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I like the original sketch for Maru, but apart from the nose the thing which stands out for me otherwise is the lower jaw, it just looks way too short.

Checking the pictures from above, the jaw connects all the way to the front of the top half of the skull. The sculpt is short and it makes the model look weird. When you fix the top half with the teeth, re-doing the bottom jaw should also be a priority as well.

I also agree that the Swordtooth has issues with proportion and execution. If it looked more like a real big cat, it's the sort of thing I'd be buying multiples of. That upper cheek are is a mess as well.

The Minotaur on the other hand looks quite good, and Krull is excellent!

Guys
I really appreciate you taking the time to post pictures of big cats, but I think you need to take a step back a little. Maru is a Swordtooth - he's not a big cat and nor is he a sabre-toothed cat, he's our version of a monstrous felid.

He is deliberately larger and different to "real" sabre-toothed cats - he is meant to be that way. He's twice as large as the largest sabre-toothed cat that ever lived, he has a larger chest area and - well, he has spikes coming out of him and he wears spiked armour. He's a fantasy felid monster, not a cat! He's based on a feline, but we base all our monsters on something.

To be fair, I understand we are going to get this a lot with our range of miniatures; comparisons with existing beasts will always occur, because of the nature of what we are doing, but - if you take anything from what I say here - please understand that many of our miniatures are not supposed to look like the real thing. They are fantasy creatures, hence the armour, the deep chest, the spikes growing out of his skin, the odd toes (which no-one has remarked on yet!) and the different mouth.

Regarding the mouth, please be reassured that Tim's managed to stick it on badly, and whilst in an ideal world I'd be able to fix that and post pictures of how it's supposed to be his holiday and our casting schedule has kyboshed that. The painted version, which should be here in a couple of weeks, will show how it's meant to be. I can only apologise for the confusion, but we are human and we do not always do things perfectly.

I don't quite know why Maru has evoked such opinion - I would have thought it was obvious he was a fantasy monster, myself, but what do I know...!

Good debate though, there's nowt like a bit of interest to generate some look-sees.

Stay tuned for Eirik Longaxe later on today...

Maelstrom Games wrote:I don't quite know why Maru has evoked such opinion - I would have thought it was obvious he was a fantasy monster, myself, but what do I know...!

The opinion exists because the model does not follow the Rule of Cool: inaccuracies are fine, as long as those inaccuracies make for a better product.

The bulging nose and Trish-styled fur of the mane look worse than if you'd just copied the muzzle and mane of the real animal. That is why people object.

(It would also be nice to hear an answer to Scottywan's question about if the wargame means you'll be making plastics.)

The problem with the nose is that it does not remind a feline creature, but a walrus.

I mean I am fine with the it's-a-fantasy-creature argument and therefore inaccuracies are fine. The problem is not that the sculpt is not an accurate version of a lion or whatever, but that it looks like a rather odd combination of characteristics that do not fit together (walrus head+feline body).

Other than that, I have not seen anyone complaining about the fantasy characteristics of the model, e.g. spikes, armour etc. Only about the head which looks and feels wrong.

P.S.: Except in the case that the walrus+sabercat combination has been intentional, since Maru is a Fomorian beast.

I agree with AlexHolker , I use to like "innacuracies" and mutations and whatever, but its just a "first look" thing, you know if the first impression you have at seeing the model is "...hmmmm....looks wierd..." thats no good.
You cannot totally forget the "real" references as cat or lions just because it's what we all know from the real world, and in my opinion doesn't matter if its a fantastic monster, because most of the fantastic monster are just alterations of real creatures. To make a close example , if you look at the Minotaur on the preview he's also a fantastic monster BUT he does follow the rules Alex mentioned above , you know the Horns are big and curved , upper massive body over a smaller lower body....
If that minotaur had a human proportion torso for example ,then you can argue that its a fantastic monster and that no one has saw a real one ever , thats true , but people will probably feel it wrong , is that simple.

I just went through this thread from page 9, which is where I left off a while ago, and now I feel like crying. I want them all, but alas, I have no money.

I just quickphotoshopped it a bit to try to show better how some changes can make it look more integrated and conected in my opinion.
Softer flow on the mane and fur , and the no curved nose, also tryed to put the tooths where they could be without the clay/glue used to attach and the lower jaw a bit longer.
I put both images to help making comparison.

Before:
After:

The shop'd version reminds me more of a baboon facially now than a big cat type beast

I agree with other posters the orginal, has teeth/nose issues, but otherwise it's a good solid beast.

