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Your vision there is sound, but I think the tv move is the better medium.

You can tell more stories over a long period, and throw in the odd ‘villain of the week’ if you so wish,

This is why I also want a Solo or at least Crimson Dawn series. Those stories just seem better suited to the small screen,

In all truth, an Obi-wan series with McGregor probably isn't going to be far off of what it would have been as a film. There's always been the even movies and movies that fought for attention and studios have long been happy to release the latter without depending on them being a massive success. The only difference now is the success of things like Roma and Bird Box and likely even Adam Sandler's nonsense have the industry recognizing that a lot of these things might flop in theaters but find an audience in streaming.

Between Marvel, Star Wars, public domain interpretations and everything else; Disney has enough things that they'll start cannibalizing one another if they expand. Instead, the stuff that would have fought for second place is getting used to keep people invested in Plus.

 gorgon wrote:


Yeah, Jedi hobo chic threw me at the time also. It's another example of Lucas' obsession with explaining and linking *everything*. But to be fair, I also understand the usefulness of a 'uniform' to identify the Jedi on screen, and that Obi-Wan's Tatooine robes were an easy visual shorthand for accomplishing that.

There already was a Jedi uniform - Luke wore it in Return of the Jedi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How much is there for Obi-Wan to do on Tatooine that could sustain a series?

 Yodhrin wrote:
I think I see the problem here, you seem to be arguing with someone else entirely. Have a wee read back through the posts in this chain, and note the total absence of the word "Disney" anywhere.

As for the rest, if you can't discuss something without constantly trying to attribute arguments and emotional motivations to people they haven't actually expressed, there's little point in continuing to make arguments you'll only ignore - we disagree, and I'll leave it at that.

I'll apologize for the part about conflating Disney with Lucasfilm, it was more a thing I noticed in the thread to the point where I was starting to do it, and I didn't bother to check to see if you were also.

As for the latter, sure. Let's let bygones be bygones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Unt?

Contrary to a single report on a single website without corroboration, looks like Rian Johnson's trilogy is still a go at Disney

OH MY GA!

What does Unt mean!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

B) Have another Darth Maul cameo (but Maul and Obi-wan not quite meeting face to face since that happens later in Rebels)

They could always cap off the series with that same seven samurai fight, showing how Obi-Wan got there.

It’s German for ‘and’.

Why do I use it? Ancient telly programme reasons.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


Yeah, Jedi hobo chic threw me at the time also. It's another example of Lucas' obsession with explaining and linking *everything*. But to be fair, I also understand the usefulness of a 'uniform' to identify the Jedi on screen, and that Obi-Wan's Tatooine robes were an easy visual shorthand for accomplishing that.

There already was a Jedi uniform - Luke wore it in Return of the Jedi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How much is there for Obi-Wan to do on Tatooine that could sustain a series?

End slavery and bring true freedom to the peoples of the desert!
Fall in love, make way for the prophesied one, etc, etc.

It started as a joke and became a Dune/Star Wars crossover fanfic...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s German for ‘and’.

Why do I use it? Ancient telly programme reasons.

The
Bart
The

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Your vision there is sound, but I think the tv move is the better medium.

You can tell more stories over a long period, and throw in the odd ‘villain of the week’ if you so wish,

This is why I also want a Solo or at least Crimson Dawn series. Those stories just seem better suited to the small screen,

They're talking about a 6-8 episode series, which ultimately gives you the same run time as a movie trilogy, but without the massive wait time in between each installment.

Ha ha, as if Rian. Not a peep from the studio but Rian going to direct to the public with "I'm still working on this guys".

Who cares? Not a chance Lucasfilm allows him to further wreck the franchise's prospects after the TLJ debacle (by which I mean how fractured the fanbase is over it and how that eats into the profitability).

In the day of the Internet a fractured fan base may keep things relevant; we've seen in this thread how we just can't help ourselves and love to bicker! Then again, perhaps all that achieves is entrenching people into the positions of 'hater' or 'fanboy'?

Probably. It's not an outrageous suggestion that what Disney paid all that money for with SW was to get another Marvel ball rolling, with an 'Episode' film in alternating years and either an anthology film or some sort of alternate linked series (the hypothetical Crimson Dawn etc) in the off years, allowing a bit more creativity. Whilst the early MCU films weren't always the highest quality, they at least managed to keep the momentum of the series going, and it's not until very recently that there have been serious criticisms of a few specific movies (and that's specifically Captain Marvel and Black Panther, which have obvious triggers for a certain type of critic, regardless of the overall movie quality).

