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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Had a game against Grey Knights. Just sharing. Lost but it was a close game. Final score 78 to 72. And I am new to Thousand Sons. Enjoyed it alot and learnt alot of stuff. Will continue to tweak my army.

So, after getting shot off the board despite trying so hide as much as I could against a prior admech army. (Though I still managed to score over 60 VP). I went for minimum rubric squads instead of warpflamer squads because I wanted even more bodies on the table. So my list was as follows:

Cult of Change Batallion
DP with sword, Aetherstride, Capricious Crest

Ahriman on disk

1 unit of 10 Tzaangors
2 units of 10 cultists
1 unit of Rubrics with 1 Soupreaper

Tzaangor Shaman with Seeker after shadows
1 unit of 5 Occult Termines w Hellfire, soulreaper

2 Hellbrutes with Multimeltas and infernal combi

2 units of 5 spawn each (So 10 spawn total!)

Tsons Patrol of Duplicity

HQ: Infernal Master

3 units of 5 rubrics (barebones).

1 unit of Occult w hellfire, Soul reaper


My strategy was to stay on 2 objectives, try and get 10 each turn, whittle down the opponent, then on turn 4 or 5, try and go for a 15. The army has a lot of wounds to chew through and if many units are within support range of each other, anyone coming close would suffer a ton of MW and shooting and even melee damage.

So I took the secondaries: To the Last, Retrieve Octarius Data and Mental Interrogation.

My reasoning was that my army is built for To The Last. If I play conservative, its not easy to get to my To the Last Units, which were the 2 Occut squads and Ahriman. I put my 2 cultist squads into reserve for ROD, and Grey knights are a very elite army, so it should be hard for him to screen out effectively. Finally, my first time taking mental interrogation (I usually take warp ritual).

So I maxed out To The Last. all 3 units survived. I maxed out ROD. Psychic interrogation, we played it that I maxed it out. But we both didn't read the secondary close enough. Actually, I can only mental interrogate a character. I assumed that because grey knights units are all psykers, I could interrogate any psyker. But just because they are psykers doesn't make them a character. In hindsight, I would have just taken just warp ritual instead now. I spent 8 cabal points every turn to make sure the ritual cannot be denied. So, there was literally nothing my opponent can do to stop my rituals.

So, Tsons are amazing at secondaries play. Primaries was where I lost. And this was likely from my inexperience.

My opponent had experience with both playing Grey knights as well as Tsons. So, he respected my army's psychic power and firepower. Similarly, I had seen enough youtube videos to know that Grey knight psychic power can be as devastating as Tsons, and once they get into close combat, they can really chop up stuff. So I screened with my Chaos Spawn and my Tzaangors or just Rubric marines. I built up multiple layers of lines and defense. It worked in a sense. His entire army was built for close combat, yet he didn't dare to come close to charge or fight at all. Because anything that charged the screens would die horribly the next turn for sure because it would be in range to be smited and shot and charged to death.

The reason I lost was on primary. He spread out more aggressive, and focused on trading units to knock me off objectives. I had one objective most of my army was on, and we had two objectives that were being traded on. He kept me off those two objectives just enough such that I scored 5 on turn 2 and 3. I would throw a Tzaangor squad on one or a rubric marines on another. And he would focus enough fire power and smites or charge in a sacrificial dreadknight and kill off whatever was on that objective. Only on turn 3 did I manage to move my entire army onto two objectives such that he didn't dare to risk challenging them any more. Meanwhile, I gave him free rein of the rest of the board, although my cultists did come in to do ROD.

I could have yeeted sacirifical rubric squads each turn for more damage, but I already had easy targets on the contested objectives and didn't see the gain of sacrificing rubric squads for zero gain. He had three separate "death balls" that one rubric marine squad even with doombolt and smite and shooting cannot possibly kill.

So, in the end, I lost because of primaries from my own inexperience. Should have pushed forward aggressively on the flank most of my army was in aggressively one turn earlier. Would have probably swept that flank.

In the end, I lost only one rubric marine squad and the cultists. I killed two dreadknights, a big squad of 10 strikes? 10 interceptors ? And that was it. We talked out the last turn because it didn't matter. He teleported in a big squad of 10 which did nothing in shooting and failed their charge anyway. And it didn't matter if I killed that squad or not anyway.

