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Hi guys, after looking at some of the zombiecide stuff on here (namely the review by Machu here) and I had a thought concerning kickstarter. Specifically, the way it can generate a lot of hype, but then perhaps leave the non-early-adopters feeling a little lacklustre about the 'standard' release.

Now this is NOT a bash on kickstarter or companies that fund products through it, more a musing on how it's affecting me as a purchaser.

So, taking zombicide as an example, The game looks great, reviews say likewise, it would be something I would like to own and bring to my FLGS on a Thurs night, BUT!
(and it's a big but, the kind that other brothers' can't deny)

I am somewhat put off purchasing the standard retail box, because of all the cool kickstarter-only stuff that I missed out on. For me, having neither the money nor the knowledge of the kickstarter until it was too late,I have seen all these wicked-awesome extras that I will never own (unless I want to pay exhorbitant prices on ebay) and were considerably hyped. While I am sure that the game is just as entertaining without all the bonus content, personally, because of all the kickstarter hype (and it was a lot of extra stuff) I feel like the games I play would be lacking something compared to all those that got the kickstarter. To me, it feels similar to being shown the most fantastic computer lab at a university, then being told that I will never enter it, and my course uses that room full of 15-year-old Dell laptops in the basement, you know, like 'yeah I'm doing the same thing, but it doesn't have that pizazz'

ADDITIONAL INFO:
So, this little tidbit is a late addition, but again gives me (personally at least) further justification not to purchase the game. I've had a look at the kickstarter page, and the 'abomination' level (~$100) works out at around £62 and would have got me this:

now I've done a quick google and from what I can tell, the RRP for the standard release box is ~£74.99(source and gets me this:

So, I am incredibly demotivated to drop 75 of my hard earned coins when for an extra tenner I could have effectively doubled the value (and entertainment potential) of my purchase, all because I didn't have 60 quid between april and may '12

So, I'm just wondering Dakkanauts, has anyone else had similar feelings of leaving the ice-cream shop empty handed because you would have to plump for vanilla when you wanted vanilla with sprinkles?, do you think it's an issue with kickstarter-based marketing and those who proceed down that route need to carefully balance their 'bonus content' to prevent non-kickstarter purchasers from feeling a little hard done by. Or maybe it's a reflection on the consumerist society that we are? or is it just me being a complete and total tit? (wait, don't answer that one )

Anyway, your thoughts please

 Leigen_Zero wrote:
Anyway, your thoughts please

I agree with you. I dislike companies that try to force people's hand by arbitrarily limiting the availability of their product *cough*SpaceHulk*cough*, but it's particularly bad for a game like Zombicide. First, it's a cooperative game where a single box can support a game of half a dozen players, which means it's well suited to a more natural growth of the fanbase. One guy buys the game and plays it with his mates, then his mates buy their own copies so they can play it with their mates, and so on. Limiting half the characters to the first generation buyers goes against that strategy. And second, from what I've heard the game pretty much ceases to function once you run out of zombie models, as they start taking three or four extra turns each go around. The smaller number of zombies therefore means you hit that threshold sooner, and the game is more prone to crashes.

I don't really think that this is anything to do with kickstarter specifically... You could make the same argument for someone who discovers a game a year after it has been released, who then discovers that the original release had a special limited edition version with extra stuff...

Look at any gaming companys product line

As yourself if they've EVER retired a figure or unit for a given game,

ever changed/improved (ruined) their rules

ever resulpted anything

if so don't buy into it

OK so that's an extreme view, but i'd say that's effectively what your doing.

Now if you don't feel the game as it's sold now is for you, fine, but thinking 'on no if i'd got in early i'd have had more' is a bit self defeating

 insaniak wrote:
I don't really think that this is anything to do with kickstarter specifically... You could make the same argument for someone who discovers a game a year after it has been released, who then discovers that the original release had a special limited edition version with extra stuff...

A good point, and I agree with you completely in this respect, however I think that with services such as Kickstarter, the kind of issue I describe will be a lot more prevalent, and companies, unless they carefully balance things, are going to see their 'initial' sales decline rapidly, because people will want all the cool 'kickstarter stuff' and will be looking for second-hand items (where the money doesn't go back to the company) rather than settling for that plain-old-off-the-shelf-version.

