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HQ
An important slot given the newly ‘cinematic’ nature of the game, but not really that game-defining unless some big shenanigans is made possible. Two models are likely not going to swing game when the order of the day is spamming survivable affordable firepower.

CSM: Arguably the high point of the book, with many special characters and decently fluffy. Pretty much all CC beasts, they don’t impact their armies that much other than making elites into troops selections/scoring here and there. The fact that said elites are usually nothing to sing about hampers the appeal. Still, quite a lot strong of AP2 melee swinging at Initiative here, even if Champion of Chaos makes them act dumb. The sorcerer is good but not great, and lacks Divination access, which is currently a big thing in determining which MeQ armies get to be competitive.

DA: Much improved over the last version, but then again that is a really low bar. Sammael is really great. Azrael is strong, but he doesn’t really sinergize that well with the choices he enables. And Ezekiel has become a really sweet package for his point cost. They get Divination access, meaning that twin-linked salvo 4 bolters will eat enemy infantry alive. And DE vehicles. Hell, everything. Besides, nice to be able to get Techmarines as upgrades to existing HQs (While the CSM version hogs a whole slot…). Not all HQ-support models are created equal, though for ages rules have tried to insist otherwise.
Advantage: CSM

Elites

The things that are like other things, but…better. Force multiplier. Special dudes. Important in this comparison since both books can get away with sneaking them to do troops stuff.

DA: DA terminators get more expensive than most other variants, but they also gain so much. Easily made scoring. Plenty of tools for guided/planned Deepstrike, decent transport options and amazing weaponry, while being the most resilient 2+ infantry this side of Paladins. Also: Split fire. You can also make Nurgle players cry by fielding T5 terminators with FNP (Banner), thought the cost is….salty. Dreads are not bad and can be made to specialize, but may well end up playing second fiddle to the termi onslaught. Veterans are also not quite up to snuff.

CSM: Ooo boy. The big question: Does Chaos even have a real elite section? So much of it is former troops that got worse and cheaper (or not, in the case of 1Ksom and Plagueboys). The Hellbrute mediocre, unable to focus on dakka and has no good delivery method to get up close. Terminators are cheap if left bare, have wonky upgrade costs and cant fit in their transport if taken in any sizable numbers, not to mention having lost their deepstrike guidance (and thus termicide tactics). Chosen also lost their one feature other than “they can take more guns that similar horned marines”. And Mutilators may actually be a prank unit.

Advantage: DA, by a nautical mile.

Fast Attack

Strong in both books. This was expected in the case of DA and a pleasant surprise for CSM, whose FA section in previous books was…tragic. It's like the goodness from the earlier CSM codex leaked into this slot in the new edition.

DA: Thoroughly amazing. Bike armies are a thing now, being able to get good cover saves, cheap special weapons and hit and run. Land Speeders can be spammed like no tomorrow for a good cost and also get respectable cover saves while tossing out high-quality fire. The Darkshroud is likely going to be the KFF Mekboy of 6th edition, only even more infuriating. The flyers are the low point, but they are not actively bad. It’s just outmatched by plenty of other in-codex options that kill infantry and light vehicles much better.


CSM: The Helldrake is very good. Only average against other flyers and the butcher cannon is barely an option given its crap BS, but the baleflamer is so good it makes the package work. It’s still a single weapon, mind, which may not be much compared to the ocean os dakka other flyers can pump out, and won’t help against hordes or 2+ armor, but as it is it’s one of the few things good against cover-boasting Ravenwing, Nob bikers and cover-sneaking Long Fangs. One is almost mandatory at this point. Bikers, like Havocs, are good mostly due to being so cheap, but they have nothing really exciting. No hit&run, scoring or unique weapons or rules, they are just…there for a good cost.

Warp Talons may have been the result of a bet with another dev regarding who could make the worst unit, and they won (the other unit was Mutilators). Specialists without basic tools to do their one thing (assault grenades), a useless, dangerous ability to sometimes cause Blind if they Deepstrike suicidally close, and priced up the wazoo. Raptor, like bikers, are just unobstrusively there. Spawn are a one-trick pony that is not going to last, and the DA codex does a lot to send them to the bin.
Advantage: DA, by a fair margin.