So, I actually might keep the cultist squads in my list. having the option to put cheap screens in front of my army feels good. You shoot them off, no one gets the objective. You charge in and kill them, next turn my whole army jumps on you. Cultists seem about the same as Tzaangors really because the firepower in the game right now is so lethal and 10 tzaangors are just as frail as 10 cultists.

I liked the two units of 5 spawn. I threw weaver on them every turn and when I pushed them onto an objective. He didn't even try and push or shoot them off. 20 wounds on a 4++ is too hard to chew threw.

The hellbrutes were there to keep him honest and counter charge in melee. But they were very slow, moving at 6 inches. I might drop 1 hellbrute. Or maybe I just didn't play them aggressive enough because I kept them as a counter charge melee unit.

Still learning how best to play Tsons. We are really good with secondaries. And I do think primaries we can be decent too. I am just glad I wasn't tabled the way many Tsons armies got tabled by Grey Knights on the youtube battle reports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A bit more on Rubrics and Occults. I think both are great. But I like to take "to the last" secondary, but the issue with taking big ten man squads of rubrics and Occults is that these units become your "to the last" units. And then you start to play them very conservatively. Occults are still ok played from range because they have great range output. But rubrics are meant to be trading pieces and you want to aggressively push them onto an objectives you want. So, you don't want a big unit of rubrics which you can't use that way.

I suppose we could find another secondary but so far, I think "to the last" is a good secondary for Tsons. If we keep a big block of rubric with our characters safe (either far back or behind obscuring), its extremely hard to kill it and that protects our characters too. And because we can have Exalted or Ahriman on a disk, or flying DP, our characters can zip out 12 inches (or more), cast a bunch of psychic, and then get temporal surge back into safety again. This also extends the range of our psychic attacks.

So, unless you can hide your whole army from us or keep it so far back that even a 12 inches move plus 18 inch range psychic cannot hit you... its impossible to avoid taking some sort of psychic damage from us.

So, to the last is a great secondary for me, and it fits well with a big bloc of rubric or occult that protects our characters too. But what happens is it makes me not want to take risks with them. As long as that big bloc doesn't die, my characters can't die, and I am guaranteed 15 points at the end of the game. So, I might play too conservatively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/10 05:51:44


 
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




This is the only thing I don’t like about Terminators and 10-man Rubric squads, they make it impossible to take TTL on your HQs.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think I will try throwing a squad of 5 spawn with 4++ plus two squads of min rubrics onto an objective next time to see how that goes. That's 40 wounds with invul saves to chew through. And if a single rubric survives to stand on that point, they lose it. And if they get obsec on the point as well, they will have to fight 5 spawn and 10 rubrics plus outnumber the whole shebag in order to take it away from me.

Hmm, I might need more rubric squads in my list ... lol
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp






Dimmamar

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, I might need more rubric squads in my list ... lol


The more I look at my lists and play, the more this stands out to me as the answer. Which I find really exciting--the core Troop unit of the book, that thematically should be en masse, is actually a really great choice??! Yes please! In both this book and GK, whose core Troops also got an incredible boost, I think GW did a good job for once.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 4500 2000 2500

"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
"By time I mean that which is indicated by some changing motion." City of God, Book XII Ch 16 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





First thanks for the write up, all information is appreciated about actual games instead of just theory-hammer. However, I think it is hard to gleam to much from a game against the Grey Knights. Grey Knight v. Thousand Sons match ups are probably one of, if not the, most unique match ups in 40k due to the specialization of both being essentially all psyker armies.

I like your idea on using Until the Last, however, as you said it does make a player more conservative with those units, and we don't really have a lot of units on the board. Using Until the Last with Time Cult would be really good however, bring 1 to 2 models back basically every turn.

I would suggest Warpflamer Rubrics. Even just a squad of 5 puts in some serious work. Since they can advance and shoot they have a pretty big threat range, especially with Temporal Surge. And they are nice front line units against melee armies due to the fact that their overwatch can be devastating. I am thinking of my builds being 2-3 Scarab Terminator 5 man squads, with 2-3 5 man warp flamer units for pushing up the field, with one 10 man rubric bolter squad holding the back objective using the +6 range power to shoot at 30". I plan on filling in with like 4 castors of various varieties, some hellbrute AT fire power, and some screens.

I have a few games set for this weekend, so hopefully I will be able to report back next week with some good feed back.

   
Made in us
Gangly Grot Rebel




I'm going To the last every game in GT.

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Kebabcito wrote:
I'm going To the last every game in GT.