Sadly for Lucasfilm/Disney, TLJ poleaxed any gathering momentum for a similar SW run early on (personally I'm not a fan of TFA, it was too safe, but overall people accepted that SW was 'back'). The criticism wasn't a minor part of the reaction amidst a sea of fan enthusiasm, it came to totally define the reaction.

Maybe Star Wars was always doomed to be like this? Decades of personal investment by fans isn't easy to overcome. I guess some comic book fans aren't fans of how the MCU treats some stories/characters compared to the source either, but the films have such a larger outreach that those criticisms would seem quite small.

If thats the case I am not sure why Disney did this so wrong.

Both TFA and TLJ are really obvious remakes of the two earliest films - yeah they moved scenes around (and in TLJ) destroyed any attempt at pacing, coherent plot or characterisation, but there is very little new here.

Whereas in the MCU, the makers took comic characters and extracted (IMO) the best bits of them whilst also forging new directions and stories. I just don't see that in the recent films - is that becuase they were worried about fans or because they simply did not have the same quality of creative team? I don't know.

IMO everything points to a lack of confidence in not only the base material but also what can be done with it. I have not read the EU - is it really that bad that there was nothing for them to draw on to make a whole new Star Wars for a new generation whilst still rettaining links to the old?

 Riquende wrote:
The criticism wasn't a minor part of the reaction amidst a sea of fan enthusiasm, it came to totally define the reaction

I think this is a good bit. We're kind of past the point of debating whether or not TLJ was a good movie, kind of like we're long past the point of debating if the Prequels were good movies. The quality of films almost doesn't matter in the reflection of how the films have impacted the franchise as a whole.

I suppose the bright side is that TLJ need not be the end of SW. The Prequels were base breaking too when they came out, and enthusiasm and passion for the franchise lived on.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
The criticism wasn't a minor part of the reaction amidst a sea of fan enthusiasm, it came to totally define the reaction

I think this is a good bit. We're kind of past the point of debating whether or not TLJ was a good movie, kind of like we're long past the point of debating if the Prequels were good movies. The quality of films almost doesn't matter in the reflection of how the films have impacted the franchise as a whole.

I suppose the bright side is that TLJ need not be the end of SW. The Prequels were base breaking too when they came out, and enthusiasm and passion for the franchise lived on.

Well there is a third film so its not the end. Even then - Star Trek survived Nemesis - took a bit of time but it came back.

 ingtaer wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
The problem is Disney wanted to do something to recapture the magic of a New Hope. Then the neckbeards and incels bitched so the next film was something original and while the opening scene with the bombers is a let down, the rest of film was great. I love snarky Luke, the casino planet getting wrecked, Finn and Rose, Holdo's awesome last stand. etc. etc. But then the neckbeards and incels whined that it wasn't like the originals, and how dare women have agency.

Bottom line, is Disney's take on Star Wars may have it's flaws, but it's in a much better place then Star Wars was post Episode 3 Vader does a Noooooooo!

And that's where all these conversations fall down isn't it? It was the "neckbeards and incels" who done all the bitching and moaning, as opposed to the tens of thousands of just normal people who didn't like the films for what ever reason... It would be nice, just for once, to have this conversation like rational reasoning adults without people throwing histrionics, wild hyperbole or insults around.
How about lots of people didn't like the films because, shock I know, they didn't like it! That doesn't mean you cant like it, it doesn't matter one jot to me that you liked it when I didn't. I thought both new films were awful, the first because it tried to hard to be a New Hope mkii, the second because I thought the pacing was awful and the continuity was terrible.

My wife hadn’t seen any Star Wars movies until we got married. She enjoyed the prequels, seeing them as family style movies, liked the original trilogy, thought TFA was “ok”, and begged me not to ever go to the theater again for SW after TLJ. I’d call her the opposite of a SW fanatic. TLJ was just a bad movie. And we’re voting with our wallets for all SW theatrical releases after it.

Fantastic news that Ewan is interested in a tv show, but to be honest I'm content with the Scott Miller novel, and they'll just wipe that out of canon. Thats not to say they can't best it, but it was a good story for our favourite mature jedi gentleman.

Whatever happens, Ewan deserves a fair crack of the whip with an experienced director, which he didn't have on the prequels. Second chance etc...

 Mr Morden wrote:
If thats the case I am not sure why Disney did this so wrong.

It's not really Disney, it's Lucasfilm being left to their own devices. When was the last time Lucasfilm actually made a unquestionably good, big film? An unadulterated commercial and critical success? I just had a perusal of their filmography and I think it's 1989's Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade...

I have not read the EU - is it really that bad that there was nothing for them to draw on to make a whole new Star Wars for a new generation whilst still rettaining links to the old?

