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Hello,

I keep hearing how crap WT's are but:

The theory of having MoK on WT's Means you have 2 Specialist CCW's Giving base attacks of 2, + In Rage for 4 attacks on charge and count attack for 3 when charged, Re-Rollable wounds with lightning claws.

Unit of 5 WT's generate 20 Re-Rollable wounds with lightning claws..

anyone else find this scary?

Feel No Pain wrote:
Hello,

I keep hearing how crap WT's are but:

The theory of having MoK on WT's Means you have 2 Specialist CCW's Giving base attacks of 2, + In Rage for 4 attacks on charge and count attack for 3 when charged, Re-Rollable wounds with lightning claws.

Unit of 5 WT's generate 20 Re-Rollable wounds with lightning claws..

anyone else find this scary?

No because they don't auto hit so there aren't 20 re-rollable wounds.
possibly 10 rerollable wounds after impact hits/overwatch

It's only a 5 man squad so luck can shoot 1-2 down easy.

You'll probably trade at best with any standard troop unit, with exceptions like Kroot

Its harsh (and I assume expensive?) but given that many wounds it will inflict you will wipe out most units (bar termies but would you really waste them on termies?) in one round leaving you sitting pretty out in the open, so if you choose your target right quite scary but the next turn which would be your opponents would see your scary squad shot to pieces.

Depends on the cost for what would be a throw away unit, I feel the same way about vanguard vets

Most combat units have the problem of tearing through a unit to be faced with PG / Melta (or equivalent shooting).

WIth the WT you are getting the demon inv save against the heavier dakka, against power armour they out class the equivalent points of terminators, probably too expensive vs 5+ saves where the standard raptor would get the edge (cheaper cost).

I think the WT are certainly hard to get the most out of and you need to pick the right opponent to justify them being in a force. The raptors are easier to fit into a force. Both these units and the bikes are suffering at the moment as people are obsessed with having two heldrakes (per 1500pts) and by the time they have kitted out even more anti-air, fire power and bland troop choices that's the army complete.

MoN works a lot better for them, making them more durable and avoiding loosing too many by being rapid fired

MoK is a good option, since they don't have grenades the MoS does nothing, and MoK protects them from being charged, since counter attack is present.

With this setup, using the MoK, deep striking in two squads of 5, or one squad, for possible blind, makes the unit quite cheap for the power it can put out. MoN may lessen damage taken, and MoT may incease their ability to hang around, but MoK is a very viable option.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
MoN works a lot better for them, making them more durable and avoiding loosing too many by being rapid fired

Yeah, go nurgle or tzeench.
10-15 lightning claw attacks is plenty good. Just beef up the survivability to keep those around longer.
T5 helps against dakka and power weapons, where as 4++ helps against plasma/melta and power weapons.

-Matt

180pts for 5 with MoK

The problem is their price and their fragility. They are only striking at init 4 and have no grenades. If you lose say one to overwatch and two before your strike due to assaulting someone in cover....

and that isn't even counting the two turns someone will have to shoot you because your deployment options are pretty bad.

Kevlar wrote:
The problem is their price and their fragility. They are only striking at init 4 and have no grenades. If you lose say one to overwatch and two before your strike due to assaulting someone in cover....

and that isn't even counting the two turns someone will have to shoot you because your deployment options are pretty bad.

sadly this

they are very very good at killing Meq in the open getting the charge. The problem is really they are too good at it as they will finish the combat in one turn and then get shot up again. All of the marks can work but . VotlW makes it even worse.

Kevlar wrote:
The problem is their price and their fragility. They are only striking at init 4 and have no grenades. If you lose say one to overwatch and two before your strike due to assaulting someone in cover....

and that isn't even counting the two turns someone will have to shoot you because your deployment options are pretty bad.

2 turns? Their is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be assaulting the turn after they arrive. Oh, and you should DS them everytime, no question. Also, you're really describing the worse case scenario, if they are assaulting a shooty unit in cover, like say some long fangs, they are unlikely to lose more then a single base before they strike and then will still have more then enough damage propensity to clean the squad out pretty fast.

Plus, they arrive at turn 2 at the earliest. If you are not already applying pressure from multiple angles the turn they arrive you are playing your Chaos wrong.

That being said, I agree MoN or MoT are the best way to run them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
The problem is their price and their fragility. They are only striking at init 4 and have no grenades. If you lose say one to overwatch and two before your strike due to assaulting someone in cover....

and that isn't even counting the two turns someone will have to shoot you because your deployment options are pretty bad.