Troops:

The core of the game now, with the number of mission based on objectives having grown, as well as the potential number of objectives on the board. Killy troops that can survive are, plainly speaking, where it’s at. And if they can take killy dedicated transports as well…that’s what broken armies are made of.

DA: Tacticals may actually become their own wing in this book. Very cheap for what they bring (who’d imagine ATSKNF plus stubborn are both worth a single point!), semi-flexible weapon choices, and banners make them stack bonuses with other units. The Ld 8 basic sergeant is lame, but given ATSKNF it’s not a big issue, and even if it is, the upgrade to LD9 is dirt-cheap and still leaves point over comparing to the earlier cost. With some placing, you can get 3 units to benefit from a single salvo banner for insane dakka. Scouts are nice and solid, can get better cover from a Shroud (though they usually won’t be in the same position on the board).

CSM: Basic chaos marines are adequate. They lost part of their flexibility in that they no longer come with ccw, and now you also have to pay for their good Leadership, which you should since they don’t auto-rally if they run. If you pay to bring them up to their previous statline, they start getting inefficient, and the Marks are not quite powerful enough to multiply their force in any meaningful way. Khorne won’t make them scary in CC against anyone better than vanilla tacticals. Tzeentch might make the enemy wet himself laughing. Nurgle is somewhat good but expensive, and Slaanesh too focused on CC in a game about dakka. The same goes for banners.

Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not. They are sub-guard guard, becoming zombies via Typhus is gimmicky but not actually good, and they will vanish under flamers, any large blasts, salvo bolters and the like, zombie or not.
Advantage: Dark Angels

Heavy Support

Actual tanks, artillery, stuff that goes beyond that lame S4 crap you see in other slots!

DA: Devastators actually become a strong choice here. You can get lascannon devs for a very good price, and with Divination primaries twin-linking them they can put most flyers in the ground right quick. The rest is a bit vanilla, but definitely functional. Land Raider variants are there and have plenty of fun passengers to ferry, and can get a 4+ save along with smoke with a Darkshroud nearby, which is nothing to sneeze at.

The plasma speeder is not quite worth the cost, though when combined with rad grenades it can allow for truly murderous ID onslaught against Paladins or any pesky T4 HQ in 2+ armor. The range is the main issue: at 36 inches it would be quite good. It's also fragile given its slot; the cover save helps, but the moment something ignores it or gets lucky, it is effectively shut down.

CSM: A crowded section. The Chaos Land Raider is at the same time bad and somewhat unavoidable, being the only assault vehicle in an army very focused on melee. No PotMS, lame carrying capacity, no weapons to help it break lines. Obliterators are still good but the Leadership hit and wonky forced weapon-switching are an issue. Havocs are cheap with autocannons, but bland. The Maulerfiend is so narrow in its focus it may belong on the elder codex: it’s good for busting Land Raider, Monoliths and maybe some fortifications and nothing else without risking more points than it is busting. Forgefiends are not great shots and are easily busted by a drop-pod-delivered melta or distant lascannon shot. Vindicators and Predators are decent but unchanged.
Advantage: A close contest here. DA actually gets more bang for their buck, but the fact is they have other better choices to spend most of their points on. Meanwhile, CSM depends almost entirely on Heavy Support for armor-cracking, plasma goodness and assault troop delivery. DA still win due to at least having reliable quality in their picks, even if it is upstaged by other slots.

Allies Matrix

*snerks*

DA wins.

Final Considerations:

The DA book does show that a lot of time was spent thinking of how wach variant list is going to play. What kind of force will be built around Sammael? Or Azrael? How will they score, take objectives, or deal with mech/horde? All of those questions are answered. A bit light on anti-air, but by no means defenseless.

The CSM book betrays none of that care. What army is Kharn geared towards? Berserkers in Rhinos that cannot assault until turn 3? Why is Lucius a duelist is his army is all based in tossing out low-strength dakka that ignores cover? Can Abaddon even join marked units? Does Ahriman make a Thousand-son based force any less mediocre on the board?

