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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That makes no sense, that an axe is worse at chopping through armor than a sword. I'd say reverse all those APs and you have it.

An axe IS worse then chopping through armor then a spear or sword. Light/Medium armor like a Brigandine or Leather armor an axe is better...but this is 40k with pretty much super plate armor on everyone/thing. A sword would be easier to maneuver to get at the key open points in the armor. An axe? It would do more damage if it hit but against plate its no better then a sword. Sword is just smaller and can get in the open spots easier...thats it. Hell a Dagger(misercordia) would be more useful then either TECHNICALLY speaking. While Halberds/Spears are pretty much superior to swords in everyway i'd say S&B vs Halberd in open melee both plate wearers that S&B is gonna take it.

It's always good to apply a bit of 40k pseudoscience when trying to justify stats on weapons, especially melee weapons. Makes it easier.

I wouldn't compare them to their real life equivalents, but more take into consideration things like the disruption field emitted by the weapon, and how that energy field is tuned to perform.

EG: Axe vs Spear. A nicely pointed weapon might be well suited to piercing its way through the armor so they tune the energy field to soften the target as much as possible. An axe, which crushes it's way through a target, might be able to achieve the same penetration with an appropriately tuned disruption field, but just like Thunder hammers they tend to have a disruption field tuned such that most of the energy is released as a shockwave on impact at the expense of armor penetration, and it does it's damage that way(hence higher strength). Think gravity hammer from Halo.

The larger the weapon, the bigger the field generator which can fit inside, hence the poor strength and damage of the Misericordia.

Then can you explain the Aquillon Fist?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Then can you explain the Aquillon Fist?

All power weapons technically disrupts matter on a molecular level, I think, so the reality is that their differences would probably be cosmetic only. GW wants them to be different though so gotta do something.

Solarite power gauntlets were made back before the crusade era and should be considered the Real Powerfist. The mass produced ones used by the rest of the imperium are a bit cheaper and not quite as effective thus only ap-3.

The -1 to hit comes from the skill and size of the user more than the equipment.

They are large and ponderous hands, about 5x the size of a normal fist. Unless your a genius, you wouldnt be able to manipulate it as well as your own natural hands. The custodes are, however, in fact quite brilliant and can use them at no penalty.

I was talking more about the ability to penetrate tank armor by casting "FIST"

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was talking more about the ability to penetrate tank armor by casting "FIST"

has access to the suits main power supply and thus has more power behind it than the various power weapons do


alternatively: a Dark Age of techo-wizard did it.

edit: and people punching though tanks is Cool, so it gets a pass under that as well.

Again.
The only change that needs to be made to axes is simply making them flat 3 damage. At that point, they are a thunder hammer, without the -1 to hit, which we already have precendent for based on the power gauntlets, which would offer better ap, whereas the axes deal 3 vs 2 damage.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was talking more about the ability to penetrate tank armor by casting "FIST"

has access to the suits main power supply and thus has more power behind it than the various power weapons do


alternatively: a Dark Age of techo-wizard did it.

edit: and people punching though tanks is Cool, so it gets a pass under that as well.

I wish I could exhalt this post more. Thank you!

But honestly, Axes need to be different than spears, swords, and lances. It's kind of ridiculous. Make axes a flat 4. Make fists 3, spears 2, and swords d3.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was talking more about the ability to penetrate tank armor by casting "FIST"

has access to the suits main power supply and thus has more power behind it than the various power weapons do


alternatively: a Dark Age of techo-wizard did it.

edit: and people punching though tanks is Cool, so it gets a pass under that as well.

I wish I could exhalt this post more. Thank you!

But honestly, Axes need to be different than spears, swords, and lances. It's kind of ridiculous. Make axes a flat 4. Make fists 3, spears 2, and swords d3.

As much as I love to wreck face with allarus termis, flat 4 damage on the axes is a bit excessive. I really think that would push them over the top.

The swords are directly not competing with the spear, axe because you take them with the shield. I think the axes should be our thunderhammer equivalent.

What do you guys think about venatari? I think they are at least as good as bikes with salvo launchers .
the pistol and buckler version is really tempting
pros:
40 points less. 275 points gives you 5 Venatari and 285 points gives you 3 bikes
they are infantry
you can double shoot them with the strat
pistols can be used in melee
they are tougher than bikes point for point against most weapons
much better shooting against primaris and gravis


con:
2" less movement and no auto 6" advance
not good in melee compared to bikes.
less effective against t8 vehilcles.

 nordsturmking wrote:
The swords are directly not competing with the spear, axe because you take them with the shield. I think the axes should be our thunderhammer equivalent.

What do you guys think about venatari? I think they are at least as good as bikes with salvo launchers .
the pistol and buckler version is really tempting
pros:
40 points less. 275 points gives you 5 Venatari and 285 points gives you 3 bikes
they are infantry
you can double shoot them with the strat
pistols can be used in melee
they are tougher than bikes point for point against most weapons
much better shooting against primaris and gravis


con:
2" less movement and no auto 6" advance
not good in melee compared to bikes.
less effective against t8 vehilcles.

I really, really like the venarari. I played a squad of 3 with pistols multiple times and they did amazing work against space marines with the superior firing patterns stratagem. And that was before the FW update, now they are even better. Bikes have long been considered our best overall unit and to some extent this still might be true, but I think the venatari offer a very tempting alternate fast attack slot.
I may be alone in this, but I personally also really like the updated venatari lances. They offer some pretty decent melee potential with 4 attacks each at S6 AP-3 and flat 2 dmg.....maybe, just maybe a mixed squad of venatari could be worth for the flexibility of having both really good shooting and melee.

