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Why is it in 40k that when a suit of armor or such is unreasonably ancient it seems to become more powerful with age. These are weapons of metal...not wine it shouldn't get better with age, just becuase a boltgun has been in a locker for 5k years doesn't mean it should be better than one fresh of the forge... anyone have some fluff as to why this is?

The same reason Techpriests spend hours oiling up a screw whilst recanting the same prayer over and over again, then believing in a Machine-God when they push the START button on the Titan.

It's 40k.

Which raises another question. Is the Machine Spirit real or is it just a hyper advanced form of AI that has taken a god like role?


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Which raises another question. Is the Machine Spirit real or is it just a hyper advanced form of AI that has taken a god like role?

I think it's because the imperiums is losing the technology to make weapons, so the ones made in the past are of a better quality.

I would assume that billions of weapons and suits of armor are made all the time and if some of them have somehow managed to survive 5 thousand years of combat then it must be special. something that can't be easily replicated in its design, materials or with how the wielder use it.

reminds me of Al Rahem's Claw of the Desert Tigers. it wasn't any better than any other sword but it had a reputation that made it cause fear. now it causes instant death...

I think the 'older is better' is a concept used to emphasize the decay of science and technology which works well for the most part with such relics as Artificer Armor being of better make and quality to protect its user.
Also Artificer armor is constantly changed and adapted for use by hundreds of different artificers meaning it does essentially have numerous other 'extras' compared to regular Power Armor. It gets better with age because its maintained and improved over time.

Lexicanum wrote:The Dark Age of Technology was the zenith of mankind's scientific knowledge and technological power. Even millennia later mankind has not been able to equal or regain their former height of achievement. This age was long before the Age of the Imperium and knowledge of this time period is now incredibly sparse, and many "facts" about it are mere legend. It was the highest point of scientific achievement accomplished by humanity.

Although a "golden age" in terms of scientific achievement, because of the catastrophic effects of the following Age of Strife, mankind has since come to regard scientific knowledge as abhorrent and dangerous. The Age of Technology is thus considered "dark" in the Imperium's current age. It is also considered a dark age because mankind in the Age of Technology had come to worship science as God.

In short, as the Imperium wears on, their knowledge/ability to reproduce weapons and technology on a par with what they used to be able to make is lessened and lessened, leading to the newer producs being inferior. Think of it like Tolkien's legendarium, where the Eldar and their decendents (Noldor) where the greatest and most powerful Elves who created the most powerful weapons and sang the greatest songs and built the greatest realms etc, etc... that by the time we reach the end of the Third Age of Man, anything from that era is a sacred relic against which contemporary equivalents pale.

Artificer armor isn't always an older suit.

It actually refers to a suit of PA thats been made to the highest quality. PA is actually improving over the years. The current MKVIII is way WAY more advanced then what was around during the Heresy.

A suit of Artificer armor tends to be kept around as a chapter relic, thus it tends to be quite old. Although new suits can be made. Just like with TDA.

Artificer armour and weaponry are made over a long time as a act of devotion by the smith and involve a greater level of skill and effort.

This can also explain why relic items are better than standard gear as it is heavily maintained as a point of hounor.

Also, In Salamander, The new captain gets a fresh brand new Artificer armor. I think artificer is more of a brander rather then a description. Such as the Ceramite plates are made in such a way to be near impenetrable. The servos are more reactive and such.

I think it's due to the fluff in wh40k wherein older weapons are better made/designed than the recent ones being produced.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Also, In Salamander, The new captain gets a fresh brand new Artificer armor. I think artificer is more of a brander rather then a description. Such as the Ceramite plates are made in such a way to be near impenetrable. The servos are more reactive and such.

This.

Artificer Armour isn't necessarily old, it's just better made. While the 'old is better' theme lends itself to Artificer being old, it's not always the case. For example, the Salamanders, like the example above, have a much higher amount of 'artificer' armour, as in 'armour that's made well', because they're basically a legion of blacksmiths. They have a much higher quantity of 'master crafted' weapons as well, and again, this isn't necessarily using the 'old is better' theme. They know how to make their weapons and armour, and make them as well as the Imperium used to.

