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 Glorious Hair Boi wrote:

 Ap0k wrote:

Spoiler:

 Glorious Hair Boi wrote:
Emperor's Children 2k points. No Cultists, for thematic reasons.



++Spearhead Detachment, Emperor's Children++

Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, 2x Talon, Intoxicating Elixir, Stimulated by Pain (Warlord)

Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon Array
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons
5x Havocs, 4 w/ Autocannons



++Battalion, Emperor's Children++

Lucius
Sorcerer, Jump Pack, Warptime, Prescience


5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster
5x Noise Marines, Sonic Blasters, 1x Blastmaster


Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter
Rhino, 2x Combi-Bolter





Light on CP, but all it really needs to do is double shoot a Havoc unit every turn. Lucius is a fun lord who is nice and cheap for what he does. List feels like it might be up for a struggle against any high body count army, especially one like Orks, though Legion trait and Lucius may help out a little with that. I'm wondering if I might be better off just dropping the Havocs and the Sorceror for 3 more squads worth of Noise Marines honestly.

I assume you don't play against any Dark Eldar opponents, because if you do, you're probably going to lose 2 squads of noise marines minimum per turn, every turn, just from the disintegrator volleys, while something like wyches/bikes/grotesques tie up your leviathans from turn 2 onwards due to your inability to screen them effectively.

My experience is that disintegrators are effective against everything marines, the Rhino's will help a little in this regard, and at least Noise Marines will be trading up with them as they go down. Other than Storm Shields which aren't even on the menu for us, I can't think of any Marines who would be positioned better against what you describe than Noisey bois. Its just the nature of the army I think, not much point in playing EC if you aren't taking any Marines. It's like saying to a custodes player, "you know that those mortal wounds are going to hurt right?". There isnt really a response to that other than "Yeah... but I still want to play custodes."

This doesn't get discussed enough. My local meta is infested with Dark Eldar lists, most of which max out on Ravagers / Raiders, Venoms, Razorwings and / or Voidravens.

After some attempts with World Eaters, I've settled on an Emperor's Children list for games against Drukhari. While my list is still in playtesting mode, what I'm finding is speed and fight-first tricks definitely help. Here's what I've been using, comments on how it works down below.

CSM Batallion

- DP with Wings
- CL in Terminator Armor
- 4x 5-man Noise Marines
- 2x 5-man Chosen
- 2x Bikers with 1 plasma gun
- Helbrute, fist and scourge
- 3x Rhinos, double combi-bolters

CD Battalion

- 2x Enrapturess
- 3x 20-gal Daemonettes

There's a few variations I use, where I swap in Fiends, Heldrakes, and Contemptors, and where I put the DP in the CD Battalion for Locus of Swiftness. But I'm not confident enough in those units, seems like cheap troops that move fast and strike first is the best way to go.

The list starts with 13 CPs and I use 3 for Denziens of the Warp on the Daemonettes before the game begins. The Rhinos / Bikes deploy ahead of the HQs and take the majority of fire first turn. Second turn, troops deploy and I deep strike everything to tie up as much of my opponent's army as possible, shooting up everything I can't charge.

The reason this works is mostly due to the Legion Trait, Daemonic Loci and the banners on the Daemonettes. Being able to fight first is a huge advantage against Drukhari, there's been games where I tie up a whole army for a couple turns. This sets up some very powerful shooting tactics, where the NMs and Chosen are massed and able to dish out a ton of shots.

That said, one of the big problems I run into is with shooting after the third turn. Placing the NMs and Chosen is tricky. Once the Daemonettes hit the field, they tie up so much there's not as many targets to shoot at, you really need to have them in an optimal position when the Daemonettes go down. Opponents frequently fall back out of combat just out of range of the Sonic Blasters / Combi-bolters, which means they're moving again.

Another big problem has been is with the Talos / Ravagers / Flyers, I just don't have enough heavy weapons on the field to deal with them efficiently. I've been getting by with the DP but wish I had something else fast and shooty to deal with them.