@weedy axe - I don't doubt it's killing power, just looks like a smaller mans axe next to his other weapon, stocky look of the weapon. But I do like the axe itself.

Guys,
What can I say? The head looks fine to me, I have the model in front of me right now and I see nothing wrong with a) how it was intended and b) how it has turned out.

Bobilero,
It's very kind of you to suggest how you think Maru should look, but to me what you've done makes him look like a wolf.

Maru's not changing - as far as I'm concerned, he's fine as he is and exactly how we intended him to be. You don't have to like him in any way, but it's pointless to tell me how he "should" look - because he looks exactly how we intended him to look.

Cheers

Rob

Maelstrom Games wrote:Guys,
What can I say? The head looks fine to me, I have the model in front of me right now and I see nothing wrong with a) how it was intended and b) how it has turned out.

Bobilero,
It's very kind of you to suggest how you think Maru should look, but to me what you've done makes him look like a wolf.

Maru's not changing - as far as I'm concerned, he's fine as he is and exactly how we intended him to be. You don't have to like him in any way, but it's pointless to tell me how he "should" look - because he looks exactly how we intended him to look.

Cheers

Rob

I agree, the after pic looks like a baboon. On another note, any word on the Bane Legions game?

I'm pretty sure Maru isn't meant to be a cat or a dog. He is routinely just called "a beast" in the flavor text. The term pantherine is used but the magic of the dictionary informs me that "pantherine" is merely panther-like especially in regards to color and then uses a pantherine snake as an example. So I'd put my money on it being a black beast. Even if they were using pantherine not in regards to color but in a specifically feline sense. Cat-like doesn't equal cat. Tere's no requirement for it to look like anything other than what it does. Conan is often compared to a panther by Howard but we don't expect him to actually look like one.

The fur is pretty subjective. When painted that style tends to lose the "clump" feel and conveys volume better than just having a mound of squiggly lines. Personally, I enjoy that style, but understand it may not be for everyone.

I am really curious to see the fixed teeth though as they're throwing me off big time at the moment.


Edit: Goodness many posts while I was typing including from Maelstrom.

Maelstrom Games wrote:Guys,
What can I say? The head looks fine to me, I have the model in front of me right now and I see nothing wrong with a) how it was intended and b) how it has turned out.

Bobilero,
It's very kind of you to suggest how you think Maru should look, but to me what you've done makes him look like a wolf.

Maru's not changing - as far as I'm concerned, he's fine as he is and exactly how we intended him to be. You don't have to like him in any way, but it's pointless to tell me how he "should" look - because he looks exactly how we intended him to look.

Cheers

Rob

Well , it's ok , the only thing that make me think about "Maru may need some tweaks" is the big difference existing on the concept draw by Stephan (wich everyone here seems to like) and the resulting miniature, thats why I thought something could be not as good as expected, asI'm assuming you was happy with the initial concept.
Also , I cannot agree totally with you being pointless to say you "how it should be" because A) the Miniature have some (inmy opinion) big differences with the initial concept, and B) I'm sure in the end what makes a miniature good or not is how well it sells , so maybe you like it , but I think in sales terms is more important the public will like it....

the bane demon is very cool so will get for sure, but it's considerably smaller than the FW bloodthirster.

The bloodthirster, IIRC, is about 8-9 inches to the top of it's head (12 inches with the axe/wings).

The bane demon is listed as 150 mm, which is about 5.9 inches tall.

Sanjay

Bobilero,
If you look, most of our miniatures differ from the concepts, for many different reasons; Maru is no exception. We asked Mohand (the sculptor) to make him slightly different to the concept for the simple reason that we wanted Maru to look more "monstrous" than "feline". I'm happy with Stef's concept, don't get me wrong; but it often occurs that a month or two months down the line from receiving that concept we'd like something a little different.

Regarding me stating that there is no point in telling me how a miniature should look - I would have thought that it was obvious that, as the creator and designer (alongside Tim) of our miniatures, if I'm happy with a miniature, then it won't change. It is pointless because of that reason. I will never change a miniature if it is exactly how I wanted it to turn out, regardless of what anybody else says.

I understand that you have an opinion on a miniature, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that - but equally, you need to respect that if we are happy with a miniature then that's how the miniature stays.

As for sales, I believe Maru will sell very nicely indeed - otherwise I wouldn't bring him to market. There are a couple of sculpts that have been done over the past six months that don't live up to our standards, and therefore they aren't at market yet.