Well no, there's some really good stuff in there, and Rebels has mined its fair share, lifting Thrawn out wholesale as well as things like the TIE Defender, AT-PT & more. Of course I'd have liked to have seen more plot points and characters woven into things, but maybe there's an issue with paying the original authors?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
The criticism wasn't a minor part of the reaction amidst a sea of fan enthusiasm, it came to totally define the reaction

I think this is a good bit. We're kind of past the point of debating whether or not TLJ was a good movie, kind of like we're long past the point of debating if the Prequels were good movies. The quality of films almost doesn't matter in the reflection of how the films have impacted the franchise as a whole.

I suppose the bright side is that TLJ need not be the end of SW. The Prequels were base breaking too when they came out, and enthusiasm and passion for the franchise lived on.

Well there is a third film so its not the end. Even then - Star Trek survived Nemesis - took a bit of time but it came back.

Speaking of Sta Trek, SW could learn a lot from that franchise. When Kirk, Spock, and co were played out, Star Trek the Next Generation took the franchise to new heights. DS9 did its own thing, and is considered the highlight of the franchise. Voyager and Enterprise tried to hit all the old notes again, stick to the formula, etc. and they killed the franchise.

The Skywalker story is done. The story of the Rebellion and the Empire is done. The setting has plenty of potential, but rehashing the same stories and sticking with the same characters is stifling the franchise.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Speaking of Sta Trek, SW could learn a lot from that franchise. When Kirk, Spock, and co were played out, Star Trek the Next Generation took the franchise to new heights. DS9 did its own thing, and is considered the highlight of the franchise. Voyager and Enterprise tried to hit all the old notes again, stick to the formula, etc. and they killed the franchise.

I think this is an overly simplistic take on it, to be honest. I know Voyager is the series fans love to hate, but I'll watch out over TNG most days, and it did well when it actually aired, IIRC.

The problem with Enterprise wasn't the formula, it was that it broke continuity and the crew were just dull. That, combined with Insurrection and Nemesis being less than stellar was more responsible for 'killing' the franchise... But even then, it was lack of interest by the rights holders, rather than lack of interest by fans, that caused such a long wait for anything new.


I do agree though that it would be nice to see Lucasfilm tackle some new ground with Star Wars, so fingers crossed that the Mandalorian is good and does well, so they don't get scared off that approach like they did with Solo.

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Speaking of Sta Trek, SW could learn a lot from that franchise. When Kirk, Spock, and co were played out, Star Trek the Next Generation took the franchise to new heights. DS9 did its own thing, and is considered the highlight of the franchise. Voyager and Enterprise tried to hit all the old notes again, stick to the formula, etc. and they killed the franchise.

I think this is an overly simplistic take on it, to be honest. I know Voyager is the series fans love to hate, but I'll watch out over TNG most days, and it did well when it actually aired, IIRC.

The problem with Enterprise wasn't the formula, it was that it broke continuity and the crew were just dull. That, combined with Insurrection and Nemesis being less than stellar was more responsible for 'killing' the franchise... But even then, it was lack of interest by the rights holders, rather than lack of interest by fans, that caused such a long wait for anything new.


I do agree though that it would be nice to see Lucasfilm tackle some new ground with Star Wars, so fingers crossed that the Mandalorian is good and does well, so they don't get scared off that approach like they did with Solo.

Yes, Star Wars needs a Deep Space Nine. Either Knights of the Old Republic, or something about a different group during the Civil War, etc. Hell, even something decades before the Prequels could give territory to mine for a story.

I'd say KotR has already been Star Wars' DS9 once. The original RPGs were smash hits. Bioware was popular and well known before to be sure, but Knights of the Old Republic is what made them a household name (in gamer house holds) and elevated them to the level of "best in the business" for Western RPGs. This happened right after Attack of the Clones devestated the fan base with how awful it was. Like sand. See? It was so awful its own lines don't even work as insults directed in its direction!

Lets do it again

 LordofHats wrote:
I'd say KotR has already been Star Wars' DS9 once. The original RPGs were smash hits. Bioware was popular and well known before to be sure, but Knights of the Old Republic is what made them a household name (in gamer house holds) and elevated them to the level of "best in the business" for Western RPGs. This happened right after Attack of the Clones devestated the fan base with how awful it was. Like sand. See? It was so awful its own lines don't even work as insults directed in its direction!

Lets do it again

That is kinda true, even though with the Disney acquisition, KOTOR is non-canon, another Heir to the Empire-style example of "non-canon" EU that is far better than anything of the prequels or the modern trilogy. The Bioware mini-movies from the Old Republic MMO feel more Star Wars to me than anything of the modern trilogy.