More than that, DA is where the flavor is. It gives you options to make fun, fluffy armies that are different from each other and work, the kind of armies DA playes want to play and attracted them to the chapter in the first place. It is geared to deliver: Deathwing is a thing? Then they get things that make them work and unique. Timed deep strike. Split fire. Shields and special weapons and no scatter on the bigshots. Oh wait, we’re doing bikes and fast stuff? Then they get Hit&run and good cover. They get special plasma dudes. They carry beacons to summon support right where they need it.

Meanwhile, an Iron Warrior fan better be happy with some gargoyle dreads ad a plain vindicator or expensive defiler, all shoved in the same three slots as ever. Now that’s a mighty heavy armored force blanketing the horizon with cruel steel! Alpha legion has to pray for an Infiltrate warlord trait or use such famous Alpha legionnaires like Huron or Ahriman. Night Lords may as well be absent. Even when they try to add flavor, it seems to only detract from the fun: forced challenges (because my expensive, wily Tzeentch sorcerer surely rose to power charging into any mook with a Power Fist, not using his sorcerous influence in the background to steer fate itself), making Obliterators and Mutilators constantly switch weapons, Daemonic possessed vehicles and the Scroll of Magnus be actively more harmful than helpful unless you have such great luck with the dice you may as well be using d4s on all rolls and you’d still win.

Yeah, it’s an unfair comparison. It’s easier to think up 3-4 army variants (Deathwing, Razenwing, Greenwing and Doublewing) than 9. But the fact that one book pulled it off and the other did not is still just that: a fact.

The "Plasma Speeder" is a Heavy, not Fast Attack.

Other than that mistake, not too shabby a comparison.

Well spotted, will be fixed.

This does make it a bit better, though, since it does not compete with better stuff.

By pointing out the Black Knight and Vengeance synergy (how in the nine hells did I miss that?) you have actually sold me on the sodding thing. Lobbing that pie-plate on a unit with -1T is a great little trick and it can bring it in to position much sooner than a Vindicator. Probably still just going to magnetize a Dark Shroud (just in case I still dislike it), but that little bit of synergy makes it look a lot better. Hell, I was going to be running Black Knights anyways, so it isn't like things weren't going to get smacked with Rad grenades.

Nice analysis in either case.

I think the Helldrake single handedly wins the Fast Attack section for Chaos by a fair margin. 20 point bikers I feel are almost on par with RW bikes due to versatility via marking.

Obliterators do the same in the Heavy Support. Havocs can tote specials and are a point cheaper; ATSKNF will rarely come into play for a 5 man squad.

Havoc launcher armed rhinos are better than razorbacks via the laters hefty price hike.

I feel overall the DA is probably a better book but its awfully close. DA still dont have anything like Plague Marines and Chaos still has the top three ranged weapons of both books in the form of the Baelfire, Blastmaster and Burning Brand.

Not surprising at all. The lack of creativity in the CSM codex was apparent from page 1. the cover was awesome, but the inside was a letdown. I can think of a dozen things that would make the codex better, but as it is it looks like a rush job on par with Dragon Age 2. I do like the codex, but it does not lend itself to many styles of play.

 lazarian wrote:

I feel overall the DA is probably a better book but its awfully close. DA still dont have anything like Plague Marines and Chaos still has the top three ranged weapons of both books in the form of the Baelfire, Blastmaster and Burning Brand.

And those things pretty much made up the whole CSM codex... Every CSM player brings Nurgle Stuff (Lords, PMs, Bikers/Spawns/Oblits), Baledrakes and AC Havocs. Meanwhile, the DA player brings whatever he wants, because even the useless selections (the flyers, the LS Vengeance) are cool.


Otherwise, the OP has so much truth in his post that it is painful :(.

 lazarian wrote:
I think the Helldrake single handedly wins the Fast Attack section for Chaos by a fair margin. 20 point bikers I feel are almost on par with RW bikes due to versatility via marking.

