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Not sure how informative I am allowed to be "posting GW rules is sort of no-no from my understanding" so I'll just summarize.

In the new DA codex the standard Tactical Squad is both lower in point cost and more versatile that in any other SM codex. Previously having 5 men would net you a singel special weapon, and increasing that to 10 men would net you a heavy...

Now a single squad of 5 may elect to take a special OR heavy weapon, and basically gains nothing by increasing squad size to 10.

What this does do however is open the way for abuse of certain weapons.

I now run 4 squads of 5 men, each with a sergeant (power weapon) and a marine with plasma gun. This is a very nice, rounded number that is three digits long and ends with two 0's.

that's a freakin' deal in point cost. Rather than having 2 scoring units with 2 plasma guns and the option of 2 heavy weapons, I now get 4 scoring units (that I can run close enough together they could easilly behave like a single larger squad) that can be split up and direct as I see fit, with 4 plasma guns, 4 sergeants, and I'm paying LESS in point cost?

I've found that this particular build works.... super well actually. I have more tactical options than most of my opponants now. Also, given the massive decrease in point cost, the value of scouts just took a nose dive

Has anyone else found a nice use for this rules change?

not taking advantage of the free heavy upgrade when you got to 10 men is why you are paying less.

The added versitility is nice. Assuming 10 men. You can now have all heavy weapons or all special weapons. You can have no sergeants or 2 sergeants.

but yes. DA tactical marines are better than C:SM but not as good as GH.

DA Tacs have lower leadership and don't get cost breaks on special and heavy weapons.

They also don't have Combat Tactics, instead they essentially have the opposite.

They're only a little cheaper, but it's because they aren't as good.

You are forgetting that C:SM tacs get a significant discount worth a grey hunter on special weapons. A typical tac squad loadout with 10 men a sergeant, melta gun and missile launcher costs the same for each codex.

That said, DA squads do benefit from greater flexibility. The sergeant can be trimmed on a shooty squad and a naked squad is cheaper which is handy if you just want scoring bodies or bolters for the banner. You also don't have to pay for heavy weapons on squads that spent a lot of time in rhinos or moving around. They do come at the price of losing combat tactics, especially since grim resolve is often worse than useless for a unit you want to disengage from assault.

Sounds like a step in the right direction, but it sounds like the non-astartes marines are still better. Space wolves and CSM.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like a step in the right direction, but it sounds like the non-astartes marines are still better. Space wolves and CSM.

no just GH
CSM
FORCED to take a champion who is FORCED to challenge
dont have ATSKNF: makes combat worthless and you will run and possibly not regroup.

DA tacticals are great. GH are better but DA tacticals are great.
DA Devistators are awesome. 5 with 4 lascannons costs the same as 5 havocs with 4 lascannons(who will run) and less than Long Fangs with Lascannons

You really don't think CSM are ahead of vanilla tacticals? Their options are incredible in comparison.

ATSKNF doesn't matter if they don't lose combats.

As an addendum, my BA have had far more problems dealing with CSM troops than astartes marines. I've never been able to be able to make lack of ATSKNF a real problem for them.

I think DA in pods could be interesting if you run a Command Squad with the bolter banner to buff them starting on T2.

In that sense, DA tacs are actually pretty nasty considering that they *could* gain access to salvo 2/4 weapons...

Martel732 wrote:
You really don't think CSM are ahead of vanilla tacticals? Their options are incredible in comparison.

ATSKNF doesn't matter if they don't lose combats.

As an addendum, my BA have had far more problems dealing with CSM troops than astartes marines. I've never been able to be able to make lack of ATSKNF a real problem for them.

never had your havocs break after taking some bolter fire
you are saying that CSM never lose combat? They arent great in combat.
never had your troops pinned
once broken, have you actually looked at the rally rules in this game. Very painful


ATSKNF is awesome

I know that rallying is allowed down to 25% now. I had an Eldar player do that to claim an objective.

Oh, I'm sure CSM lose combat. I just haven't seen it happen that often.

ATSKNF doesn't protect vs pinning to my knowledge.

Just remember that 5man squads are easier to die so it's not great in a kill point game.

As for the changes, they're not massive, a nice bonus but nothing too amazing I guess

ATSKNF is a huge advantage in-game, moreso than it would indicate on paper and moreso for C:SM.