I’ve said it before, but this to me is one of the failures of the Prequel Trilogy; they left Anakin turning to the dark side too late, resulting in the stupid, stupid, Order 66 montage.

If they’d had him turn earlier (IMHO, at the end of the second film), you could have shown him “help hunt down and destroy the Jedi” (just like Obi-Wan described in the OT) in the third film. This would have left room for a whole wealth of stories between the films of Jedi on the run, trying to rescue and preserve key Jedi artifacts, more of the invasion and insurgency on Jedha shown in Rogue One, etc, etc.

 Jadenim wrote:
I’ve said it before, but this to me is one of the failures of the Prequel Trilogy; they left Anakin turning to the dark side too late, resulting in the stupid, stupid, Order 66 montage.

If they’d had him turn earlier (IMHO, at the end of the second film), you could have shown him “help hunt down and destroy the Jedi” (just like Obi-Wan described in the OT) in the third film. This would have left room for a whole wealth of stories between the films of Jedi on the run, trying to rescue and preserve key Jedi artifacts, more of the invasion and insurgency on Jedha shown in Rogue One, etc, etc.

Personally, the prequels were good as they were, and was hoping they would cover the jedi-hunt and Vader's inner conflict in another movie inbetween ROTS and ANH. Rebels did at least explore that with Asoka and Vader at the end of season 2, which is probably one of the more memorable moments in SW, to be fair.

OMG, Rogue One. Love that movie! They missed a big opportunity for Vader to hunt down the last remaining Jedi who could have easily have been Donnie Yen! The plans have been stolen, the rebels have won their first major victory and the last of the jedi knights has been exterminated! It would have given a point to Vader being in the movie besides his "Don't stop me now" moment and unleashing the big daddy of all dad jokes.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
I’ve said it before, but this to me is one of the failures of the Prequel Trilogy; they left Anakin turning to the dark side too late, resulting in the stupid, stupid, Order 66 montage.

If they’d had him turn earlier (IMHO, at the end of the second film), you could have shown him “help hunt down and destroy the Jedi” (just like Obi-Wan described in the OT) in the third film. This would have left room for a whole wealth of stories between the films of Jedi on the run, trying to rescue and preserve key Jedi artifacts, more of the invasion and insurgency on Jedha shown in Rogue One, etc, etc.

Personally, the prequels were good as they were, and was hoping they would cover the jedi-hunt and Vader's inner conflict in another movie inbetween ROTS and ANH. Rebels did at least explore that with Asoka and Vader at the end of season 2, which is probably one of the more memorable moments in SW, to be fair.

OMG, Rogue One. Love that movie! They missed a big opportunity for Vader to hunt down the last remaining Jedi who could have easily have been Donnie Yen! The plans have been stolen, the rebels have won their first major victory and the last of the jedi knights has been exterminated! It would have given a point to Vader being in the movie besides his "Don't stop me now" moment and unleashing the big daddy of all dad jokes.

Meh, the Phantom Menace was a huge waste of a film. It had like ten minutes of stuff that was actually important to the franchise. They could have covered everything that happens in the first two movies in the first movie if they cut all the dumb spectacle stuff. Have it end with the start of the clone wars, have the second movie be the clone wars and show the idealistic republic dragged down into grinding war that threatened the very soul of the republic (also, have the clones be the enemy and have one of the main characters be a regular joe who joined the Army of the Republic all full of ideals only to be disillusioned by inept generals (Jedi maybe) throwing lives away ) and then the third movie could have been Anakin's fall and the hunting down of the Jedi - and he could casually murder the regular joe guy halfway through for not following orders to show how far the republic and he had fallen.

As far as going forward, I want to see the schism that led to the Jedi casting out the darksiders and the fallout from that - how they over embraced the light side and started themselves on the path of eventual ruin by trying to cut all emotion and bonds of friendship and family from a group that is supposed to safeguard the galaxy for those same values. I want to see the Great Hyperspace War, when the darksiders came back with the original Sith and fought the republic. I want them to use Sith Alchemy and the Jedi to fight back with Protosabers, and how the war created the Jedi and Republic as we know them, 5000 years in the past.

I'd be down for a film based on the Force Wars comic series.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Unt?

Contrary to a single report on a single website without corroboration, looks like Rian Johnson's trilogy is still a go at Disney

Hmm. Well, it is according to Rian anyway. I'll believe Iger is letting Lucasfilm be that dumb when we see a quote from them on the matter that's a bit fresher than Kennedy's words from the original announcement two years ago.

