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Yeah, look at the confusion surrounding Radukar; dude has zombie ogre bodyguards, is the size of an ogre… but is a turned human, apparently. Drain enough blood and you just get mad gains?

I've not read any fluff suggesting that warband is supposed to be larger than normal, so yeah their scale is definitely bigger.

We do need to remember though that the scale creep in WHFB editions was very real; the vampires from 7th-8th are WAY bigger than that little guy. Not half giant like the AoS one, but it is still a disingenuous comparison meant to exaggerate and mislead. Not to mention a fair comparison would be to the regular VLord model, who is also not nearly as large as jolly red giant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, look at the confusion surrounding Radukar; dude has zombie ogre bodyguards, is the size of an ogre… but is a turned human, apparently. Drain enough blood and you just get mad gains?

There's two versions of him; the larger one IS a hulked out monstrosity.

The regular vampire lord, Anasta Malkorian, and the underworlds warband are all pretty much the same size, and all of them are much larger than human scale models within their own respective systems.

I think we can say that GW is intentionally making vampires larger than humans, and they haven't just made a series of scale mistakes, as all the vampire lords are in line with each other scale line. Note: I haven't built Cado Ezechiar yet, I don't know where he falls here.

 Olthannon wrote:
The difference between 6th edition and earlier minis and 7th edition is pretty substantial. It's not just AoS.

Indeed. Even the first pic posted with the Cursed City mini's has (what looks to me, could be wrong) a metal Empire Arty Crewman, Helstorm Battery perhaps, and a plastic multi-part archer. If that archer was posed standing upright rather than running, it would tower over that crewman and be closer to scale to the CC heroine wielding the two hander.

I seem to remember that Mordheim Vampire being dwarfed by the plastic Mordheim Empire warband mini's as well, which were its contemporaries.

Scale has always been inconsistent and had been trending upward for quite some time, with a few exceptions where it was scaled down. Examples: The very first multipart Skeletons, Night Goblins, Skaven all getting reduced down to appropriate sizes.

Personally never bothered by scale, as long as they were on appropriate bases.

The new AoS zombies are really quite small, even compared to the kit they replaced, so the scale is definitely all over the place.

They are smaller than the skellies as well, bone must grow when exposed to AoS aether air or something.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, look at the confusion surrounding Radukar; dude has zombie ogre bodyguards, is the size of an ogre… but is a turned human, apparently. Drain enough blood and you just get mad gains?

The AoS vampires, esp the Cursed City lot, are leaning way more into the bestial elements of the curse.

I would not be surprised if we see full werewolf monsters from GW at some point in the future.

Again these are vampires who don't have to hide and blend in. They can 100% let themselves go wild - quite literally. They are bloated on blood and power in ways that the Old World Vampires rarely got to enjoy before being attacked. Heck perhaps we get a vampire like Pearl from Blade!

Vyrkos are specifically the "bestial" elements.

popisdead wrote:

Sasorijap wrote:

Apparently the main reason GW is bringing back Fantasy is to hurt Kings of War and Conquest. Their thinking is "if it hurts their sales good if it doesn't oh well we made a few extra quid".

That is 100% the reason. It keeps people from playing other competitor games. Do you really think GW is going to support it like AoS or 40k?

Returning to this tangent, I have to say its always a little weird that people have this KoW vs. AoS, Conquest vs. AoS, ASOIAF vs AoS mindset that ignores GW's Middle Earth game. I remember this past years Adepticon tourney for GW's Middle Earth game got better attendance numbers then any of the 3 non GW systems mentioned above and seemed like it sold out faster than any of them. I don't think any of the 3 non GW systems actually sold out, and a casual 8th Edition WHFB (in the grave 5+ years) event sold more then the Conquest event, at least in terms of pre-event signups. Its not a perfect barometer to measure, for sure, but its probably one of the only times where they directly rub shoulders and the discrepancy of players is on display. The Adepticon website still shows 2022 attendance, if anyone wants to look.

I'm not intentionally knocking any of those 3 non GW fantasy wargames, I just don't think they have any sort of impact on GW's decisions that people give them. There are elements in GW's structure that recognize there is desire for a return to an IP they abandoned. Simple as that.