2 turns? Their is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be assaulting the turn after they arrive. Oh, and you should DS them everytime, no question. Also, you're really describing the worse case scenario, if they are assaulting a shooty unit in cover, like say some long fangs, they are unlikely to lose more then a single base before they strike and then will still have more then enough damage propensity to clean the squad out pretty fast.

Even if they arrive behind a squad of longfangs by deepstrike, and only that single squad of longfangs has range to them (yeah right, there are two more LF squads right next to that one). You are still eating 4x krak missiles + whatever the leader has, plus another 4x krak missiles in overwatch, then all the longfangs and the leader get to strike before you do, with counterattack no less. Oh and the longfangs are much, much cheaper than your squad they just wiped out.

Kevlar wrote:

Even if they arrive behind a squad of longfangs by deepstrike, and only that single squad of longfangs has range to them (yeah right, there are two more LF squads right next to that one). You are still eating 4x krak missiles + whatever the leader has, plus another 4x krak missiles in overwatch, then all the longfangs and the leader get to strike before you do, with counterattack no less. Oh and the longfangs are much, much cheaper than your squad they just wiped out.

Sadlly, this. Blind w/i 6" is not a good enough defensive mechanism, since almost everyone gas a decent chance to just ignore it and blow them away. Add that to the fact that everything else that isn't w/i 6" can just shoot them, and very quickly 3+/5++ just isn't enough.

If I was going to use them, I would probably start them on the board and take my chances hoofing it, hopefully getting behind some ruins. At least that way they'll have a chance to assault something before getting shot off the board.

Even if they arrive behind a squad of longfangs by deepstrike, and only that single squad of longfangs has range to them (yeah right, there are two more LF squads right next to that one). You are still eating 4x krak missiles + whatever the leader has, plus another 4x krak missiles in overwatch, then all the longfangs and the leader get to strike before you do, with counterattack no less. Oh and the longfangs are much, much cheaper than your squad they just wiped out.

You mean you're going to shoot all your krak missles at warp talons instead of tanks? Awesome. Now, lets check your math:

4 kraks kill 4x(2/3)(5/6)(2/3)= 1.5 (obviously less if they have MoT). Overwatch kills 4×(1÷6)(5÷6)(2÷3) = .37 and, assuming Counter Attack goes off, it will kill 10(1÷2)(1÷2)(1÷3) = .83 So add that up and round up you get 3.

The Talons strike back and kill 6(1/2)(1/2 with ReRolls)= 2.25 , and strike at the same time the next round of combat and kill 4(1/2)(1/2 with ReRolls)=1.5, so 4 total. The second round of CC the LF's kill (assuming they only lost 2 in the first) 3(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=.25...so probably not even one guy. Really, the Warp Talons should win with 2 models left. And keep in mind these are unmarked WT's, which aren't a whole lot more expensive then a group of Long Fangs. SO your Long Fangs are dead and had to spend their last round of shooting targeting a non-tank, and the Warp Talons live to threaten another target. This is all assuming that the Warp Talons don't get a good DS and get their special move off.

So really, the unit is much more balanced then people are giving it credit for. A pair of Lightining Claws, a 5++, and a jump pack at 30 points per is a steal.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

So really, the unit is much more balanced then people are giving it credit for. A pair of Lightining Claws, a 5++, and a jump pack at 30 points per is a steal.

No, really they aren't. Getting shot by a single unit that clocks in much cheaper than them will decimate the squad. Imagine if someone shot them with a unit that cost about equal points to them, or heaven forbid another nearby unit. Or something that can reliably take out units that are bunched up in a deep strike formation, like say plasma cannons.

No, really they aren't. Getting shot by a single unit that clocks in much cheaper than them will decimate the squad. Imagine if someone shot them with a unit that cost about equal points to them, or heaven forbid another nearby unit. Or something that can reliably take out units that are bunched up in a deep strike formation, like say plasma cannons.

You obviously never use deep strike, because with Run the last thing you suggested basically never happens. And as I demonstrated, your assertion that "Getting shot by a single unit that clocks in much cheaper than them will decimate the squad" is quite simple false.

To me it seems as though too much emphasis is being placed on trying to get the Warpflame Strike. Considering their 12" move and reliable charge range (with JP) I think it's better to look at deepstriking them into a position where they are as least exposed as possible while being close enough to their target. If there are LoS blocking terrain pieces, you can likely move right over them in your following turn.

If you can use them to force the enemy to move their Longfangs / Predators / w'ever to stay out of their range, you're also saving the rest of your army from those units full shooting abilities.