In other, potentially indicative news - Resistance is a goner. People seem to be leading with the "it's just a natural place to end it, there's nowhere else to go" line, but scrolling down a wee bit you note what is more likely to be the reason it was "naturally" allowed to die off - it did terribly with adult(18-49) fans, its ratings were consistently down 30-50% on Rebels, and it evidently failed to produce the bump in Sequel-era toy sales Disney were hoping for as a result. I mean, for real, does anyone believe that if the show was blowing the ratings and toy sales out of the water, they wouldn't have found some plot thread to spin off from after RoS?

 Bromsy wrote:

Meh, the Phantom Menace was a huge waste of a film. It had like ten minutes of stuff that was actually important to the franchise. They could have covered everything that happens in the first two movies in the first movie if they cut all the dumb spectacle stuff. Have it end with the start of the clone wars, have the second movie be the clone wars and show the idealistic republic dragged down into grinding war that threatened the very soul of the republic (also, have the clones be the enemy and have one of the main characters be a regular joe who joined the Army of the Republic all full of ideals only to be disillusioned by inept generals (Jedi maybe) throwing lives away ) and then the third movie could have been Anakin's fall and the hunting down of the Jedi - and he could casually murder the regular joe guy halfway through for not following orders to show how far the republic and he had fallen.

As far as going forward, I want to see the schism that led to the Jedi casting out the darksiders and the fallout from that - how they over embraced the light side and started themselves on the path of eventual ruin by trying to cut all emotion and bonds of friendship and family from a group that is supposed to safeguard the galaxy for those same values. I want to see the Great Hyperspace War, when the darksiders came back with the original Sith and fought the republic. I want them to use Sith Alchemy and the Jedi to fight back with Protosabers, and how the war created the Jedi and Republic as we know them, 5000 years in the past.

Phantom Menace - in a nutshell - actually has a good story to it with many layers, but the way its told is soooo damn awkward that it fails to convey it to the audience in a credible way. For example, you have two worlds - Naboo and Tatooine. Padme and Anakin. One takes pride in itself and its people and the other is cruel and neglects its people. Freedom and slavery. Neither has the respect of the larger republic, but Naboo is able to stand up for itself, while Tatooine is doomed to oppression under criminal activity.

Naboo's ability to earn its freedom relies on its two main species working together. And that is where George loses us. Character wise the two races are portrayed as Padme and Binks - but where TPM should have shown the respect and friendship between these two characters - Binks is spent trying to provide slapstick comedy, while Padme has almost no interaction with Binks to suggest such a friendship and clearly has no interest in Binks apart from his people are warriors and he knows where they live.

Speaking of which, Binks is inbetween Padme and Anakin where freedom is concerned(life debt and exiled), and had the potential to be a bridge of understanding between Padme and Anakin - them being from completely different cultures. In some parts the actors come across as if Binks isn't even in the room and the audience is left scratching its head as to why George even had the character in the film.

Attack of the Clones...the fall of Anakin is mirrored by the fall of the republic. Both are vulnerable to suggestion and retreating into a secret, double life of darkness. Sadly, neither is delivered in a convincing manner. The story of the skywalkers - when its done properly - is really the story of the entire galaxy, much like Scarlet's story in Gone with the Wind is really the story of the American South. Empire is the best so far, because when Luke duels Vader in the cloud city, it represents the greater battle happening in the galaxy - Vader is the overwhelming empire, Luke is the struggling resistence. No grand space battle this time, but the way the duel is portrayed we actually feel like its the battle for the soul of the galaxy itself. The first two prequels fail to deliver that.

I think I’m in a minority in that I actually quite like TPM, it’s the most complete standalone film of the prequels, but I see what Bromsy is getting at, in that an awful lot that happens is irrelevant to the overall plot arc. Now it could be argued that having that slow burn, where Darth Sidious is this unexplained malevolence, floating in the background, is a good thing, but by forcing the films into another trilogy, it makes the other two feel very rushed, as they have to cover a lot of ground.

Of course there are a few things I think are errors / missed opportunities in TPM; Jar Jar is overplayed into a complete goofball, putting the droids in just doesn’t make sense (and directly contradicts ANH) and I think it was a missed opportunity not to have Naboo be Alderaan, as that could have enhanced the OT by giving you a connection to this peaceful planet that the Empire obliterate at a whim, but the biggest mistake is Anakin is way too young. It makes everything about his journey feel forced from the get go.

Well, the choice to make Anakin young and Jar Jar portrayed as a Roger Rabbit-like toon was an obvious marketing decision, it was to get a new generation of kids into Star Wars merchandise. It wasn't for the story.