the chaos lord has a 4++ save to lucius and costs a tad bit cheaper (78 vs 85).

Having said that taking lucius isnt going to make much of a difference in game. It really comes down to that 5++ save for me though.

I actually forgot about the Mace.

Azuza001 wrote:
I would do chaos lord, black mace and warlord trait exalted champion. This gives you 5 str 7 ap-2 2dmg attacks vs lucius's 5 str 4 ap-3 2dmg attacks. Granted lucius gets +2 attacks when targeting a chr but the chaos lord has a 4++ save to lucius and costs a tad bit cheaper (78 vs 85).

Having said that taking lucius isnt going to make much of a difference in game. It really comes down to that 5++ save for me though.

Definitely a better choice then. I'll swap it over when I get the model, I already have a Lucius and not too keen to buy and model a new Lord just yet, especially just to save like 9 pts. As I said, he's mostly a thematic inclusion at the moment and the points difference is negligible. Good advice though.

How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.

And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.

And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.

Cultist bomb, and since i also play r&h i generally also have enough los ignoring firepower to severly cripple them.



Edit: a melee one can tie up multiple units of him.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.

And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.

Cultist bomb, and since i also play r&h i generally also have enough los ignoring firepower to severly cripple them.



Edit: a melee one can tie up multiple units of him.

lol

"by bringing basilisks of my own"


I like your style sir

lol

"by bringing basilisks of my own"


I like your style sir

Actually good sir, i thought more along the lines off double the ammount of his mortars, if i may say so.
I mean he has the oppurtunity, arguable even the better LOS ignoring firepower since renegades can take 6 hwt's with mortars per one support slot alone.

@Eldenfirefly:
Alternatively, just take stuff that is fast and has lots of attacks.
Fancy Charachter intensive lists don't do that great against mass imperium armies and once he has no more basiliscs his firepower isn't all that impressive anymore.

So i currently thinking about buying a Termit and Assault Dread Claw, but are they better than the standart Rhinos and Landraider?
Since the start of the edition i tried the assault dread claw, it were a cool tool of destruction and transportation.
But then i tried my predators as rhinos and recognised that they are great for malstream missons.
so what is your opinion is it better to cut the little rhinos and get one big smash in to the face of the enemy.




So this is my standard 2 battalions world eater list:

Legion: World Eaters

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: 3. Unholy Fortitude, Bolt pistol, Brass Collar of Borghaster, Mark of Khorne, Power maul, Warlord

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 71pts]: Chainaxe, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 71pts]: Chainaxe, Chainsword, Mark of Khorne

Warpsmith [5 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 52pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 171pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 171pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 171pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [5 PL, 85pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainaxe, Chainsword
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [5 PL, 85pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainaxe, Chainsword
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

+ Elites +

Helbrute [7 PL, 114pts]: Multi-melta, No Chaos Mark
. Helbrute fist: Combi-bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Land Raider [19 PL, 305pts]: Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, Mark of Khorne, Twin heavy bolter, 2x Twin lascannon

Defiler [11 PL, 160pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark, Reaper autocannon, Twin heavy flamer

+ Flyer +

Heldrake [10 PL, 167pts]: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws, No Chaos Mark

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, Mark of Khorne

++ Total: [119 PL, 1999pts] ++

Anything is better than the Land Raider because a single dude charging it stops it from firing or moving forward.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anything is better than the Land Raider because a single dude charging it stops it from firing or moving forward.

My list is all about berzerkes so i would be happy if he comes to me, but yeah if you just have a landraider in the end and he want stop tying it up you are pretty fethed...

Having been giving a lot of thought to screens and the new beta bolter rule. Would love to get some other perspectives.

Meatshields are a big part of my game, they are there to get screen, fall back from combat, and die. I'm really torn between Cultists and R&H for this purpose. The two variants I've been using are:

R&H - 2 Renegade Commanders and 3 Militia Squads with a mortar each. 38 models total.

Cultists - 2 20 man Cultist squads, 40 models total.

The trade offs are between Legion traits / Stratagems for cultists over the extra 5 CP you get with another detachment (not to mention the addition characters.) Say what you want about Tide of Traitors / auras / leadership buffs, I'm not convinced they matter as much for 10 - 20 man units of Cultists. Would love to know what other people think.

With regards to the beta bolter rule, double combi-bolter Rhinos have been getting some work done for me. Is anyone else using them? 8 bolter shots at 24 inches per model is useful against light infantry and for picking a wound or two off anything else. More importantly, it's low on the target priority list, I've had a few games where opponents never got around to shooting at them.