The business of creating and making miniatures has to be controlled by the creator. Anything other than that means the end result is not what was intended. Opinions on miniatures vary from person to person; sometimes it is very amusing to see the reactions to our miniatures on forums or wherever compared to actual sales. I have to tell you, a miniatures manufacturer has to have a very thick skin in the days of the internet. Thankfully mine is extremely thick ;o)

What more can I say?

Apart from... here's Eirik:





Cheers

Rob

Oh dayum, he is so mine!

edit: just saw the mm height as well, he's huge!

StarFyre wrote:the bane demon is very cool so will get for sure, but it's considerably smaller than the FW bloodthirster.

The bloodthirster, IIRC, is about 8-9 inches to the top of it's head (12 inches with the axe/wings).

The bane demon is listed as 150 mm, which is about 5.9 inches tall.

Sanjay

Forge world thirster is way smaller than a lot of people think - 9 INCHES to top of axe - they never quote head height but it is around half of the total height of the mini - there should be some sort of convention that top of head height is always quoted-several manufacturers specialise in trying to make models look bigger by ridiculous long helms or weapons trying to stab passing clouds.

Maelstrom Games wrote:Apart from... here's Eirik:

Sah-weeeeet! I picked up Maagaan as my first dabble with Banelegions when I was tournie-ing at Maelstrom at the weekend, pretty sure he's getting a friend!

Krull is awesome. I'd actually consider buying him. That face is amazing.

BYE

Maelstrom Games wrote:Guys
I really appreciate you taking the time to post pictures of big cats, but I think you need to take a step back a little. Maru is a Swordtooth - he's not a big cat and nor is he a sabre-toothed cat, he's our version of a monstrous felid.
...
I don't quite know why Maru has evoked such opinion - I would have thought it was obvious he was a fantasy monster, myself, but what do I know...!

I think it's pretty obvious - while the "different" design may be by design (see what I did there?) clearly a lot of us would be interested in buying something similar if it did actually follow feline anatomy more accurately, and I think you're perhaps seeing a bit of disappointment on the board, as it "looks wrong". - unlike many of your other sculpts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eirik is very well sculpted, but the pose has gone from feasable and good looking in the concept art to not so good in the sculpted version. His right arm looks like it's been broken and I'm not sure a human can pull off the odd angle combination that his arms and the axe make due to the extreme over-rotation of his right forearm.

scipio.au wrote:...I'm not sure a human can pull off the odd angle combination that his arms and the axe make due to the extreme over-rotation of his right forearm.

I agree. I don't use an axe much, but just trying out the pose myself makes me feel it would work better if his right elbow was further forwards instead of being by his side.

Heh,
We all thought that when we saw Seb's work, too; but it turns out that it's entirely possible. I agree it takes your eye a bit of getting used to, and my eye immediately thought it wasn't correct, but after trying it - well, I can do it, and so can some of the fatties on our staff. Admittedly with a broom. So it can't be impossible, because we can bend ourselves that way.

Maybe someone would like to try it, and take a photo (not barechested though, eh?)

I'm happy with Eirik, very happy with him, just like I'm happy with Maru. As long as I'm happy then the sculpt is fine and we'll release it, regardless of what anybody else thinks. We will never, ever go down the route of canvassing opinion before we release a miniature, because that way madness lies and we aren't releasing what we want to release - we're releasing what we think people want, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Watch out for painted versions of December's releases over the next few weeks!

Cheers

Rob

I personally really like the model of Maru, it looks like a proper monster.
I also think that Eirik is amazing and it's an extremely high quality sculpt. Keep producing amazing things Maelstrom Games!

Has there been any word on game size? We looking at small skirmish (Infinity), medium skirmish (warmahordes), or mass battle (warhammer)?

I've always wanted a Hyborianesque fantasy game. The massive monsters are pure gravy. I can't wait to see more!

Maelstrom Games wrote:The Albainn are the Picts, pure and simple. They are not Scots - there is a difference, for the Scots were originally an Irish tribe, of course. Dál Riata will feature but that kingdom is totally subservient to the Albainn (as they were in reality at that time).

Very late to the party but I'd just like to make a slight correction to that comment.

Scots are not originally an Irish tribe. Scots were formed from the merging of the Picts and Gaels. Also incorporating peoples from a little farther south of the Pict and Goidelic areas and over the centuries some elements of Norse and Anglo-Saxon peoples.

Now the Latin term "Scoti" did indeed refer to an Irish tribe and the Irish settlers in what would become Scotland were given the same name, there was a period of dual use of the term between Scotland and Ireland when writing in Latin. All that is just etymology though, the actual people "The Scots" are a mixture as listed above.