Obliterators do the same in the Heavy Support. Havocs can tote specials and are a point cheaper; ATSKNF will rarely come into play for a 5 man squad.

Chaos bikes can never be scoring, have no beacons and are limited in number compared to RW. Start stacking marks and icons and soon they lose their only real advantage...cheap cost.

And ATSKNF is actually more important for small units. It keeps them on the board longer. My havocs can run right off after losing two guys, depriving me of 3 surviving wepons. Loyalists will just have to snap fire for a turn as they rally and then will be back shooting the guns I paid for an attracting fire for more turns until the very last guy is killed.

 Sephyr wrote:
Loyalists will just have to snap fire for a turn as they rally and then will be back shooting the guns I paid for an attracting fire for more turns until the very last guy is killed.

They don't even have to Snap Fire. Models with ATSKNF can act normally in the turn they rally. They can even fire Heavy weapons normally if they don't move in the Movement Phase.

I meant that they would likely have to move to get back in position and would have to snapfire heavy weapons, but you are right. I should have clarified!

I'll go ahead and post my thoughts on this, as well. I've had a little time now to read through, and do some evaluation.


HQ
DA have some great force multiplier HQS, like Azreal and Sammael, but a lot of them seem to fall flat on their face, like Asmodai. I really enjoyed the new armory as well. It's really hard to beat the Chaos HQs' though. Our Sorcerer is superior to a DA libby, and while a Chaos lord is at a slight disadvantage when it comes to point per point vs a Company master base (As the Company master gets inner circle) The ability to take marks, sways things in the Chaos Lords favor. Granted, most of the Mark costs don't make a lot of sense, but you can customize your lord much better than a company master. Our special characters, while some of them aren't very good, can preform their roles as force multipliers, quite well. I like the Command squads for DA, but Point per Point, I think Deathwing actually turns out to be a better deal, and they score. You can get more Black Knights this way though.

I have to give HQ to Chaos.

Elites: The Chaos Elites are pretty terrible for the most part. Any cult choices, will be taken as troops if you want them. Chosen are actually pretty decent. Helbrutes are Ok. Terminators are cheap, and you can still do Termicide. The rest of the choices are pretty much garbage. I don't think you will be seeing much from the DA elites either though, for the same reason as chaos. If you want Deathwing, you'll be taking them as troops. Deathwing knights are also an Ok choice, I'd take them over Mutilators for sure. Overall, I think this slot is pretty meh in both books.

Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.

Fast Attack: This slot seems to have the best choices from both books. I'm not really going to count Ravenwing, as a choice, since if you want it, it will be a Troops Choice. Black Knights are flat out amazing, and the Dark Shroud is a fantastic force multiplier. Their Flyers are grossly overcosted, and I don't think you will be seeing them. Chaos has the Heldrake however, which is just flat out amazing with a Baleflamer. Chaos Bikers are also very good. Someone did the math on the Surviability with Either Nurgle Bikers, or Slaaneshi Bikers with IoE. Even it jacks the points up some, they are very very good. Overall, I'm going to have to give this slot to Chaos. The Heldrake is probably the best unit in the new Dex, and while Black Knights and the Darkshroud are awesome, I still think Heldrakes edge them out. It's very close though.

Heavy Suppot: Honestly, I think Chaos hands down beats DA here. DA have cheap Devs, and Cheap Whirlwinds. That's really all they have going for them in this slot. Everything else is standard Space Marine fare except The Land speeder Vengeance which is really bad. Chaos have Oblits, which with MoN and VOTLW are very very good, and very durable. They also have cheap Havocs. Forgefiends I personally think are a lot better than most people give them credit for. I've been using them, and they don't really die near as quick as people seem to think. They provide wonderful Anti-tank and can preform Anti-infantry as well. We may start seeing more Ecto Fiends if Deathwing becomes really popular.

Overall, balance wise, I think they're both very close with time being the one to tell if DA end up edging out CSM. I still am disappointed in the Variety in the CSM book, and I do think the DA book is much better written.