You're talking about 2 diffefrent things there though. One is that older weapons and equipment are revered and the other is that artificier armour is better than normal power armour. The first is because the Imperium believes that technology has its own spirit and needs to be looked after and honoured to work properly. If some equipment has done a lot of good things in its time, so much the better and it gets recognized for that. As otherwise noted, artificier armour is just really high quality power armour that is closely maintained and upgraded by the most talented techmarines. It could be new, contain some new parts, or be an ancient relic of the chapter.

We're in the middle of a dark age. Think about how much better Roman metallurgy was than that found in southern Europe in the year 600 AD, then amplify that to take into account the sheer over-the-top-ness of 40k.

 Rysgame wrote:
Why is it in 40k that when a suit of armor or such is unreasonably ancient it seems to become more powerful with age. These are weapons of metal...not wine it shouldn't get better with age, just becuase a boltgun has been in a locker for 5k years doesn't mean it should be better than one fresh of the forge... anyone have some fluff as to why this is?

Consider what 40k is first.

It isn't a straight Science Fiction. It's Space Fantasy, for the most part.

Think of Fantasy, of the Ents, of Gandalf, of the elves, or ancient swords like Narsil in Lord of the Rings. Consider DnD, where ancient dragons or liches (Compare to Necrons) are the most powerful.

It is a common trope in Fantasy for older materials and beings to be more powerful than newer ones.

 Rysgame wrote:
Which raises another question. Is the Machine Spirit real or is it just a hyper advanced form of AI that has taken a god like role?

If you mean the Omnissiah then no, he's not 'real'.

If you mean smaller Machine Spirits then it varies. Machine Spirit seems to be the Mechanicus' term for not quite ai intelligences- like a titan or land raider's very sophisticated intelligence systems to a missile's guidance system. It's also a spiritual term where every piece of machine has a machine spirit whether it incorporates a computer or not.

The Omnissiah is in a way "real", he is visualised as the God Emperor, and his "power" is drawn from the Void Dragon.

In 40k the primary driving force for anything spectacular is belief, and when you believe enough(sisters of battle) amazing things happen, so the omnissiah could exist as a mirror of mankind's reverence for technology and their belief in a higher power, therefore, there IS a higher power.

As to artificer armor, much like older patterns of armor and weapons being of a much more advanced and critical design, than the newer specs, since all of that knowledge and tachno-blueprints have been lost over 10 thousand years.

Look at MKVI armor vs MKVIII, the mark 8 errant pattern should by all intents and purposes be better than the mark 6 and even mark 4 patterns, but because of the information technology and soft/hardware available, only a slightly comparable knockoff is the result.

MKIV and MKVI were and still are the most advanced suits ever created in 40k fluff, same with MKII pattern bolters, they were ALL hand crafted, all of them, same with the MKII and MKIII power armor.

The Imperium and the Techpriests have lost a lot of their greatest lore and technological secrets. It's not that everything old is great. A lasgun from the Heresy (if it survived) would just be a lasgun. An Emperor-class Titan would be lovingly restored and revered, partially because nobody knows how to make the damn things anymore. The only thing to do is constantly repair and maintain the ones you have, and maybe even find a lost one on some long-lost world, because there won't be a new one. Ever.

As for machine spirits, there are two things sort of covered there. One is the 'intelligence' systems, as mentioned, in things like titans and land raiders. But the same thing is used to discuss the basic function of more mundane technology. A tech-priest wouldn't describe, say, a gun firing in terms of moving parts that ignite the charge; they would talk about the trigger as a way to compel the gun's machine-spirit to fire. If it doesn't, it's because you've offended the spirit by neglecting the rituals of maintenance and upkeep, as prescribed in the sacred texts.

ARtificer armor if i recall is better then current armors because it was developed at a time where technology was greater.

after the regression artificer armor was and still is better then current armor due to its higher tech level, durability and so on.


on the note of refurbishing stuff like titans.
They still build titans. just takes a lifetime and the production numbers are like maybe.... 2 a decade for a forgeworld? maybe for the little titans even. the bigger ones... well... your probly not going to be alive (nor are your children or their children) by the time another Warlord is built.
Its much easier to refurbish a titan that is for the most part already built for you you just gotta replace the arm or leg motor or something.