This the same GW that refuses to print units in army books before they get a model because they can't stand the thought of some garage company selling a few copies of a resin knockoff tho.

Luke82 wrote:
The new AoS zombies are really quite small, even compared to the kit they replaced, so the scale is definitely all over the place.

They are smaller than the skellies as well, bone must grow when exposed to AoS aether air or something.

The zombies are random peasants whereas the skeletons were actual soldiers. Humans have a pretty wide range of sizes in real life too.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This the same GW that refuses to print units in army books before they get a model because they can't stand the thought of some garage company selling a few copies of a resin knockoff tho.

That explains why something like Necromunda has several things with rules but no model, then.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Luke82 wrote:
The new AoS zombies are really quite small, even compared to the kit they replaced, so the scale is definitely all over the place.

They are smaller than the skellies as well, bone must grow when exposed to AoS aether air or something.

The zombies are random peasants whereas the skeletons were actual soldiers. Humans have a pretty wide range of sizes in real life too.

Yeah, but vampires are aristocrats and therefore inbred bastards. How is it they're not stunted hunchbacks like peasants who are also inbred bastards? Something doesn't add up. I'm not getting them right proper Warhammer vibes from AoS.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This the same GW that refuses to print units in army books before they get a model because they can't stand the thought of some garage company selling a few copies of a resin knockoff tho.

I prefer that over the GW that published several editions of Tyranid codex with cool units in them that never ever got models! Heck we got the Parasite model only this last year!

If GW does not go for a conquest / ASOIF / WOTR square tray with space for round based minis for this game, they are morons.

Going with individual square bases makes no sense except to cater to grognards. It takes a lot of time to rank up a horde of square bases on the board, for no real gain. As many have mentioned, it also strictly limits how the miniatures can be posed, and it just feels so outdated.

 Illumini wrote:
If GW does not go for a conquest / ASOIF / WOTR square tray with space for round based minis for this game, they are morons.

Going with individual square bases makes no sense except to cater to grognards. It takes a lot of time to rank up a horde of square bases on the board, for no real gain. As many have mentioned, it also strictly limits how the miniatures can be posed, and it just feels so outdated.

Well, the gain is that it looks like an actual regiment and not just 6 dudes vaguely moving in the same direction with enough elbow room for an Ogre to walk through the unit without touching anyone.

 Illumini wrote:
If GW does not go for a conquest / ASOIF / WOTR square tray with space for round based minis for this game, they are morons.

Going with individual square bases makes no sense except to cater to grognards. It takes a lot of time to rank up a horde of square bases on the board, for no real gain. As many have mentioned, it also strictly limits how the miniatures can be posed, and it just feels so outdated.

Literally the very first we knew about TOW was a return to squares.

I don't know if the square bases were for hype for Rank And File or if they're really going back to squares.

Either way, I'll likely still continue with rounds on custom movement trays:


But I think it would be a missed opportunity for GW to skip making bigger movement trays for round bases that can be cross marketed for LotR.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This the same GW that refuses to print units in army books before they get a model because they can't stand the thought of some garage company selling a few copies of a resin knockoff tho.

That explains why something like Necromunda has several things with rules but no model, then.

That also explains Middle-earth with references to Anarion and things like Azog's Signal Tower

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
If GW does not go for a conquest / ASOIF / WOTR square tray with space for round based minis for this game, they are morons.

Going with individual square bases makes no sense except to cater to grognards. It takes a lot of time to rank up a horde of square bases on the board, for no real gain. As many have mentioned, it also strictly limits how the miniatures can be posed, and it just feels so outdated.

Well, the gain is that it looks like an actual regiment and not just 6 dudes vaguely moving in the same direction with enough elbow room for an Ogre to walk through the unit without touching anyone.

I mean, in most cases that's just you permitting your brain to trick itself. WHFB regiments probably averaged around ~30 models and 30 soldiers would look like a pretty tiny formation irl. For a game like Total War to render army-scale WHFB visuals they had to multiply that number. Once you realize that -- that you are celebrating what was already an abstract depiction, that was never close to properly scaled in the first place -- it should be pretty easy to accept other changes along those lines, particularly if you care at all about things like cost of entry to the system.