I think people are looking at models and not at an entire list.
While black knights are powerful, they cost as much as a loyalist termie (a little more actually). Chaos can take two bikers for every one of theirs.
Our regular bikers have +1 attack and +1 T (nurgle) over a regular DA bike...and is one point cheaper. They get scout moves and homers, which are nice but not as good as ours imo.
For termies, you could give all of ours fnp and combi weapons and still be cheaper (will end up at 39ppm, allowing for some weapons), although they still have decent access to TH/SS (although more expensive then all but wolves). The robed versions seem really bad with no shooting and 1W...and maces. Ectofiends can look forward to scoring all their pts back in one salvo, as can vindicators.
Their pyskers cost more then ours to upgrade and max out at 2 levels. Granted div is the best lore, however biomancy and telepathy are tied for the #2 lores.

I'd say DA have an advantage in special characters (because their regular hq are pretty bad outside of pyskers), slight edge in elites, and a solid win in troops. Chaos have a solid edge in FA, much better generic hq, and a better HS slot.
I do feel DA plays better against chaos then chaos does against DA. But against most other enemies, chaos has a slight edge.
I have played two games against DA at 2k points and won both. I did get lucky one game and sniped the dakka pole, and the other game the guy wiped one 35 man cultist squad. The only scary thing was the LC spam from the devs, but i'm pretty tank heavy for the current metA

 Sephyr wrote:

 lazarian wrote:
I think the Helldrake single handedly wins the Fast Attack section for Chaos by a fair margin. 20 point bikers I feel are almost on par with RW bikes due to versatility via marking.

Obliterators do the same in the Heavy Support. Havocs can tote specials and are a point cheaper; ATSKNF will rarely come into play for a 5 man squad.

Chaos bikes can never be scoring, have no beacons and are limited in number compared to RW. Start stacking marks and icons and soon they lose their only real advantage...cheap cost.

And ATSKNF is actually more important for small units. It keeps them on the board longer. My havocs can run right off after losing two guys, depriving me of 3 surviving wepons. Loyalists will just have to snap fire for a turn as they rally and then will be back shooting the guns I paid for an attracting fire for more turns until the very last guy is killed.

I find that neither are doing much running with a higher LD, furthermore how many times is the enemy going to be content with one or two casualties in a HS slot? I see the benefit of ATSKNF however I feel being able to spam 4 specials out of a rhino to be as useful, if not moreso.

As to the issue of variety, DA does win this, not an issue. However variety does not equal power. Plague marines, noise marines, cultists and horde basic marines are all viable as troops. Furthermore due to unlocking Chaos has access to 3 other options as troops, more than DA. While yes Ravenwing/Deathwing/Greenwing are all good, Chaos at least gets Nurgle, Slaanesh and Vanilla as army builds.

A very very nice article, exalted. not entirely sure what it does but it is.

Cult Marines should be considered as being Troops, since that's what most CSM players would use them as.

Plague Marines are amazing troops. Plague Knives, Blight Grenades, and FNP? Thousand Sons are good support, too. AP3 bolters will wreck most DA armies, excluding Deathwing. Noise Marines got better with the latest FAQ, seeing as they can now take a basscannon and not have to be 10 in a squad. Berzerkers? Eh, I'll give that one up.

DA being able to take Flakk missiles with Tac squads is awesome, though. Can't argue against that.

I did not put Cult marines, or Ravenwing Bikes, or Deathwing termis as troops because it wouls make for a giant, bloated section going all over the place, not fun to read.

Plague marines are good yes, but expensive and not that killy. Thousand Sons are gimped by being a shooty unit without ovewartch, making themeasy to dispose of, brutally expensive and carrying a psyker that can't be upgraded into usefulness and with arguably the worst power selection in the game.

And the piece was written and psoted just before the new FAQs hit and gave Noise Marines a second wind. Yay for my timing!

Maybe if I write another one they can make zerkers fleet....

For what they get, Plague Marines aren't really that expensive. Fearless, FNP, Blight Grenades, Plague Knife, etc. Plus, you can take two special weapons in a basic sized squad. Thousand Sons, yeah. They're really expensive, but they have AP3 bolters and a 4+ invuln save.