I do some what agree as I have a friend who picked this game up from the KS and im not to crazy about dropping the money not getting all the cool stuff he did. For me the kick starter craze has made me more likely to take a chance on a new game just so I dont miss out on all the stuff from the KS. Dreadbowl is a perfect example. I was and still am on the fence on if I will like the game but the KS just offered way to much stuff to pass on. I'd rather pay a little extra and get a ton of stuff on a game I might like just to chance that I do like it and if the game turns out to be something I dont like I've got a decent amount of stuff that I should be able to sell to recoup some of the loss.

I think Kickstarters work best when there is a little bit of limited edition stuff for diehard fans, but something commemorative and unnecessary, such as an alternate sculpt for a model or a signed art print. This helps to hype participation to 'real' fans. Other than that, I think everything in a game should eventually be available, but that KS participation gets you (a) more for less and/or (b) priority access.

I was sorely tempted to do the Dreadball KS, but I ultimately decided against it because of a combination of cash flow at the time and because I did not have much time for Dreadball in the next 6 or 7 months. But, I know that I can get most of the Dreadball goodies once the game has its retail release. It might cost a little bit more, but all of it will be available. Because of this, as the OP suggested, I haven't written off Dreadball in my mind. I'm simply planning on picking it up next year.

If there had been a KS exclusive team, I might have been tempted enough to pledge, but if I hadn't made that decision because at that specific time it was not feasible, I would be frustrated and if I'm honest about it I think my goodwill for Mantic would have taken a slight but appreciable hit.

To be honest I don't think it is an issue. If the additions were always going to be limited edition anyway you aren't missing out. Most of the large fantasy companies release limited edition miniatures at one time or another.

By doing it on Kickstarter it drives sales which allows them to release more stuff. Sedition Wars is a great examples of how this works. It certainly isn't for everyone but I would still purchase the game if I was interested in it even without the extra stuff.

Just my thoughts.

You also seem to be forgetting that a KS is not sure thing. The extra product is in part to compensate for long waits and the risk that the product may never be delivered. I'm in on the Reaper KS & will be getting a great discount on a pile of figures.... after I wait 6 months & hope that the finished product looks as good as the pictures.

brettz123 wrote:
To be honest I don't think it is an issue. If the additions were always going to be limited edition anyway you aren't missing out. Most of the large fantasy companies release limited edition miniatures at one time or another.

By doing it on Kickstarter it drives sales which allows them to release more stuff. Sedition Wars is a great examples of how this works. It certainly isn't for everyone but I would still purchase the game if I was interested in it even without the extra stuff.

Just my thoughts.

I can't speak for Sedition Wars as I don't have any info on it, but in regards to the additions being 'limited edition', I agree that pretty much every company out there has done something along those lines, but the difference is typically regarding the impact that the exclusive content has on the game. (In a similar vein to weeble1000 and Alexholkers' posts)

Let's go way, waaaaay back to the nineties, GW releases the LotD, along with a limited edition Sgt Centurius model (and, I suppose, you could also say this about the GD exclusive models). The model was fantastic, the rules were pretty good, but did not owning the model affect your average gamer's perception of 40K? I would probably say 'not really', it added a bonus character, but didn't chance the fundamental enterainment value of the product. Now with the zombicide kickstarter, that 'exclusive content' multiplies the entertainment value of the product by a signifcant amount (significantly more starting options, greater threats due more 'bad guys') etc.

Lets take this analogy over to video games, and take the pre-order bonuses in fallout new vegas as an example,
yes they add something, (e.g. the auto-drink canteen thing, a fancy gun), but by and large F:NV is still F:NV. However, imagine if the 'bonus content' counted for approximately half of the weapons in the game, and those who didn't pre-order would not have access to any guns except for pistols and shotguns. Suddenly, this 'exclusive' content adds a significant amount to the enjoyment of the game (considering everyone knows it's there, and wants to use it). Which, IMHO is what the 'bonus content' for Zombicide does. Again, just my humble and probably skewed opinion.

Picking up on Weeble1000s point, I think that companies need to balance that exclusive content so that while it adds to the experience, it doesn't lower the vibe for those that don't possess it.