Yeah, I feel that although To the Last secondary encourages conservative play with a big bloc and your characters, it is also the best way to ensure a Tsons army doesn't make bad mistakes. If you start throwing in 10 man occult squads aggressively onto midboard objectives or into enemy deployment zones. Let's just say, one thing for sure I have observed about a Tsons army. Once your regular units die, your characters soon follow suit, and once your characters are stuck fighting in combat or dead, your power goes down drastically.

So To the Last dovetails very well with how we want to play a typical Tsons army. We want one big squad surviving right to the end of the game along with at least most or all of our characters hiding behind that big block safely for 5 turns, doing their psychic every turn. Literally everything else can die, and our psychic offensive output will hardly be affected even on turn 5. That's pretty powerful considering that's our main thing.

And its a very easy 15 points. Because our characters can fly advance out 12 inches, then temporal surge back to safety. And the big bloc is protecting many characters. Even if it doesn't fight, its doing its job. The termie block is almost impossible to kill in one turn. And if its depleted because you poked it head out to shoot, you can bring back an Occult with the strategem, or with the time spell, or you can simply duck back behind cover and stay there safely all game. And I doubt if any artillery firing out of line of sight is able to delete a big block of Occults no matter how many rounds of firing it tries.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/11 07:52:28


 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





The other nice thing with To the Last is a lot of armies will take Abhor the Witch against us. Conservative play is key to preventing them from maxing out that secondary.

In some ways Abhor the Witch could be an advantage for us as it forces our opponent to come to us to get their secondaries. Hopefully meaning we win if both players do nothing all game, making us the defender and our opponent the attacker, giving us a tempo advantage.

Personally, I still hate Abhor the Witch as it forces us to play very defensively which limits our play styles.

All that being said my main problem with To the Last is it's very hard for us to make our characters the to the last targets if you want to run large rubric squads or scarabs. I do like keeping a larger flamer squad of rubrics back until turns 3-4-5 where they become exponentially more powerful and harder to kill. Also with duplicity you can save the 1-2 last models of the squad by teleporting to safety if your opponent isn't careful. So with some practice you can definitely make it work.


 
   
Made in es
Gangly Grot Rebel




With banners, to the last and mutant landscape you can play defensive with magic cult waiting for 24" full nuke punishment.

Fast charger armies will counter this gameplay but with 4x5 rubrics and chaos spawns, the opponent can have some troubles for reaching the DP+termis

Orks 5000p 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





Kebabcito wrote:
With banners, to the last and mutant landscape you can play defensive with magic cult waiting for 24" full nuke punishment.


Never really thought of banners. I'll have to give that a try.

Kebabcito wrote:

Fast charger armies will counter this gameplay but with 4x5 rubrics and chaos spawns, the opponent can have some troubles for reaching the DP+termis


I've found Sorcerous Facade (duplicity) and 1-2 rubrics in strategic reserve works quite well against fast assault armies. But that might just be because I run mostly flamer rubrics.


 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Rubric squads feel a bit catch 22 to me

Big squads ruin TTL stratagy

MSU gives easy abhor (if you only got 3 big team, one rubric and a few chars, it's actually not that bad if we ain't getting crushed anyway)

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Although having one or two large squads to act like wrecking balls or anchor points does have it's merit.

My mate plays with a 10 man occult termie unit and occasionally a 10 warpflamer unit too. Though i'm not sure if he uses Risen or not.

With unwavering and glamour that's one hell of a brick to remove. Yeah it can't move too much, but if you get on a point damn you're staying on that point.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





This list went WWWWL - beating Orks (Boyz/Goffs), SW, TS w/ 10 man Scarabs, and Sisters. Lost to #1 DE 94 to 56

Most quirky unit is his super fighty Exalted using Aetherstride on top of Thrydderghyre and +1W&A using "Warptime" and "Diabolic".