Quick, start writing and they might make Warp Talons not terrible!

 Sephyr wrote:

Maybe if I write another one they can make zerkers fleet....

DO IT! But don't talk about Fleet, just give back the old Mark Of Khorne (the flat +1 Attack) - it would instantly fix the whole Khorne range and could give even Warp Talons a break.

 xSPYXEx wrote:
For what they get, Plague Marines aren't really that expensive. Fearless, FNP, Blight Grenades, Plague Knife, etc. Plus, you can take two special weapons in a basic sized squad. Thousand Sons, yeah. They're really expensive, but they have AP3 bolters and a 4+ invuln save.

A lot is made of that AP3, much as on Stormtroopers. One will notice neither unit typically makes much of a showing on tables. The problem is that, the AP3 is grossly over-valued, against lighter infantry it is effectively meaningless, and against MEQ infantry they're so expensive that the amount they're outnumbered by will often mean they can never engage effectively and the AP3 is nicely avoided by diving into CC.

After pouring through both codexes I am quite put off at how weak the CSM codex feels compared to the DA codex and it makes me wonder if they are tying to make the CSM look bad.

Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.

The real difference here is not so much in the selections themselves but rather in the rules by which they are forced to play. DA troops have ZERO rules that penalize or hold them back. Chaos on the other hand has the "Champions of Chaos" nonsense. Meaning that Chaos has to always think about either tooling up their aspiring champ to a silly degree or treat them like the completely throw away character they are and get boned in cc. I haven't seen any such handicaps in the DA codex and while CoChaos applies to the entire codex, it hits the Troops section particularly hard. That's why I would say that the TROOPS slot is a clear-cut win for the DA.

This has been a great read by the way. Thanks all for the calm/balanced discussion!

Tycho wrote:

Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.

The real difference here is not so much in the selections themselves but rather in the rules by which they are forced to play. DA troops have ZERO rules that penalize or hold them back. Chaos on the other hand has the "Champions of Chaos" nonsense.

Grim Resolve? Ok, it's not as bad as Champion of Chaos.

But really, Stubborn is easily the worst of all different "Chapter tactics".

The CSM may be boring but its quality per point for its good units are ubsurd. 170pts for a 9-13 str6 ap2 attacks on the charge at int.5? WTF!? 170 for a flying str7ap3 vector striker with a str6ap3 torrent flame... 170pts... again WTF?! A chaos player using the books strengths has a lot of brutal units for the points invested. But again boring. Unless you like to use the same thing over and over and over.

Backfire wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.

The real difference here is not so much in the selections themselves but rather in the rules by which they are forced to play. DA troops have ZERO rules that penalize or hold them back. Chaos on the other hand has the "Champions of Chaos" nonsense.

Grim Resolve? Ok, it's not as bad as Champion of Chaos.

But really, Stubborn is easily the worst of all different "Chapter tactics".

Another thing to keep in mind, is while Champion of Chaos is pretty bad, DA have to upgrade to get a Veteran SGT, while Chaos squads come with them standard.


EDIT: Heldrakes also just got a pretty big boost. Vector Strikes now Ignore cover, and it's weapon is turret mounted, and measured from the base.

Another thing to keep in mind, is while Champion of Chaos is pretty bad, DA have to upgrade to get a Veteran SGT, while Chaos squads come with them standard.

That free "upgrade" is a complete waste though. Since I know that I will HAVE to use him in a challenge should cc occur, and since I know that he's more than likely going to get killed in said cc, I would rather he be a regular scrub. Then he can be less expensive and not so much of a waste.

EDIT: Heldrakes also just got a pretty big boost. Vector Strikes now Ignore cover, and it's weapon is turret mounted, and measured from the base.

No argument there. lol Heldrakes were already pretty great before. Now they are just that much better!