ATSKNF doesn't protect against pinning per se, but a C:SM squad that is pinned or goes to ground and takes enough casualties can use Combat Tactics to fall back, cease being pinned, automatically regroup and move as normal next turn.

ATSKNF also received a giant boost in CC from 6th edition, for two reasons. One, fearless wounds are gone. Two, the enemy within 6" restriction on regrouping is gone. Together, this means there is literally no reason not to try and fall back - if you make it, you are out of combat and can shoot next turn, if you don't there is no penalty.

IMO, Dark Angels tactical marines are still worse than C:SM tactical marines. They cost the same and have the same options and profile, but they cannot capitalize on ATSKNF like C:SM and instead have Stubborn, which is definitely worse. DA can save a couple points by not upgrading to a Veteran Sergeant, and they can take 5-man squads with a heavy weapon. That's about it as far as advantages.

5-man squads with power weapons and plasma guns are definitely not a good use for tactical marines. Power weapons are close to worthless on small squads that otherwise don't want to be in combat, and all those 5-man squads are awfully squishy without transports. At least with a 10-man squad you have the choice of whether or not to Combat Squad, based on the mission, and I'd take a 5-man squad in a transport plus a 5-man squad in the back over 2 5-man squads walking up the board any day.

 Roboute wrote:
At least with a 10-man squad you have the choice of whether or not to Combat Squad, based on the mission, and I'd take a 5-man squad in a transport plus a 5-man squad in the back over 2 5-man squads walking up the board any day.

Missing one option, which is, in Codex DA you can get 2 5 man squads in Rhinos. You can't really do that as well in C:SM.

For MSU Rhino spam you can do better w/ Codex DA because each MSU w/ Rhino would be cheaper. That could also mean Razorback spam, and you could put a Heavy Weapon in those 5 man squads as well and fire out of the hatch.

Also, lol @ "squishy" MEQs. You people are so spoiled it's insane. a 3+ save is amazing. Each squad has 4-8 3+ ablative wounds surrounding each special weapon - how is that squishy?

I guess I have been unlucky vs CSM. They just seem better in every *practical* way to astartes marines. Of course, it doesn't help that my BA don't have combat tactics. So maybe its better to say that CSM seem to be completely superior to BA marine choices. I'm going to start allying with vanilla soon, so I'll have a better idea there.

One thing to note.. the new DA tacticals are very nearly same cost as C:SM... if you build it out the same.


10 man tactical + veteran upgrade (for the LD 9) + flamer and ML is bingo the same cost as it is for normal marines. They didnt reduce the price at all, they just made it a lot more flexible where you put your points, instead of forcing the "hidden" cost of the "free" flamer and ML.

I welcome the change and hope it is eventually rolled out to C:SM, it gives a LOT more flexability because, honestly, how much do you need that LD 9 for a 10 man in the backfield holdin gan objective? and how often do they need a special weapon? or even a ML for that matter. Might as well save those points to get another LC or PC for your cheaper devastators

Meanwhile frontline marines can become the normal cost again, it's fantastic!

I just wish they got heavy flamers... (here's hoping for C:SM to get it)

Play a non-marine army from time to time and you would appreciate ATSKNF.
Nothing MEQ can really compare to GH, mostly due to the fact they are undercosted by at least 4 pts a piece. (A CSM with Bolter, CCW and BP and MoK cost 17 and still dont have ATSKNF)

I think it's mostly the fact that Grey Hunters can just chill, Rapid Fire, and then they get Bolter overwatch, Pistol + CCW bonus, and Counterattack bonus.

I was thinking about putting a Librarian or a Company Master in a DA Tactical Squad, and it just doesn't really make sense. I have to forgo the use of my Plasma gun if I want to charge, or forgo the use of my Company Master's CCW if I want to shoot. Grey Hunters don't have that dilemma.

CSM cheap boost to VOTLW and optional +1 Ini, T, etc. boost make CSM a better choice than most MEQ. GH have some point/benefit advantages but marks and champs make a pretty solid argument. Hatred +1 Ini and FnP is my preferred build. Ld 9 makes up for half the benefit gained from ATSKNF. Plus a 1-36 chance of a free Demon Prince has to be worth something. Spawn aren't worthless, and Free(ish) 4 wound HQ isn't bad.