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [63 PL, 10CP, 11 Cabal Points, 1,200pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Mutation

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Sorcerous Arcana [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics

+ HQ +

Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]: 11. Gaze of Hate, 13. Doombolt, 23. Baleful Devolution, Disc of Tzeentch

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 145pts]: 22. Swelled by the Warp, 23. Temporal Surge, 6. Aetherstride, Disc of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Paradigm of Change, Prosperine khopesh, Thrydderghyre, Warlord

Infernal Master [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 21. Presage, 5. Glimpse of Eternity, 6. Malefic Maelstrom, Umbralefic Crystal

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 105pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 21. Temporal Manipulation, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 105pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 23. Temporal Surge, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 129pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 32. Pyric Flux, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 4x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 4x Warpflamer

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts]: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts]: Chaos Spawn

+ Heavy Support +

Forgefiend [8 PL, 160pts]: 2x Heavy Hades autocannons, Forgefiend jaws

Forgefiend [8 PL, 160pts]: 2x Heavy Hades autocannons, Forgefiend jaws

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [40 PL, -3CP, 7 Cabal Points, 800pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Time

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

+ HQ +

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, -1CP, 3 Cabal Points, 160pts]: 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, 23. Temporal Surge, Athenaean Scrolls, Disc of Tzeentch, High Acolytes, Immaterial Echo, Prosperine khopesh, Rehati, Warpflame pistol

Sorcerer [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, 22. Weaver of Fates, Force sword, Inferno Bolt Pistol

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 105pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 21. Temporal Manipulation, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

+ Elites +

Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]: 2x Hellfyre missile rack
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 31. Empyric Guidance, Inferno combi-bolter, Rites of Coalescence
. 7x Terminator: 7x Inferno combi-bolter, 7x Prosperine khopesh
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Soulreaper cannon
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Soulreaper cannon

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/13 12:25:42


   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




I’ve been using a cult of Mutation in crusade and have been thinking about giving that aetherstride/disc with a Stave Abominus a whirl, also seeker of shadows on a terminator sorceror with Exalted Mutation has been good, but I’m starting to see that a sorceror in a rhino could be better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 17:29:04


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Runt Nosher wrote:
I’ve been using a cult of Mutation in crusade and have been thinking about giving that aetherstride/disc with a Stave Abominus a whirl.


Sounds like it could be a pretty effective horde-clearer.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR


Hey folks, quick question here:

Now that the dex has been around for a bit, and people have gotten to play around with it. Are rubric squads with all flamers and a reaper good or not?

My confession: I love flamers, I would adore an army filled to the brim with fiery goodness :-)

...but I've been told several times now that such squads are just not competitive, that you die at range well before getting into toasty toasty flamer goodness. Then, if that wasn't bad enough, you die to close-combat directly after toasting the enemy once.

My store is pretty casual, but still I don't want to just get shot off the board or diced into puree every match.

Also: I'm fairly certain I've asked this question before, so sorry about that. It's just that the idea still appeals to me and I'm hoping someone will chime in with a story of running about a million flamer marines and having it work out just dandy.

Thoughts?
   
Made in ca
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





The Frozen North

Warpflamers were considered pretty weak in the previous Codex - but with the 9th edition Codex release, Warpflamers are considered the competitive option. So, go nuts! Make sure you run Duplicity and use Risen Rubricae for maximum fiery goodness.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





And there is a relic staff you can give the unit champ to give you yet another source of magical flame.
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Boardman, OH

So after years of avoiding 1k Sons the new codex finally got me to buy in(I already have about 1200pts). The Alpha Legion player in me screams to play Cult of Duplicity.

I currently have a bunch of Rhinos, Heldrakes, a couple of Helbrutes, Predators, Demon Princes, and 2 Maulerfiends from playing vanilla CSM. I also have Arhiman on disc, 2 10 man Rubric squads(Icon, Soul Reaper) 10 unbuilt Rubrics, 10 Tzangors with blades, and 5 Scarab termies. I'll probably build the 10 Rubrics all with flamers to teleport to the enemy backfield. I know I'll probably pick up Magnus and an Exalted Sorcerer on disc. Anything else I should grab to flesh out?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/14 03:05:25


Tons!
2,000pts

My ongoing Alpha Legion and Yme-loc P&M Blog
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/675338.page

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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790547.page 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Spawns are actually in a good place in TS list.

Cheap, has sneaky punch and probably one of the better "trade up" unit in TS' repository.

One thing I do have my eye on and seeing if I can make it work, is a full unit of Tzaangor Enlighted with bows.... 6x strength 5, ap -1, 1 dmg shots that ignores Look Out Sir! and always hits on 2+ at 30" range. Seems ripe for some salty plinking.

6000
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4000

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Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






leerm02 wrote:

Hey folks, quick question here:

Now that the dex has been around for a bit, and people have gotten to play around with it. Are rubric squads with all flamers and a reaper good or not?