Skullphoquer wrote:
So i currently thinking about buying a Termit and Assault Dread Claw, but are they better than the standart Rhinos and Landraider?
Since the start of the edition i tried the assault dread claw, it were a cool tool of destruction and transportation.
But then i tried my predators as rhinos and recognised that they are great for malstream missons.
so what is your opinion is it better to cut the little rhinos and get one big smash in to the face of the enemy.

I've been using a Termite Drill full of berserkers for a handful of games, and while I really like it, I'm still trying to figure out the best way to use it.
The obvious thing is to deepstrike it turn two, but with berserkers, you really want a turn two charge and even with an icon it's not a great odd. By turn 3, the game is usually decided and having assault units not chopping stuff up as fast as possible sucks. If I were deepstriking the drill, I think shooting units are a better choice, like C-Bolter Chosen, or Rubrics.
If you've got threat saturation, you can start the drill on the table and run it up. It's basically a rhino (little tougher, but slower and has no smoke launchers). I've been able to reliably get turn 2 charges (though I play renegades) with the berserkers, which I think is much more useful than deepstriking it. Then the drill itself is a monster in combat, and absolutely devours characters.

The Claw I think loses out on pretty much all counts to the drill and rhinos, EXCEPT that you can stick a contemptor in it. Then you have a double whammy dreadnought rocket. Just save that command re roll if the claw blows up and takes the dread with it.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Having been giving a lot of thought to screens and the new beta bolter rule. Would love to get some other perspectives.

Meatshields are a big part of my game, they are there to get screen, fall back from combat, and die. I'm really torn between Cultists and R&H for this purpose. The two variants I've been using are:

R&H - 2 Renegade Commanders and 3 Militia Squads with a mortar each. 38 models total.

Cultists - 2 20 man Cultist squads, 40 models total.

The trade offs are between Legion traits / Stratagems for cultists over the extra 5 CP you get with another detachment (not to mention the addition characters.) Say what you want about Tide of Traitors / auras / leadership buffs, I'm not convinced they matter as much for 10 - 20 man units of Cultists. Would love to know what other people think.

With regards to the beta bolter rule, double combi-bolter Rhinos have been getting some work done for me. Is anyone else using them? 8 bolter shots at 24 inches per model is useful against light infantry and for picking a wound or two off anything else. More importantly, it's low on the target priority list, I've had a few games where opponents never got around to shooting at them.

let me get this straight, you are using 3x12 militia with an mortar each.

I personally don't think cultists are worth it compared to chaff, if your intention is to screen objective camp and die for them.

For the 2 x20 cultists you can literally field a whole battalion in renegades, and throw in some equipment if you so wish.

However the cultists blob shenanigans with tide of traitors + cacophony on a fresh 40 man blob is still one of the better surpises we atm can pull.

In regards to the rhino, it kind of made the havoc launcher obsolete.
Kind off, frankly the havoc launcher could really need a boost, and or a rhino variant that loses some transport capacity but get's to mount a bigger variant of it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

In regards to the rhino, it kind of made the havoc launcher obsolete.
Kind off, frankly the havoc launcher could really need a boost, and or a rhino variant that loses some transport capacity but get's to mount a bigger variant of it.

Eh, i have mixed feelings about the Havoc Launcher. Remember CA dropped its price down to 5 points, and Havoc Launchers don't usually take up a hardpoint on Chaos Vehicles (including Rhinos). So there is nothing stopping you from running a Rhino with 2 Combi-Bolters and a Havoc Launcher. The Havoc Launcher isn't great in itself, but for 5 points it adds a bit more small arms dakka. Honestly for what its worth i kind of like the Havoc Launcher, the only change I would make to the Havoc Laucher would be to let it ignore line of sight. Its still only available on vehicles, and its profile isn't that versatile. So letting it ignore LOS wouldn't be the biggest buff in the world.

I think Havoc is great for its current price. At 48" its got some MEATY threat range, and strength 5 makes it pretty ok.

 akaean wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

In regards to the rhino, it kind of made the havoc launcher obsolete.
Kind off, frankly the havoc launcher could really need a boost, and or a rhino variant that loses some transport capacity but get's to mount a bigger variant of it.

Eh, i have mixed feelings about the Havoc Launcher. Remember CA dropped its price down to 5 points, and Havoc Launchers don't usually take up a hardpoint on Chaos Vehicles (including Rhinos). So there is nothing stopping you from running a Rhino with 2 Combi-Bolters and a Havoc Launcher. The Havoc Launcher isn't great in itself, but for 5 points it adds a bit more small arms dakka. Honestly for what its worth i kind of like the Havoc Launcher, the only change I would make to the Havoc Laucher would be to let it ignore line of sight. Its still only available on vehicles, and its profile isn't that versatile. So letting it ignore LOS wouldn't be the biggest buff in the world.