Anyways, still playtesting, but would love thoughts / ideas on how to improve against Drukhari. Am under no illusion about how this would perform against Orks, IG or other armies.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 akaean wrote:
I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.

The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.

Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.

How is scourge too expensive?
A scourge/reaper brute is 1 point over a double fist brute with combies.

Is only to expensive if you try having both weapons, rather than pick one or the other.

Thats pretty much exactly why its too expensive. If your running a hellbrute for close combat with double fists vs scourge fist its a 25 pt difference. Personally I prefer the dual fist setup. Run it up as a distraction carnifex and watch the enemy pour fire into them to try and stop them. At 104 pts you get one with whatever mark you want with 5 str 12 ap-3 flat 3 dmg hits and 8 shots at 24" thanks to the new bolter rules. Damn effective use of points.

If you're Helbent on used the melee Helbrute, double fist w/ the Renegades trait is the way to go.

I used one with Double fists and one with scourge /Reaper in my last games and both did their work. Fists are better against vehicles, scourge is better against anything else. Just don't combine lascannon/CC weapon or two scourges, anything else works really and is cheap enough.

Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on

i prefer the reaper autocannon, that said i think dakka brutes are reasonable, if there is a cheap chaos lord nearby sitting all the better.

Azuza001 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 akaean wrote:
I agree with others. Generally speaking you are going to want to keep Helbrute's pretty cheap, especially melee brutes, and that is the scourge's biggest problems.

The Scourge is a great weapon. But its expensive points wise, especially after the Fist got a points decrease and the second is even cheaper. As others have said, Helbrutes are not durable and fall pretty quickly even to small arms fire. Loading up on specialist weapons to make them deal mucho damage in cqc is a dangerous proposition because its so easy to nuke them before they can get there.

Even with a pair of fists and combi bolters a Helbrute is still dangerous in close combat. It is also more dangerous in shooting, especially now thanks to the new Bolter rule. I agree with others though, getting a good ranged weapon on your Helbrute helps them contribute the whole game.

How is scourge too expensive?
A scourge/reaper brute is 1 point over a double fist brute with combies.

Is only to expensive if you try having both weapons, rather than pick one or the other.

Thats pretty much exactly why its too expensive. If your running a hellbrute for close combat with double fists vs scourge fist its a 25 pt difference. Personally I prefer the dual fist setup. Run it up as a distraction carnifex and watch the enemy pour fire into them to try and stop them. At 104 pts you get one with whatever mark you want with 5 str 12 ap-3 flat 3 dmg hits and 8 shots at 24" thanks to the new bolter rules. Damn effective use of points.

Did you even read my entire post?

You DONT use both a scourge and a fist, pick one.
A scourge with a reaper costs 1 point more than the double-fist with bolters build, and is superior when punching light targets.

You pick your targets when building the list, and both builds cost the same so its not really a contest.

I did read your entire post. You said the only way they are too expensive is if your trying to take both, which i replied is exactly why they are too expensive. Dont read subtext into it man, i was agreeing with you and going into more detail as to why its too expensive and why double fist on a melee brute works better.

Personally i love the scourge, i think its a better weapon if your only taking one melee weapon on your hellbrute. But I normally take either pure dakka brutes (twin laz / missile) or pure melee (double fist).

On a different note i also agree that renegade melee brutes are best. However you lose access to vets of the long war for the rest of the army which can be problematic in some builds.

I run black legion and while losing the ability to advance and charge sucks at least they can still put out 4 shots at 24" on the turn they advanced. I find people are not too interested in charging 80 cultists that have 3 hellbrutres in fist loadout and abaddon sitting inside them.

I suppose I should come clean as well, as a dedicated Emperor's Children player the majority of my experiences with Brutes are with the double blast master strapped onto an arm. Which likely gives me a more favorable view on Helbrutes than most other Chaos players, as the double BM is the best shooting arm available to them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on

i prefer the reaper autocannon, that said i think dakka brutes are reasonable, if there is a cheap chaos lord nearby sitting all the better.