My confession: I love flamers, I would adore an army filled to the brim with fiery goodness :-)

...but I've been told several times now that such squads are just not competitive, that you die at range well before getting into toasty toasty flamer goodness. Then, if that wasn't bad enough, you die to close-combat directly after toasting the enemy once.

My store is pretty casual, but still I don't want to just get shot off the board or diced into puree every match.

Also: I'm fairly certain I've asked this question before, so sorry about that. It's just that the idea still appeals to me and I'm hoping someone will chime in with a story of running about a million flamer marines and having it work out just dandy.

Thoughts?



Soulreaper is great.
Warpflamer is great.

The two very much do not belong in the same squad though.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer





leerm02 wrote:

...but I've been told several times now that such squads are just not competitive, that you die at range well before getting into toasty toasty flamer goodness. Then, if that wasn't bad enough, you die to close-combat directly after toasting the enemy once.


The thing people miss with warpflamers are:

1) They are now 12" range, this means you can use them when coming in from reserve. Works wonders with duplicity.

2) They are assault making your rubrics movement 7-12" that's an average of a 50% movement increase. It's also unpredictable which makes it hard for your oppoent to plan around. Do they position themselves to be safe by being more than 24" away (assuming you always roll a 6 for advance). Or a more risky position at 22"? On the flip side you aren't taking any risk. You only need to move the rubrics if they roll high enough to get within range.

3) They make it very hard for you opponent to quantify their damage output. On average 4 bolter rubrics in rapid fire range score 5.3 hits with a maximum of 8 hits. 4 warpflamer rubrics score 14 hits with a maximum of 24 hits.

4) Overwatch and Inescapable Forewarning. You can't just charge them, you can't just deepstrike next to them.

5) 9th is very terrain heavy and played on a much smaller board 12" range isn't the handicap it used to be.

What you have is basically a units that is almost impossible for your opponent to account for, honestly it's just a nightmare. Sometimes the threat of something is more powerful that the thing itself. Warpflamer rubrics change the way your opponent plays. They're Dirty Harry constantly asking your opponent if they are feeling lucky?

EDIT: Also personally I think spending a CP to take the flamer relic is just a bad choice. We are CP starved enough as is. 1CP is worth so much more than d6 S5 flamer shots.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/14 12:39:29



 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 Mushkilla wrote:
EDIT: Also personally I think spending a CP to take the flamer relic is just a bad choice. We are CP starved enough as is. 1CP is worth so much more than d6 S5 flamer shots.


Agreed ! When I faced off against space wolves I brought a squad of 10 warpflamer wielding Rubrics. Twice I toasted squads of bladeguards and blood claws (maybe ? don't remember the name) with the help of empyreal flames and twice I didn't even need the warpflame pistol of the aspiring Sorcerer. Even less so the relic I spent 1 CP to give him

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp






Dimmamar

 whembly wrote:
One thing I do have my eye on and seeing if I can make it work, is a full unit of Tzaangor Enlighted with bows.... 6x strength 5, ap -1, 1 dmg shots that ignores Look Out Sir! and always hits on 2+ at 30" range. Seems ripe for some salty plinking.


The math on this....
Against T3 with a 5++ (some Guard and Xenos?) you'll get 2.22 wounds.
Against T3 with a 4++ you'll get 1.67 wounds.
Against T4 with a 3+ you'll get 1.67 wounds, or 1.11 if they're in cover.
Against T4 with a 2+ you'll get 1.11 wounds.
Against T4 2+ in cover you'll get 0.56 wounds.

TL;DR These bows are really not that great.

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1500 4500 2000 2500

"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
"By time I mean that which is indicated by some changing motion." City of God, Book XII Ch 16 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





So I played two crusade games on Saturday. The first was against a newbie, so it was not worth much for learning the codex (Necrons and I crushed him as he was new). The second match up was against Eldar. My list was Exalted on Disc, Terminator Sorcerer, 10 man Rubric Squad with bolters/reaper, 5 man Rubric Squad with Flamers, Maulerfiend, 5 man Terminator Squad with missiles and reaper, and 10 cultists as I had 2 power left (I actually put them in reserve, brought them into my opponent's backfield where they just sat and did actions all game to get me Agendas). He had a Farseer, Spiritseer, two 6 man Dire avenger squads, a waveserpent, 5 man wraithguard with swords, 5 man reaper guys, and a psyker warithlord. Basically what I did was play the objectives (which is very thousand sons) and due to my ability to teleport I was able to get three out of five objectives turn 1. I really just sat back and racked up points as my terminators marched up the middle and destroyed stuff and my disk sorcerer MW crushed his wraithguard/wraithlord. I played really risky at the end of the game moving off objectives trying to kill his characters since they are worth arcane points in the crusade, so he actually scored quit a bit the last turn and brought it to 5 points, but I still prevailed. While it is hard to get gleam to much from a crusade game here are my thoughts:

1. As has been discussed here, playing the objectives is huge. This is probably 9th advice in general, but I think the ability to spread around is important.