Combined with the cheap but useless bodies of cultist, you get the same or more scoring units, but with a highly polarized effectiveness distribution. Marines have a solid average of skills across the entire point spread.

DA specifically are now more focused on the MSU build set. Fits perfect with both the DW and RW styles. I think the marines are slowly specializing by generations, with BA being the assault, SW being the footslog mob, DA apparently MSU, Ultramarines are the vanilla average.

GK seem to be an elites only club, and Templars haven't really found a good niche yet.

Only tangentially related to OP. Sorry.
TL;DR properly applied CSM aren't as good as GH by a small bit, but with combined with other troop selections are better on the whole.

DA Tacs are phenomenal. Now second to only to SW GHs IMO on return on point investment.

Being able to give your CSM +1 init and a cheap CCW is huge. Coming from someone who beat a lot of ass with init 5 BA in 5th, I know how important this is. Can raptors get init 5?

I have played my buddy's Tau list a lot, so I have some experience with an army with leadership problems. But maybe its worse for meqs without ATSKNF.

It seems there's 2 advantages that DA tacs can make use of.

5 man squad with a heavy weapon (or special weapon)

10 man squads with nothing

The former lets you go MSU and have good ranged potential, the latter lets you flood the table with power armor jerks who won't be going anywhere anytime soon with their mix of stubborn and ATSKNF

The 10 man barebone lacks hitting power at range, but can blast most infantry with sheer volume of S4 and take down most vehicles in CC with their krak grenades.

You can also take 6 squads of them and combat squad them in objective games for a staggering 12 scoring units, which is something that GH cannot do.

This strategy relies on other parts of the FOC to bring the pain at range but they have so many cheap options for doing this I'd personally like to try taking the 6x 10 man squads.

This comes in at 840, so in a 1500 game you have a noted advantage of durability through sheer numbers.

True, but the GH can go murder most of your 12 scoring units

But how many are you going to have at 1500 points? Most I've seen is 4 units the average is 3 units. In an objective game you won't be able to get to grips with all 12 units, while simultaneously being hammered by FA and HS slot units.

That's true. I've not taken on a new DA list yet. Maybe the DA are an actual foil to the CSM and Space Wolves. Because lord knows the BA aren't anymore. My record against other meq lists (not named DT) sucks rocks in 6th.

 More Dakka wrote:
It seems there's 2 advantages that DA tacs can make use of.

5 man squad with a heavy weapon (or special weapon)

10 man squads with nothing

The former lets you go MSU and have good ranged potential, the latter lets you flood the table with power armor jerks who won't be going anywhere anytime soon with their mix of stubborn and ATSKNF

The 10 man barebone lacks hitting power at range, but can blast most infantry with sheer volume of S4 and take down most vehicles in CC with their krak grenades.

You can also take 6 squads of them and combat squad them in objective games for a staggering 12 scoring units, which is something that GH cannot do.

This strategy relies on other parts of the FOC to bring the pain at range but they have so many cheap options for doing this I'd personally like to try taking the 6x 10 man squads.

This comes in at 840, so in a 1500 game you have a noted advantage of durability through sheer numbers.

I agree with your assessment 100%, I suspect others will too when they start seeing 3+ sea of green. I've already been running mine with shining success.

The new green tide, huh?

Here are some Cheep MSU routines I think we might see.

>5 man Tactical Squad with a Missile Launcher with Flakk [95 points] for some light AAA
>5 man Tactical Squad with a Las-Cannon [95 points] for a Long Range Tank Hunter
>5 man Tactical Squad with a Multi-Melta [80 points] for a Short Rank Tank Hunter

If you can get them close to a Command Squad with a Dakka Banner they will probably do well.

Personally I only run full squads and almost never Combat Squad with a Vet Sergeant with a Combi-Plasma, Lighting Claw [Fluffy for me], Melta-Bombs and a Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon. I usually field 1-3 of them and most armies are not a problem for me.

Note: In my local Meta I own the only flyers or AV14.

It must be nice to have a monopoly on fliers AND AV 14.

Martel732 wrote:
It must be nice to have a monopoly on fliers AND AV 14.

Actually I feel Guilty when I do take them out so I never really get to play them

Well AV 14 is not magic. Even new players should have access to melta. The fliers on the other hand; many players panic when they show up. But then some panic over AV 14, too.