A machine spirit is a vauge term that covers the most advanced AI's like in Titans or other large war machines to some perceived entity that controls everything from the mechanical penicl to the coffee maker. Making it happy supposedly makes the machine work, or at least work properly

I like to think that since Horus and his buddies decided to take all their teenage angst out on daddy, the Imperium has now fallen to a major supply and demand issue - they are fighting to many wars with little to no break or respite between them. The demand is too high and supply is low - there is no time to properly make grand works of art, the supply needs to be instant to when it's demanded which means in turn the quality goes way down the tube in order to meet the demand.

So you'll find equipment that was made when the Imperium was not constantly being constantly attacked and raided is of a much higher standard which means the user typically can kick xenos and heretic butt to a greater level.

In a perfect world for example - the IG trooper would be armed a little better then a flashlight and some cardboard to use. (hopefully)


However I'll think you'll find that this whole "aged" vs "new" concept is to aid the whole grimdark setting of 40k. Having a bunch of clean and awesome power armor suits walking around is considerably less depressing then what we currently have. Also I guess it's also a metaphor for the current sticky situation humanity has gotten itself into

Either that or the adapteus mechanicus let an Ogryn become head of the R&D department

Artificer simply means "well made." It is not synonymous with the word "relic," though suits of armor and weapons of the highest quality are held in high regard by the Chapters they belong to and are kept for generations within their armories or passed down depending on tradition. The word "relic" in this case does not always mean "old," but instead means "of great importance."

Okay, I can see that point the older armor and weapons are more lovingly crafted. But as far as the machine spirit goes... Is it just the fact that noone actually understands basic mechanics or physics, such as how a firearm works. Therefore it must be a higher power controlling it? I.E. You haven't performed rituals of maintenance and cleaning. (Breaking the weapon down and cleaning as I would my rifle in the military.) Naturally the weapon won't fire. Though they see it as the Machine Spirit inside is angry vice, "Oh, I just forgot to clean out the loading mechanism" Am I on to something or am I completely off base?

The Imperium's attitude towards technology is a combination of mystery cult and animism. People know technology was crafted by people but how to do so or how it works is a mystery (in the religious sense), which is revealed only to those initiated into the cult (the Adeptus Mechanicus). Thus the knowledge is restricted and hoarded, rendering it vulnerable to loss if the people that know it die without passing on their knowledge.

It is animistic in that items of technology are believed to have a machine spirit, which must be appeased by various rites, which may involve actual maintenance as we understand it or purely religious rites like praying over it and swinging burning incense censers. For complex items that have computers or expert systems, these systems may be actually believed to be the machine spirits and even be called Machine Spirits. For lesser items like a lasgun, the Imperium still believes it has a machine spirit, even though modern people may not find any computer systems in it. The performance or non-performance of an item is then linked in the Imperial person's eyes to how well the spirit has been appeased and honored. A plasma gun malfunction may be attributed to 1) the spirit being temperamental anyway and 2) improper rites of appeasement.

The actual acts of maintenance may lead to the same result of a functioning gun, but the belief system behind how it works is different. Modern people believe in a more mechanistic fashion of cause and effect through the interaction of inanimate objects and impersonal forces. The 40K person's view of things is more spiritualistic, so a well functioning machine works because the machine spirit is pleased with how it has been honored, fed with oil, bathed with lubricants.

Uh oh, need to change the lightbulb... Now where did I put my incense?

How many people really know how the machines they use work? Obviously, there are people who know how to assemble a car, wire a house, or program an OS.

But for most of us? We know how to use a computer when it works. When it doesn't, we know a few things to do to try and get them to work. Mostly, turning it off and back on again. (Do we know why it works? Do we care?) When that doesn't work, we take it to a specialist. The specialist does... something... and it works again.