2. Scarab Terminators are pretty good even at only 5 man squads. Anything short of dedicated anti-tank is going to have problems taking them down. They basically absorbed shooting from most of his army several turns, and he only was able to kill them because I bum rushed his characters due to Crusade agendas. I have not tried a big squad yet, but I think even if I did I am still bringing a 5 man as well. They are really good with either duplicity, orb, deepstrike or whatever to get them behind enemy lines. Then they are more than a match for almost everything that you encounter in the backfield. Also at only 5, it is only 1 CP to -1 damage them, which is really good.

3. 10 man squad of Rubrics with bolters are also good. Again these guys are tough to take down with small arms. It was only when I was out of command points and he used the "heavy bolter" profile of his reapers when he really did damage to these guys. he only killed 4 of them with that volley and they were cursed with -1 to their save from one of his psyker powers. Using empric guidance to give them 30" range allows them to fight from the backfield pretty easily.

4. 5 man flamer Rubrics were a bit underwelming. I did not roll well for number of shots and to wound so that could possible be it. However, just the treat of them on the flank lead my opponent to be more cautious with some of his units keeping him pinned up in his deployment zone, so I guess they weren't a complete bust.

5. Duplicity is good, but can be unreliable. To start I love duplicity. I love the maneuverability of it. In the game I played it allowed me to swarm the objectives early, and then late in the game move my large rubric squad from the backfield to go after his units to try to finish him off (they did some good work, but I rolled really really bad. I think it was like 13 hits, then I only wounded 3 times against T3!). However, the casting value of 8 makes it a tad more unreliable. There are going to be times you will fail that spell. You can cabal it to auto pass etc, but late in the game that might not be an option. I am stuck with it for the duration of the crusade so I will get plenty of experience with it. However, I think there is definitely an argument to take a different cult and use the orb or deepstrike etc. to improve mobility.

6. Even with all of our casting shenanigans, there will be times that you won't get your powers off. He had four denies, but two from the farseer had re-rolls. He did deny me a couple of times, including one of my mortal wound spells to finish off the Wraithguard. It is another reason why I don't think we can just rely on MW for AT and we need to bring some kind of AT. I also rolled poorly one round and failed to get a few powers off. I think we will need to account for at least one bad psyker phase a game, hopefully it will not be turn one.

7. The deny strat is awesome. That strat that allows 3d6 deny is money for shutting down whatever enemy spell is the linchpin of the opponent. In this case it was the move again spell Eldar have. His strategy in the games he was playing was to double move the wraithguard right up into his opponents face. I knew this coming in and held that strat for his double move spell and denied it even though he rolled like a 10 or something. This kept him pinned in his deployment zone.

8. The cabal system does not scale well. The cabal system was clearly meant for 2000 point games. At only 50 power I think I generate like 9 cabal points. You really need 12+ for it to make a big difference. As this is our army wide rule, it is going to disadvantage us in smaller games. I wish there was something like as long as you have more than one sorcerer left, you generate at least 3 extra cabal points or something. Oh well.
   
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Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
 whembly wrote:
One thing I do have my eye on and seeing if I can make it work, is a full unit of Tzaangor Enlighted with bows.... 6x strength 5, ap -1, 1 dmg shots that ignores Look Out Sir! and always hits on 2+ at 30" range. Seems ripe for some salty plinking.


The math on this....
Against T3 with a 5++ (some Guard and Xenos?) you'll get 2.22 wounds.
Against T3 with a 4++ you'll get 1.67 wounds.
Against T4 with a 3+ you'll get 1.67 wounds, or 1.11 if they're in cover.
Against T4 with a 2+ you'll get 1.11 wounds.
Against T4 2+ in cover you'll get 0.56 wounds.

TL;DR These bows are really not that great.

Oh I'm not looking at it as this super awesome sniper unit.