With those single shot weapons, I don't see much viability unless you're Black Legion and have Abigail nearby. Loyalist Scum do it so much better because Ven Dreads don't need such a big babysitter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Anybody use a twin lascannon and missile launcher brute? Only 120 points now, and if a suitably elite target wanders too close (or the units around it are shot off the board) you can hit them with four lascannons and two krak missiles for only 1CP. Worth throwing prescience on

i prefer the reaper autocannon, that said i think dakka brutes are reasonable, if there is a cheap chaos lord nearby sitting all the better.

With those single shot weapons, I don't see much viability unless you're Black Legion and have Abigail nearby. Loyalist Scum do it so much better because Ven Dreads don't need such a big babysitter.

that's why i prefer the Reaper Autocannon.

Had a fun game with my friend. To be fair, we both didn't bring super hard lists. He brought a imperium soup list with lots of Catachan conscripts and dark angels while I brought a world eaters Rhino rush zerker list with a lord of skulls and an Ahriman to cast warp time.

He had so many bodies and scouts he restricted my lord of skulls movement alot, so warptime wasn't really that useful. But he didn't have much to deal with a superheavy like a Lord of skulls. So, he opted to play the mission and ignore the LOS totally.

He won based on mission objectives but my LOS got to shine and kill a big part of his army. The carnage was unbelievable. (squads of zerkers charging into big blobs of conscripts will do that). All I had left in the end was the Lord of Skulls which he coudn't kill. While he left one and a half squad of Mortars, an astropath and a company commander when he called it because there was no way I could come back on objectives with only one model to sit on objectives.

Highlight for me was when my Lord of Skulls blew up his Dark Talon with my gorestorm cannon and killed off all 6 of his dark knights with his Hades Cannon in one turn! I didn't expect my Lord of skulls to be able to survive to the end and wreck so much havoc. It only has a 5++ invul save. (compared to IK). : )

What would be the best tactics versus Nids? Hard melee, hard ranged, hard psykers? Should I bring loads of screen?

What kind of Tyranid build is it? That'll determine what you take.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What kind of Tyranid build is it? That'll determine what you take.

NO IDEA. Probably a fairly all-rounder build.

For shooting down swarms of tyranids, noise marines would be good. Or Chosen CSM with combi bolters too. Thats 4 shots at 24 inches based on the new bolter discipline if they didn't move. (Generally tyranids will want to come at you).

I am not sure about berserkers. The carnage would be wild, but Berserkers are fragile. They are only good for one charge and then they will likely die after that. So you have to bear that in mind.

He will also likely have some big high toughness monsters that need killing too. So, either you have to bring some high strength shooting weapons or you have to bring your own melee beat sticks like Daemon Princes to handle those.

The giant monsters that aren't Hive Tyrants won't have an Invul either, so you can usually make good use of the multi-damage weapons we have available.

No chatter about Shadowspear reveals?

I already have 20 possessed and I'm really looking forward to seeing what they get out of the box. Maybe WB might get a formation to take them as troops again. Sick of cultists.

Not sure what role that venomthing will fill. So what if summoning is easier? Looks cool though.

Sweet new oblits. I am in the middle of converting some aggressors to use at my FLGS limited tourneys, so I hope their profile and base size isn't too different. I'm not sure how they'll rule on them being set to old oblit size instead of centurion size.

Love the new primaris Lt.

I love the new models but until we know more there isnt a lot to say. I am hoping a new codex drops at the same time, that would be sweet. But that falls into wishful thinking and not tactics.

Got a doubles tournament coming up next week, i am teaming up with a tau player. Was thinking of using the following.

Abaddon
Sorcerer w/ mark of slaanesh, 5+++ power, warptime

40 cultists
40 cultists
20 marines w/ mark of slaanesh.

Idea is 80 cultists hang with abby and keep a huge bubble of nope up around the tau. Then i can send the 20 marines up, then warp time them again to get into position, and give them the 5+++. Turn 2 there should still be enough left that they will be effective at obj taking and putting preassure on the enemy (using let the galaxy burn for 1cp and giving them full rerolls to hit for maximum effectiveness). No real anti tank of course (other than vets of the long war strat) but there is 1000 pts of tau that will be coming as well that can cover that if need be.