The Adeptus Mechanus takes this to the extreme. People don't know anything about the mechanical principles that make their technology work. They also don't live in a society that assures them that there's an understandable, materialistic reason that the technology works. (Of course, they also live with technology that's orders of magnitude more complicated than anything in the 21st century.) Machine spirits are as reasonable an explanation as any, really, from what people in the 41st millennium understand. The technology works, they perform a series of rote actions when it doesn't, and if it isn't fixed they get a techno-mage to do magic and make it work.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're in the middle of a dark age. Think about how much better Roman metallurgy was than that found in southern Europe in the year 600 AD, then amplify that to take into account the sheer over-the-top-ness of 40k.

Actually, Roman metallurgy was not really that advanced, and any Medieval weaponsmith could easily make arms far superior to what Roman Legions had. (though in fairness, we probably don't have best, customized products of Roman metalsmiths available for comparison. Mass-produced army stuff perhaps did not represent highest achievable level).

Now, Roman construction was superior to what was found in Europe until ca. 18th century AD and there certainly lots of knowledge was lost. We still aren't 100% sure how exactly Pantheon was constructed, for example.

"Things that were better in the past" is very old, very basic literary device. You can see it in Iliad, for example.

Backfire wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're in the middle of a dark age. Think about how much better Roman metallurgy was than that found in southern Europe in the year 600 AD, then amplify that to take into account the sheer over-the-top-ness of 40k.

Actually, Roman metallurgy was not really that advanced, and any Medieval weaponsmith could easily make arms far superior to what Roman Legions had. (though in fairness, we probably don't have best, customized products of Roman metalsmiths available for comparison. Mass-produced army stuff perhaps did not represent highest achievable level).

Now, Roman construction was superior to what was found in Europe until ca. 18th century AD and there certainly lots of knowledge was lost. We still aren't 100% sure how exactly Pantheon was constructed, for example.

"Things that were better in the past" is very old, very basic literary device. You can see it in Iliad, for example.

If you want another example, again metallurgy, look at ancient China. The method of how the Shang dynasty (2nd millenium BC) cast bronze vessels has only recently been reconstructed, and the Chinese had chromium oxide coated swords by 206 BC, a process the West didn't have til about the 18th Century.

For much of history the past WAS better, at least in some areas. It is only in this recent modern era that we have come to expect technological advance as a given, or to even expect significant change within a lifetime.

Part of that is due to modern attitude and method of communicating scientific findings to each other openly (at least in theory). In the past, individual craftsmen tended to hoard their innovations, rendering it easy for them to be lost if the transmission from master to apprentice gets interrupted for any reason.

That same attitude of hoarding is exactly what the Adeptus Mechanicus practices, even within themselves. Forge Worlds hoard their specialty information, and on individual worlds, one Magos may keep his knowledge private even from his fellows. Everywhere in 40K, knowledge is fragmented and compartmentalized.

 Rysgame wrote:
Okay, I can see that point the older armor and weapons are more lovingly crafted. But as far as the machine spirit goes... Is it just the fact that noone actually understands basic mechanics or physics, such as how a firearm works. Therefore it must be a higher power controlling it? I.E. You haven't performed rituals of maintenance and cleaning. (Breaking the weapon down and cleaning as I would my rifle in the military.) Naturally the weapon won't fire. Though they see it as the Machine Spirit inside is angry vice, "Oh, I just forgot to clean out the loading mechanism" Am I on to something or am I completely off base?

This is pretty much it, but whether a person believes what they are doing is a ritual or not, has no real consiquence at the end of the day as you get the same results.

The idea of a 'machine spirit' was caused by the disbane of AI but for the need of partially sentient equipment in things like Titans and Landraiders. This then spread to all technology no matter how simple. This is probably one of the reasons why techniques became ritual over time, but most rituals are still heavily based on the original technique.

Heck, if you dig through the technical manuals for a lot of more complicated software these days we're halfway to the point where getting anything to work is a matter of superstition and appealing to the machine spirit already. Think of it as people with about our level of technical knowledge trying to use absurdly advanced technology with nothing but a technical manual.