It's a distraction carnifex that can plink way at a character or target a unit that has some variety of -1 to hit powered up that this unit ignores. It's also a fast 12-wound platform for objective grabbing or failing that, a chaff unit to slow down the enemy at bit. My idea is something like playing against DG's Foul Blightspawn with the Vat relic.... that dude only has 4 wounds and if the DG player wanting to protect him and tries to engage the Enlighten rather than the rest of my army... that's a win.

It's either this unit or a 5-man Spawn unit which both have different roles and has a place in TS lists imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/15 03:34:06


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4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

At W4 T5 3+, against S5 AP-1 D1 BS2+ guns...

Each shot does .208 damage. So it would take 19.2 shots to kill him out of cover.
Drop that to .138 with cover, for 28.8 shots to kill.

Plus, given a CP to reroll a failed save... I'm not sure it'd be effective, if you cannot find other ways to wound him.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Played a game today. Tsons vs Tsons!!!

We were both trying out the new Tsons and tweaking our lists. But it was a great game! We both learnt lots, especially about Tsons vs Tsons matchups.

Mission was surround and destroy, with 6 objectives.

I took Retrieve Octurus Data, Mutate Landscape, and Stranglehold.

My army:

Cult of Change Batallion:

DP without wing, aetherstride, the capricious crest relic.
Ahriman on Disk

3 Rubric squads of 5
1 Tzaangor squad of 10
1 cultist squad 10
2 Chaos Spawn units of 5 each.
1 Rhino with 2 combi bolters.

Duplicity Patrol
Infernal Master (Helm of the Daemon's Eye)
3 Rubric squads all with doombolt, no upgrades
1 Occult Termie squad of 10 with 2 soulreaper, hellfires, and Rites of Coalecence

1 Tzaangor Shaman (Seeker after shadows)

Turn 1, I went first. Tried to advance while screening out possible teleports in. We both spent 2 CP for risen Rubrecae to forward deploy one Min5 rubric squad each (just to further screen out possible teleport strikes). I had the Tzangor squad and cultist squad in strategic reserve to come down and do ROD from turn 2 onwards. So, I move the forward deployed Rubric squad onto the right midpoint objective. Then I took a deep breath and threw a Rhino with a rubric squad in it, a unit of 5 spawn and Temporal surged the 10 man Occult squad all onto the left midpoint objective.

He was well hidden, but the temporal surged had enabled my 3 termie models out of 10 to see his cultist squad of 30. I made sure the 3 models included 2 soulreaper cannons. Put presage on the Termie squad, used the 1cp strategem to double Soulreaper shots and let loose. After the smoke cleared and he failed morale, I think only 9 cultists out of 30 was left.

Got the Stranglehold, Got mutate landscape and did ROD.

His turn 1, He crystals his 10 man termie squad into shooting range of my termie squad. Repositioned his army towards clearing me from the left midpoint objective. My Rhino ate some of the witchfire, down to 4 wounds. Then everything else went into my poor Occult termies. Interestingly enough, his 3 chaos whirlwind scorpius failed him utterly. he shot 1 barrage into the termie block, killed 2 termies, and then 2 barrages into the same rubric squad which tanked everything while only losing 1 model. His occult shooting was amazing though. Killed a few more Occults, so I was down to just 3 left in that squad. He then charged his flying DP and a 5 man chaos spawn unit into my spawn unit. Spawn on Spawn action !

The DP finished off the last 3 Occults. I had just lost 445 points in one unit. Ouch! The Spawn killed 3 spawn.

My Turn 2:

Moved up further. Tzaangor squad came down to do ROD. Did Shaman did mutate landscape and again spent 8 cabal points to make it undeniable. I was already on 3 objectives for sure, so stranglehold was assured. So, I focused on that contested left midfield objective. Fly up my DP (aetherstride), rubric squad unloaded. Brought up my second squad of 5 Chaos spawn. I had an amazing 2nd turn psychic, to be fair. Really amazing. Just about everything went off, and he failed to deny a single psychic...

I witchfire his DP away (8MW from some spells). And I still had enough left to throw some at his Occult squad. Rolled a supersmite and did 6MW (instant killed 2 termies). Still had enough psychic to Sorcerous Facade a min squad of Rubric near to one of his back objective which had a 5 man rubric defending it. Doombolt plus smite killed 2, I think shooting maybe kiled a third?