Azuza001 wrote:
I love the new models but until we know more there isnt a lot to say. I am hoping a new codex drops at the same time, that would be sweet. But that falls into wishful thinking and not tactics.

Got a doubles tournament coming up next week, i am teaming up with a tau player. Was thinking of using the following.

Abaddon
Sorcerer w/ mark of slaanesh, 5+++ power, warptime

40 cultists
40 cultists
20 marines w/ mark of slaanesh.

Idea is 80 cultists hang with abby and keep a huge bubble of nope up around the tau. Then i can send the 20 marines up, then warp time them again to get into position, and give them the 5+++. Turn 2 there should still be enough left that they will be effective at obj taking and putting preassure on the enemy (using let the galaxy burn for 1cp and giving them full rerolls to hit for maximum effectiveness). No real anti tank of course (other than vets of the long war strat) but there is 1000 pts of tau that will be coming as well that can cover that if need be.

Why 20 csm?

Wouldn't obliterators be more usefull?
Havocs with autocannons?

Granted i do see the point in it, but I feel like they cost you points that could be used more effectively elsewhere.

He probably needs troops for the battalion. Idk about 20 marines though another 40 cultists might be more effective.

Could always bring EC noise bois or WE berzerkers and not worry about the BL legion trait too.

Has to be black legion for abaddon. And i need abaddon for moral ignore, cultists are a huge pain to remove with moral not an issue.

Finally for the bl chaos marines the strat let the galaxy burns gives full rerolls onlu to black legion chaos marines, any other option like havocs or oblits just get reroll 1's (which are not bad).

But i hear what you guys are saying. Things i need to think about. Thanks.

Id personally take havocs or oblits over the marines EVEN WITH galaxy burns. Slaaneshi oblits can put out some serious firepower for the same cost.

If you want to take a Heretac horde and Abaddon, LtGb feels like total redundancy. I mean, that kind of unit, you want it to stay within his fearless buff, which isn’t prevented at all by the Cultists’ need to keep someone within the Warmaster’s shouting range given how long a conga line they can make. So, it’s likely they’re *already* rerolling all hits.

I agree with others that it’s a suboptimal list, but it is characterful and I play Word Bearers so I get fluff first, efficiency second. I’ve tried a similar Heretac horde myself, buffed by a Dark Apostle, and it wasn’t *terrible*. Got some wins by being a wild card build people weren’t ready for.

The idea is abandon and the cultists will be in one location and the sorcerer and 20 marines in another. Ltgb gives them full rerolls without having to be chained to abby and moral isnt an issue because i can always pop the moral strat to autopass. Put mos on the marines with the sorcerer casting delightful agonies on them and warptime to make them more resistant and mobile then pop vets of the long war and endless con for fire twice. It should be able to do some work.

That was my thought process like i said you guys have given me some stuff to think about. I dont own oblits atm because the current model is trash and the new ones will be out in a month or so hopefully.

It's occurred to me, why would you ever give bikers a pistol rather than chainsword because if you fire the pistol you can't use your combi. Is that right?

Abaddon303 wrote:
It's occurred to me, why would you ever give bikers a pistol rather than chainsword because if you fire the pistol you can't use your combi. Is that right?

Sounds about right.

I'm putting together a generic Chaos Space Marines army and I want to have Kharn in it. Would this be a good idea or not? If not, who else would make a good named character to include?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm putting together a generic Chaos Space Marines army and I want to have Kharn in it. Would this be a good idea or not? If not, who else would make a good named character to include?

Kharn's a good beatstick AND a good babysitter. Stick him next to something shooty and let it get full rerolls, then if something wants to charge it, charge him in and eat face.

He's one of the only models to offer a full reroll, but keep in mind the distance he has to be. Still cheap for babysitting Predators and Obliterators and maybe saving their asses.