The more I go through both books the more I am beginning to think that the DA codex is going to end up as a top tier book when the dust settles. People talk about internal balance all the time and many people talk about the Chaos dex as being "internally balanced", but I guess I just have a different definition of "internal balance". Having many very similar units is NOT internal balance. Having multiple redundant units is not internal balance. Having fully two thirds of your entries in HQ and Elites is not internal balance. Especially not when most of those elites choices aren't so great. This all sums up the Chaos codex.

The DA codex has none of these issues. Internal balance means having units that support each other (bikers with homing beacons for your termies, etc). Good internal balance means I can build almost any list and not worry about getting totally tabeled. Having selections that support and compliment each other and NOT having needless redundancy are all parts of solid internal balance. The DA codex has all of this and more and I think it's going to be even more powerful than people think!

Tycho wrote:
The DA codex has none of these issues. Internal balance means having units that support each other (bikers with homing beacons for your termies, etc). Good internal balance means I can build almost any list and not worry about getting totally tabeled. Having selections that support and compliment each other and NOT having needless redundancy are all parts of solid internal balance. The DA codex has all of this and more and I think it's going to be even more powerful than people think!

That's a really good point. Almost nothing in the Chaos dex supports deepstriking (Dimensional key, but it's almost useless anyway). If Icons let you deepstrike nearby, then I would take them all day every day, but they don't so meh. And Chaos needs deep strike support or drop pods since it doesn't really have anything that would help get close and into combat soon, which is where Traitor Marines really shine. Metal Bawkzes can be good, but it's not the same as when I played Loyalists and had all my Sergeants take homing beacons so that my TermiLib and friends could drop in just about anywhere on the board reliably. I kind of miss that, really...

But about the internal balance and the Elite slot, I think it's the other way around. The Elite slot isn't overfilled, it's almost empty. If you're going to take cult marines, you probably will have a mark to turn them into troops. Only the first double spread are true elite choices. Termies, possessed, Chosen, and Mutilators. Nothing really awesome.

Heldrakes are fun though. Lots of fun

Bottom line, chaos got shafted...see sig.

Tycho wrote:


The more I go through both books the more I am beginning to think that the DA codex is going to end up as a top tier book when the dust settles. People talk about internal balance all the time and many people talk about the Chaos dex as being "internally balanced", but I guess I just have a different definition of "internal balance". Having many very similar units is NOT internal balance. Having multiple redundant units is not internal balance. Having fully two thirds of your entries in HQ and Elites is not internal balance. Especially not when most of those elites choices aren't so great. This all sums up the Chaos codex.

The DA codex has none of these issues. Internal balance means having units that support each other (bikers with homing beacons for your termies, etc). Good internal balance means I can build almost any list and not worry about getting totally tabeled. Having selections that support and compliment each other and NOT having needless redundancy are all parts of solid internal balance. The DA codex has all of this and more and I think it's going to be even more powerful than people think!

I've been thinking this as well. At first I felt DA may be a "top of the mid-tier" army, but reading around at what people are doing and what you can pull off, I see it as an actual contender. It definitely has the "Great shooting army that you still don't want to assault" feel from Space Wolves, it has tons of twin-linked AP2 guns to deal with 2+ armor, tons of tough scoring options, good psychic powers, cost-effective HQs...really, all it needs is for someone to come up with a way to deal with mass enemy flyers and it'll be right there at the top.

really, all it needs is for someone to come up with a way to deal with mass enemy flyers and it'll be right there at the top.

Well it is Battle brothers with IG, a vendetta, and some hydra might be helpful, along with a quad-gun.

Reading this thread I realised what is my problem with the csm codex as I lost enthusiasm for my csm project at some point after reading it. It's not the rules, it's the names and models. I mean Hellbrute, that sounds stupid, what's wrong with Chaos Dreadnought? Having a chance to make a big mad Juggernaut they made those nicely rounded fiends which look like something from Warmachine and the Helldrake is both named and looking silly, not chaotic at all. Also the codex is too nice, there's not enough insanity, corruption and blood. Bit of craziness is not going to cut it for csm book, they've spoiled the csm mood for me.

Good to see that there's still a chance for balanced codieces policy like in fantasy though.