Leigen_Zero wrote:
Lets take this analogy over to video games, and take the pre-order bonuses in fallout new vegas as an example,
yes they add something, (e.g. the auto-drink canteen thing, a fancy gun), but by and large F:NV is still F:NV. However, imagine if the 'bonus content' counted for approximately half of the weapons in the game, and those who didn't pre-order would not have access to any guns except for pistols and shotguns. Suddenly, this 'exclusive' content adds a significant amount to the enjoyment of the game (considering everyone knows it's there, and wants to use it). Which, IMHO is what the 'bonus content' for Zombicide does. Again, just my humble and probably skewed opinion.

Picking up on Weeble1000s point, I think that companies need to balance that exclusive content so that while it adds to the experience, it doesn't lower the vibe for those that don't possess it.

Disagree totally with what you're getting at re. scale of Zombicide extras - most of the extra figs were already planned as con-exclusives to accompany the convention advertising for the base game (and later for the expansion). So their limited availability is not inherent to the nature of Kickstarter - it's just making more publicly obvious what happens all the time. If anything the extra figures are *more* available than limited edition figs were in the past before KS. More people around the world can support the Kickstarter than can attend cons in a specific city in another state or country.

Secondly - In zombicide, every character card has a Blank character card on the back so anyone could create the "special" characters. All of their stats are available online - Boardgamegeek has full color pictures of all of their stat cards along with tons of custom user created cards. So all you need is a stand-in miniature which could be any of the original character miniatures, a 2-d picture of the limited ed character on a token, or stand-ee, or any appropriate miniature from your collection. Let's be honest here - at the end of the day this is a board game, not a Grand Tournament for 40k where every model must be WYSWIG and fully converted & painted. All you need is a token and a copy of the character sheet.

So really owning the "official" card and the "official" miniature is just a bonus - just bling. To go back to your video-game example, it's more like Weapon Skins - the gun is functionally the same, but people who got in early or spend a little extra time/money have a fancy-schmancy looking version of it.

Also disagree with - "everyone knows it's there" and that they are somehow missing out. A lot of people are just going to pick this up at their FLGS and be totally ignorant of the KS or the KS exclusives. Everyone else who's plugged in enough to know about the KS and hardcore gamer enough to want to use each and every special character should/would probably also know about BGG and all the options for making custom characters and if not... well you are now!

Cheers

There is a side conversation with some unsettleing discussion about CMON in another section of Dakka.

It isn't so much the issue with KS, though I still have my own basic issues with them, but your point is blaitently clear, especially with a few of the more...... beefy, for any other word for it, KS projects.

I look at it more as helping out the general hobby, and not so much worrying about trying to be a pig and trying to get as much as you can for it.

MY biggest issue that I see happening with the KS is that people are using it more as a sales ploy then actually trying to fund a specific game project. Easy way to get around the tax codes, Get a few excess stocks pushed out, and Get a few more players, I get it!!! but it still kinda feels like a slimey way that some people do business.

Yes, CMON, I am looking at you.

I do see the initial poster's point. And for Zombiecide specifically. I wasn't following Dakka or Kickstarters for awhile during the Zombiecide KS, and got back on maybe a week after it closed. I waited a little while and emailed Guillotine. Guillotine got back to me after a week or two and told me to email CMON. I emailed CMON and they told me "sorry! We can tell you when it hits retail if you like?"

So at this point, I'm a bit ambivalent about picking it up. It looks fun, but there's a lot of gaming crap I'd like to buy, and so it's nowhere near the top of the pile, residing in "maybe one day when I have nothing more pressing to buy" land, like the Horus Heresy and Chaos in the Old World boardgames.

On one had, I do understand that I missed the KS, but at the same time I'm still a bit disappointed that they told me to go buy it at retail instead of treating me like a special snowflake. So while I'm not hating on it, or personally wounded, I'm also in no rush to buy it, either.

Oh! The comparison to video/computer game DLC is a [urlhttp://au.ign.com/articles/2012/09/24/saints-row-the-third-full-package-edition-announced]really [/url]poor one.

In videogaming, if you're willing to wait a year from the initial release date, you'll get everything and more for half the initial price. An entirely different proposition to a Kickstarter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grot 6 wrote:
There is a side conversation with some unsettleing discussion about CMON in another section of Dakka.

Link?

 scipio.au wrote:

Oh! The comparison to video/computer game DLC is a [urlhttp://au.ign.com/articles/2012/09/24/saints-row-the-third-full-package-edition-announced]really [/url]poor one.