 KidCthulhu wrote:
I don't know if the square bases were for hype for Rank And File or if they're really going back to squares.

Either way, I'll likely still continue with rounds on custom movement trays:

Spoiler:

But I think it would be a missed opportunity for GW to skip making bigger movement trays for round bases that can be cross marketed for LotR.

That certainly looks much better than the old blocks of square bases.

realism VS playability VS good looking

in the end you get a little bit of everything with good looking and playability being the important parts

look at historical R&F games, specially in Napoleonic
in reality you got units that were 200 man wide and 2-3 man deep, with a game using an abstract ratio of 1:20 or 1:30 you would put 20-24 models in a single line to be realistic

yet for playability and good looks, 2 ranks and 12 files for 24 models are used
but those games also do away with single mechanics (like removing them for damage) as this does not fit very well the immersion that a unit is an abstract symbol of 500 soldiers and not just 24 dudes

I think beyond just the core rules, how they handle the movement trays and if you can use square or round in them and how the rules work for both will play a huge part in determining the success of this reboot.

I suggest you guys take a bit of paper or an old movement tray and some 32mm bases and see how many you can fit in a regiment footprint, see if that's a satisfying unit.

 nathan2004 wrote:
I think beyond just the core rules, how they handle the movement trays and if you can use square or round in them and how the rules work for both will play a huge part in determining the success of this reboot.

Will they start packing cross-system models (Daemons, Chaos warriors etc.) with both squares and rounds and jack up the price?

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
I think beyond just the core rules, how they handle the movement trays and if you can use square or round in them and how the rules work for both will play a huge part in determining the success of this reboot.

Will they start packing cross-system models (Daemons, Chaos warriors etc.) with both squares and rounds and jack up the price?

A huge part of this depends on how cross compatible GW intend the products to be.

My impression is GW would keep them separate and that would mean different bases in each pack. This would also mean GW wouldn't sell a movement tray with round slots in them nor round to square adaptors for monsters and heroes. Which would likely see the 3rd party market explode with those options very quickly (esp with 3D printing). In the end GW would see, manage, finance and run them as separate games and entities; but players might well cross stuff over all the time and use them as counts as -stand ins or conversion material.


GW could run them as side projects and build some fancy systems to let one work for the other - heck AoS lore would pretty much allow you to effortlessly lift the new old world forces into AoS.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
I think beyond just the core rules, how they handle the movement trays and if you can use square or round in them and how the rules work for both will play a huge part in determining the success of this reboot.

Will they start packing cross-system models (Daemons, Chaos warriors etc.) with both squares and rounds and jack up the price?

RE-start. Daemons used to come packed like that.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
I think beyond just the core rules, how they handle the movement trays and if you can use square or round in them and how the rules work for both will play a huge part in determining the success of this reboot.

Will they start packing cross-system models (Daemons, Chaos warriors etc.) with both squares and rounds and jack up the price?

RE-start. Daemons used to come packed like that.

Ah, but that was years ago! Obviously, increased overheads since those days of lore will necessitate a regrettable price hike.

Honestly whilst I know square bases are about one of the few things GW has marketed for this game and the return to rank and file battles; I'd honestly welcome them putting every model on a round base like in AoS.

Then bring out a selection of movement trays and upgrade attachments so that every model can run square/rectangular whilst still on their round base.

That way you can glue them into the adaptors and use them that way all the time; or have the option to swap between the two games.
Because if each game is on its totally separate system its a pain to swap.between. Troops isn't too bad you put them on rounds and then use a movement tray ;but leaders, monsters, heroes and basically anything not on a movement try is much harder

Changing it to rounds would torpedo the game straight away. Anyone who has switched to rounds is happily playing AoS and spending all their doll hairs with GW already, the Old World coming back is surely after the monies of those of us still playing WHFB but not really invested in the nuGW ecosystem, or those suffering through KoW wishing the game they really wanted was back. If these folk were willing to rebase they would have done so already.

Honestly I can't believe this thread is still going nearly three years after GW announced the project. Longer wait than many a bad Kickstarter!

Probably time to move on guys. And I say that with a ton of empathy. Nostalgia for something long gone is a bleep of a drug.