79 points for 8 S4 and 3.5 S5 shots on a platform as durable as the Rhino isn't exactly a bad deal.

Not a big change but isnt a havoc launcher 6 points not 5?

Hey guys I've been wanting to build a small halfway decent CSM alpha legion army, anyone know some good sources to read about how to play them?

Plan is to use mostly B@C stuff with cultists and anything else I can find that doesn't look super demony. Already aware that's probably not the best but that's fine. Figured I could build around a core of cultists and have the marines fill specialist roles, so lots of stuff like chosen, havocs, terminators, etc. With any luck the cultists would help take the pressure off them since I'm sure baseline CSM troop squads aren't very good. Basically paint them heresy colors and play it as "we're totally loyal guys, no chaos here" and run no daemon units. Or at least daemon units that can't be played off as a loyalist equivalent.

Does that sound like a solid enough plan for a casual list?

Well, make sure you emphasize yours is a fluffy casual list, so that people don't bring competitive lists against you and you should be fine.

Bring lots of Havocs and set them up in ruins and cover to get maximum benefit from your Alpha legion trait. Start with that as a baseline. Remember to have fun.

Okay, looking for feedback.

I’m running 3 Helbrutes in a renegade vanguard detachment along with 2 contemptors. Contemptors are dual claw with Soulburner s riding in Dreadclaws. HQ is a jump pack lord. Running a battalion of world eaters, 3x Berzerkers in rhinos with a dark Apostle and exalted champ. Axes/swords on Berzerkers, Fist and chainsword on champs.

Would you run the Helbrutes with dual scourges for the crap load of S8 attacks (11, I think), or would you run them with dual Fists to have fewer (5?) S12 attacks with some combi bolters?

The dual scourge brutes have much more versatility with S8, having the ability to take on </-T7 vehicles and monsters and ></-T5 troops pretty well. They also eat up something like 120 extra points over the fists. The fists are 2 strength shy of wounding T7 on 2’s, so unless the target is T8 the wound roll will be no different. Of course, -1 AP and +1 damage are both perks for the fists.

Hallowed mathhammer says about 3.7 wounds inflicted on T8 with scourges and about 2.2 with fists. Against 3+ saves that would translate to 4.9 damage. Fists would cause about 5.5 damage. Against T7 3+ scourges would cause roughly 6.5 wounds while fists would again cause about 5.5 damage.

Against hordes or even just 10-man infantry squads the scourges will do serious work, while the fists will only crush a couple of weaklings per fight or so. Unless the target has 3 wound models the extra damage won’t really matter in this case.

Still, 120 points would allow 2 additional objective secured units of 10 cultists along with 24 combi-bolter shots per turn (that they’re all alive), both of which have value. 8 points left to do whatever with. The rhinos each have 2 combi bolters, so combined firepower would be 48 bolter shots per turn in this scenario. That could be enough to punch a hole in a screen or threaten snipers in cover, whereas the 24 from just the rhinos may not cut it.

What do you think?

Edit: Oops, my math was wrong, I would only have 90 additional points with dual fists. So not quite as useful as 120, but still decent. 1 fewer unit of cultists, let’s say.

Keep helbrutes cheap, I say. Double fists with combibolters go a long way. They're good soldier-walkers that can lift a lot, but at the end of the day 8 wounds with no invul is pretty brittle. Your berserkers (and combibolters) should be clearing chaff just fine, and your walkers should be smacking around tougher targets.

One Scourge with Reaper, Plasma or heavy Bolter is cheap and threatens many things. Two scourges are too expensive I'd say, as Helbrutes aren't very durable and with that damage Output there's nothing you can distract your opponent with.

I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.

The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.

Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.

Sounds like a plan!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do you guys handle imperium players who use mortars and Basilisks. They get hidden out of sight and get to shoot at you for multiple turns. Its actually ridiculously efficient. Plus I can't really get into a shooting war with something I can't even see.

And while melee seems to be the way to go. Imperium has lots of points left to spend on bubble wrap and melee stuff too because its not like a few mortar teams and Basilisks are that expensive.

Meant to respond to this a while ago.

Consider using Hellforged Scorpius tanks to clean out Basilisks and mortars. They are my go-to for games against Guard.

You don't need LOS to target anything and you get a ton of shots when you stay still. But them next to Abaddon for superior accuracy.

 akaean wrote:
I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.

The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.

Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.

How is scourge too expensive?
A scourge/reaper brute is 1 point over a double fist brute with combies.

Is only to expensive if you try having both weapons, rather than pick one or the other.