In truth, the videogame comparison was not really based on facts, but I was trying to get across a point (the fact that I chose Fallout New Vegas was just because it sprang to mind first).

 insaniak wrote:
I don't really think that this is anything to do with kickstarter specifically... You could make the same argument for someone who discovers a game a year after it has been released, who then discovers that the original release had a special limited edition version with extra stuff...

You could, and I would argue that those are stupid and demotivating as well, but it comes back to the short term profit vs long term viability argument; to my mind, it's better to have a sustainable long term build up with moderate profitability the whole way, whereas current corporate and marketing dogma has it that it's best to pull every promotional trick and tactic in the book to create one giant sales-frenzy at the launch of a product, and then either drastically scale back support or drop it altogether in order to move on to the next launch.

Limited-editions, promotional extras, Kickstarter/pre-order bonuses; they all form a key part of the latter strategy, but they're totally anathema to a sustainable system because anything but the most token bonus alienates potential customers who discover your product down the line.

 scipio.au wrote:

Oh! The comparison to video/computer game DLC is a [urlhttp://au.ign.com/articles/2012/09/24/saints-row-the-third-full-package-edition-announced]really [/url]poor one.

In videogaming, if you're willing to wait a year from the initial release date, you'll get everything and more for half the initial price. An entirely different proposition to a Kickstarter.

That is only true for some things - usually things like story expansions, map-packs etc. They get bundled into ultimate/platinum editions, game of the year editions etc. But there is a lot of content that is given only to early buyers or people dedicated to playing the game. Off the top of my head - special characters and gun skins for Gears 3 Beta testers, special characters for pre-ordering, special gun skins for playing gears 3 online in the first week, special halo skins or armor accessories for pre-ordering or for playing in special limited time events etc.

My point was that all the functional elements of the missing character or board-game component can be easily made-up or printed online and the only thing people are missing is the "bling" component - hence comparable to videogame bling like weapon skins. The OP was arguing that not having the zombicide bonus character are akin to missing a vital functional game component - they aren't.

Kickstarter: pay today, wait 3-6 months (or more), finally get a game that you paid for a long time ago and some extra stuff.

Non-Kickstarter: pay today, play today, get less stuff.

There are ups and downs to buying on kickstarter.

Biggest minus for me with Kickstarter is the long wait in some cases, as the more successful a project gets, the longer it might take for it to deliver.

The main point that alot of peope seem to miss, is that your not "buying" the game or miniatures etc. You are essentially an investor in a product launch they just happen to give it to you etc. When the OP point is true, me knowing about what could of been leaves a foul taste in just buying the game as is.

The main point is the same, kickstarter is suppose to be a way to get people to fund your project, because companies rather than people have jumped on it, that idea is starting to get lost and people feel like they are buying the items.

To further my point, if anyone cared to look deeper in to kickstarter, the companies could in theory run off produce the line and never fulfill the "promises". The contract you all agree to by funding projects in kickstarter, has wording like if the project fails we "strongly encourage" repayment of the funders. There is no teeth in the clause however. Kickstarte cant do anything about it and i dont even know if you could seek restitution or whether it wud be worth it, with court costs etc..

mindfad wrote:
The main point that alot of peope seem to miss, is that your not "buying" the game or miniatures etc. You are essentially an investor in a product launch they just happen to give it to you etc. When the OP point is true, me knowing about what could of been leaves a foul taste in just buying the game as is.

The main point is the same, kickstarter is suppose to be a way to get people to fund your project, because companies rather than people have jumped on it, that idea is starting to get lost and people feel like they are buying the items.

To further my point, if anyone cared to look deeper in to kickstarter, the companies could in theory run off produce the line and never fulfill the "promises". The contract you all agree to by funding projects in kickstarter, has wording like if the project fails we "strongly encourage" repayment of the funders. There is no teeth in the clause however. Kickstarte cant do anything about it and i dont even know if you could seek restitution or whether it wud be worth it, with court costs etc..

This is true, and while Kickstarter assumes no responsibility for whether or not you get your rewards from the kickstarter, if you try to start a second project while you still owe rewards from a previous project, you have to go through a slight appeal process. This is fairly recent, since companies like CMON or Mantic have had multiple running almost back to back.

mindfad wrote:
To further my point, if anyone cared to look deeper in to kickstarter, the companies could in theory run off produce the line and never fulfill the "promises". The contract you all agree to by funding projects in kickstarter, has wording like if the project fails we "strongly encourage" repayment of the funders. There is no teeth in the clause however. Kickstarte cant do anything about it and i dont even know if you could seek restitution or whether it wud be worth it, with court costs etc..