So, between some shooting from my remaining rubrics, and the psychic. He also lost a few Occults. Then I charged my 4++ Chaos Spawn unit of 5 into his Occult Squad, the Rhino into it plus his Ahriman, and my DP and a squad of Rubrics into his 5 man chaos spawn unit. When the smoke cleared, he was down to 3 Occult terminators (locked in combat with a Rhino and my Chaos Spawn), his spawn unit was dead, and his Ahriman was also locked in combat with my Rhino.

So I got Stranglehold, mutate and ROD again.

Turn 2, he looked at what was left and conceded. I was kind of surprised. But he explained that he had no melee assets left (His DP and Spawn unit was dead, and he said he couldn't do much with 3 Occult terminators and they would be smited to death by turn 3. And he admitted that the 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds had totally failed him.

The takeaways from this Tsons on Tsons clash. Tsons army doesn't really need vehicles, except for maybe one kind - Rhino/s. This reinforced my earlier match where I shared that I brought 2 hellbrutes which did nothing much, and an even earlier match where my Forgefiend and Vindicator spent 3 turns firing at a raider and failed to kill it. Anyway, we don't need vehicles to kills stuff. His combined shooting, psychic and melee took out my full strength Occult squad in one turn, and my counter punch killed 7 occults as well.

The one vehicle that was very useful, was the lone Rhino I took. It helped to absorb doombolt and smite, it delivered rubrics onto the midfield, it moved 12 inches, and it had a 5++ save on a T7 Chassis. He didn't even want to shoot at it. And after that, it charged into his Occcults and Ahriman, helping to tie them up. I have a new found love for Rhinos now. Even one squad of Rubric in a Rhino is good enough. I don't know if I want to add more. Will stick to one for now.

Multiple rubric squads were very useful. I had 6 squads. It didn't matter they only had inferno bolters. That was enough. It was the obsec, being hard to kill, being able to possible be teleported, being able to cast psychic that made them so darn good. Their shooting and possible melee was just icing on the top.

Not taking To the Last this time was a gamble that paid off. It allowed me to boldly move my Occults onto the midfield. Sure I lost them in one turn, but they ate up just about his entire army's offensive output on that turn. And when you throw a Rhino with rubrics, a 10 man occult squad plus a 5 man Chaos spawn unit onto a point. That is a massive statement of intent. Not many armies can clear off so much from one objective. Not many armies would even try. I might have possibly been too aggressive with my Occults, but if you want your opponent to risk his assets, you have to risk yours as well. He killed my Occult squad and 3 Spawn, but lost 7 Occults in return plus his DP and his Chaos Spawn squad. Fair trade.

ROD was ROD, and mutate Landscape was good too. If you are playing pure Tsons, there is literally no way they can stop you if you take mutate landscape or warp ritual because you just spend 8 cabal points each turn to make the ritual undeniable.

So, it was a great match and we both learnt tons. He will tweak his list further (and undoubtedly drop the Scorpius Whirwinds). I learnt to drop all anti tank from my list as well one match before already. Gonna stick to this list for now and run with it, possibly with just minor tweaks. He advised that I go full batallion of Duplicity instead of spending 2 CP for an additional patrol. Might consider it. I do use the Capricious crest... but the question is whether its worth having to spend 2CP to run an additional patrol just to accomodate that relic.

One last thing. A lot of our relics and warlord traits are great, but actually, they are a luxury. Tsons blow through CP like water. By turn 2, both of us were out of CP ... lol. So, erm yeah, if you can take less, take less. You will find that many of them are just good to have, they won't change the game you are playing that much.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/15 14:56:12


 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Hello I am just starting a Thousand Sons army and my local meta is 1000 pts games. Going to run 2 characters, one scarab squad and fill the rest with 5 man rubric squads. My question is which of the spells are a must take in every army
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sadd wrote:
Hello I am just starting a Thousand Sons army and my local meta is 1000 pts games. Going to run 2 characters, one scarab squad and fill the rest with 5 man rubric squads. My question is which of the spells are a must take in every army


My personal opinion.

The most important defensive spell is Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch that will be cast on your Occults.

The most important utility spell is Temporal Surge.

The most important damage spell is Doom Bolt (and smite, which everyone has anyway).

That's about it unless you want to consider cult spells. Every other spell is just like Tsons relics and warlord traits. (Good to have, but not exactly essential). Anyway, if its a situational spell. you can always pay 1 CP to swop it in if you need it.
   
 
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