All that pish aside though, keep up the good work, sure not all the models are to my personal taste but I can still see the amazing quality of design and sculpt in them and I have really high hopes for some of the up coming models which seem to be more my thing.


As a long time fan of Minotaurs and Beastmen I was blown away by Benoît Cosse's sculpts. I'd love to see a handful of smaller "normal" beastmen so the 4 heroes can be turned into a small raiding party.

Aside from that I'd love to see some of the more regal monsters get love alongside the more horrific creatures, Griffon, Pegasus, Unicorn...etc...

Wow, these seem worth the money.

I reckon maru looks awesome!

Same goes for erik

Maelstrom Games wrote:Heh,
We all thought that when we saw Seb's work, too; but it turns out that it's entirely possible. I agree it takes your eye a bit of getting used to, and my eye immediately thought it wasn't correct, but after trying it - well, I can do it, and so can some of the fatties on our staff. Admittedly with a broom. So it can't be impossible, because we can bend ourselves that way.

Can you then swing it over your head without dislocating various appendages?

I'm happy with Eirik, very happy with him, just like I'm happy with Maru. As long as I'm happy then the sculpt is fine and we'll release it, regardless of what anybody else thinks. We will never, ever go down the route of canvassing opinion before we release a miniature, because that way madness lies and we aren't releasing what we want to release - we're releasing what we think people want, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Of course, but like anything else open for public consumption, you have to accept some critisicm is going to happen. What I see on this forum is very kind compared to what I see on OSW and other forums that discuss 1:6 figures such as Hot Toys. - near picture-perfect likenesses having whiny internet geeks loudly proclaim "looks nothing like the actor" and so forth. At the same time, Dakka is a discussion forum, so you'll see people posit on why they like or dislike the various figures. It's cool to have you interacting on here, but just as you see it as pointless for people to tell you how they feel a figure "should" look, you'll have to accept that it's going to happen regardless and just not worry about it too much.

Speaking for myself at least, and hey, I like the sculpting, but I can't afford every miniature, and looking "wrong" to my eye takes it from something I'll eventually buy to something I won't. Same deal with Maru - and quite different to Krull and a few others (when I can justify the purchase).

Maelstrom Games wrote:Heh,
We all thought that when we saw Seb's work, too; but it turns out that it's entirely possible. I agree it takes your eye a bit of getting used to, and my eye immediately thought it wasn't correct, but after trying it - well, I can do it, and so can some of the fatties on our staff. Admittedly with a broom. So it can't be impossible, because we can bend ourselves that way.

Maybe someone would like to try it, and take a photo (not barechested though, eh?)

I'm happy with Eirik, very happy with him, just like I'm happy with Maru. As long as I'm happy then the sculpt is fine and we'll release it, regardless of what anybody else thinks. We will never, ever go down the route of canvassing opinion before we release a miniature, because that way madness lies and we aren't releasing what we want to release - we're releasing what we think people want, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Watch out for painted versions of December's releases over the next few weeks!

Cheers

Rob

Sorry mate, but the pose is NOT feasible indeed. I have tried it and it's simply impossible (note: I do yoga and I think that my flexibility is above the average).

The reasons for this are two:

1) The wrist of the right hand cannot twist as much as in the model. Whatever you might claim that you have tried in your studio you and your colleagues, it is IMPOSSIBLE. At least, without dislocating your wrist.
2) The pose of the sculpt is NOT exactly the same with the one of Eirik in the concept art piece. The left hand in the sculpt is not ankled as in the sketch and this is what makes the pose odd and impossible.

I appreciate that you like the sculpt, you are not going to change it, etc, but from the moment you post in a public forum not positive comments are also part of the game. Ok, it's your creation and all and you might don't want to admit your mistake by sticking to the "it is as it should be". Probably, you have envisioned a huge Viking that can take weird stances, in that case I will take your argument as valid. But then I also have the right to say that it is NOT as it should be, at least according to the rules of physics and human anatomy. And no, the fantasy-setting argument cannot work here. He's a human and humans do NOT bend that way.

Praetor24,
And I tell you, that pose is not impossible. I've done it. Some of the staff have done it. Ergo, it's not impossible, whatever you claim.

Believe me, we have a lot of back and forth between ourselves and the sculptors, and if we didn't believe it was right, we would have had it changed. It's not as if Seb just sent him to us without having any discussion about it. There is a large element of QC to each miniature we make.

I can't help what you believe, but I know Eirik's pose is perfectly feasible. <shrug> Not a lot more I can say, because I sense you won't be swayed on that, just like I won't be swayed. Let's just agree to disagree.

Cheers

Rob