You probably could. While it would depend on the specific consumer protection laws that exist in New York, if it looks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, with no physical requirement that you've even looked at the Kickstarter T&C, them attempting to weasel their way around their legal obligations is unlikely to work. At best, I would expect it to protect Kickstarter itself by pointing out it just introduces the two parties.

I don't mind being the guy to break it to you, but you missed the boat.
Are you not going to buy the pair of Levi's for $45 because the $37 sale ended last week? You buy something because you want it and it's going for a fair value. < $2 a miniature isn't the worst deal I'm the world... Actually it's fair...not bad for a set of rules and toys.
There is an incentive because of the risk and timing. Buy something at Walmart you get it right there, Amazon it's three days. These people put their money out there for many months potentually with the possibilty of no return.
The real kicker is that if they didn't pony up, YOU may have not had the opportunity to b?!@¥ about them offering a bonus for helping the game become a reality.
edit: grammar

 scipio.au wrote:
I do see the initial poster's point. And for Zombiecide specifically. I wasn't following Dakka or Kickstarters for awhile during the Zombiecide KS, and got back on maybe a week after it closed. I waited a little while and emailed Guillotine. Guillotine got back to me after a week or two and told me to email CMON. I emailed CMON and they told me "sorry! We can tell you when it hits retail if you like?"

So at this point, I'm a bit ambivalent about picking it up. It looks fun, but there's a lot of gaming crap I'd like to buy, and so it's nowhere near the top of the pile, residing in "maybe one day when I have nothing more pressing to buy" land, like the Horus Heresy and Chaos in the Old World boardgames.

On one had, I do understand that I missed the KS, but at the same time I'm still a bit disappointed that they told me to go buy it at retail instead of treating me like a special snowflake. So while I'm not hating on it, or personally wounded, I'm also in no rush to buy it, either.

Oh! The comparison to video/computer game DLC is a [urlhttp://au.ign.com/articles/2012/09/24/saints-row-the-third-full-package-edition-announced]really [/url]poor one.

In videogaming, if you're willing to wait a year from the initial release date, you'll get everything and more for half the initial price. An entirely different proposition to a Kickstarter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grot 6 wrote:
There is a side conversation with some unsettleing discussion about CMON in another section of Dakka.

Link?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469131.page

 insaniak wrote:
I don't really think that this is anything to do with kickstarter specifically... You could make the same argument for someone who discovers a game a year after it has been released, who then discovers that the original release had a special limited edition version with extra stuff...

Exactly.

I've been playing a lot of a game called Avenger's Alliance (yes, it's a Facebook game. Shut up), and there are loads of characters you can get. However, there are some limited characters, and I started playing after one of the limited characters had stopped being available. I can't get that character, even though I really want her. I have another limited character that two of my friends can't get because they weren't there in time to get her.

Doesn't make me want to play the game less, or feel cheated in any way. And I don't think that Kickstarter is to blame for any of this either.

 d-usa wrote:
Kickstarter: pay today, wait 3-6 months (or more), finally get a game that you paid for a long time ago and some extra stuff.

Non-Kickstarter: pay today, play today, get less stuff.

There are ups and downs to buying on kickstarter.

Ha! How incredibly succinct!

 insaniak wrote:
I don't really think that this is anything to do with kickstarter specifically... You could make the same argument for someone who discovers a game a year after it has been released, who then discovers that the original release had a special limited edition version with extra stuff...

If you mean like a video game? Because many many videogames makes the exclusive stuff available online for a fee, and many of it is superficial like weapon skins.
The thing the OP is talking about it stuff that is limited to a small window.

So what?

I couldn't get the limited edition Ad Mech unit that GW had as part of the Skullz promotion when it was running. I had to find it at a later date second hand, and paid a pretty penny for it too. I don't begrudge GW for making it limited. What's wrong with limited promotional items? Do we complain that there's a Games Day mini? An Adepticon mini?

There is a game that I only just heard about the other day that is out of print! How dare the company stop selling something that I want just because I came to the party late!