I feel the venatari in general are one of the biggest winners of the FW update.

My only problem with them over bikes is they don't have the stratagem support that bikes do. Stooping dive is one of the best strats in the game, and their special relic is amazing on a SC biker with Blood Games. Also, I am betting Vens don't get core, so there go the re-rolls. Hurricane Bolters are just too good, and the S6 charging with re-rolls to wound is amazing. I will really have to see some amazing bat reps to swing me over from bikes.

@Fezzik, why are you like this???? Venatari have Core (from the leaks/youtube). And there's nothing that says you can't support them with a bike captain, those buff all Custodes not just bikes.

Personally I think a decent number of people would choose the 1CP shoot twice over the 3 CP stooping dive. But I do think there's room for both. I'm personally looking at the most CP-efficient way to get both Agamatus bikes and Venatari in my list...Been liking 2 bike squads for the objectives rush but VenBoys are looking really tasty now.

My crazy idea is the adrathic destructor on aquilons...most of the time the bolter is better BUT if you're willing to spend 85 ppm it becomes an intriguing way to deal with Gravis marines on the drop...10 shots from a 5-man unit kills 4-6 eradicators. I think the Achilles is probably the better "dmg 3 gunslinger", but it was a random thought I had.

 greyknight12 wrote:


My crazy idea is the adrathic destructor on aquilons...most of the time the bolter is better BUT if you're willing to spend 85 ppm it becomes an intriguing way to deal with Gravis marines on the drop...10 shots from a 5-man unit kills 4-6 eradicators. I think the Achilles is probably the better "dmg 3 gunslinger", but it was a random thought I had.

I don't think its crazy at all. If your Venatari are going to be the ones using SFP anyway then the Adrathic is more effective against nearly everything that isn't chaff infantry, and at assault 18 inches which is a consideration if you start them on the board and advance. With all the access to ignore -1 (or equivalent) which so many armies seem to be getting you avoid that nasty pitfall too.

I'm painting and magnetizing mine up now. Don't own Venatari but I often find myself giving SFP to the Allarus unit anyway, to combo with the character sniping strat. The cost of 50-60 points pays for itself in extra dead Gravis marines quickly enough.

How does it work with Unstoppable Destroyer in 9th -

Can I pile in to and attack a unit I didn't declare a charge on?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Considering this list for a 1500 tourn:

solar watch
2x dawneagle with the 3++, superior creation + unstoppable on one, sally forth on the other

3x guards with 2 spears and 1 shield each

1 galatus dread
5 allarus bois
5 prosecutors

1 culexus

thoughts?

That list looks really tight, you've got all your bases covered and a lot of big scaries to intimidate/bully. Why sisters though? I'd rather take two squads of gun sisters than 1 squad and an assassin. Better cost for the same thing. Also, a Culexus almost never earns it's points back, it really sucks in combat unless it's against psyker, and it's gun is pretty meh. Just grab a second sisters squad and make one slightly large to offset the cost.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That list looks really tight, you've got all your bases covered and a lot of big scaries to intimidate/bully. Why sisters though? I'd rather take two squads of gun sisters than 1 squad and an assassin. Better cost for the same thing. Also, a Culexus almost never earns it's points back, it really sucks in combat unless it's against psyker, and it's gun is pretty meh. Just grab a second sisters squad and make one slightly large to offset the cost.

Culexus has AoE fight last strat. Something to consider

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
That list looks really tight, you've got all your bases covered and a lot of big scaries to intimidate/bully. Why sisters though? I'd rather take two squads of gun sisters than 1 squad and an assassin. Better cost for the same thing. Also, a Culexus almost never earns it's points back, it really sucks in combat unless it's against psyker, and it's gun is pretty meh. Just grab a second sisters squad and make one slightly large to offset the cost.

Culexus has AoE fight last strat. Something to consider

yes, he is there for two reasons, and thats at least half of it

but yes i am considering dropping it... for more context here are the factions ill be facing, with X marking likely to bring psykers:

Salamanders
Craftworld Eldar X
Chaos Knights
Necrons
Thousand Sons X
Ultramarines X (know tigurius coming)
Orks X
Drukhari
Death Guard X

Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.

Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.

Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.

Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?

 dicerage wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.

Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.

Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?

Not really. DG buffs have a range of about 18"-24" (so the psyker can be 18" BEHIND the unit it is buffing, meaning up to 36" away from your penalty aura) and their buffs don't usually require line of sight. They're more than capable of chilling behind LoS blocking terrain and just tossing buffs on mid-field units from their own deployment zone.

Buff based psyker armies, like DG and Craftworld, are virtually impossible to stop in the psychic phase unless you're deep striking Deny the Witch up there (like a terminator Inquisitor or Librarian). Most of our anti-psyker stuff is balanced around stopping Smite spam and other MW spam, which is really just GK and Thousand Sons (and Thousand Sons get an extra +6" range so for the first round or 2 they can dance outside of deny/strat/aura range).

Audustum wrote:

 dicerage wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.

Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.

Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?

Not really. DG buffs have a range of about 18"-24" (so the psyker can be 18" BEHIND the unit it is buffing, meaning up to 36" away from your penalty aura) and their buffs don't usually require line of sight. They're more than capable of chilling behind LoS blocking terrain and just tossing buffs on mid-field units from their own deployment zone.

Buff based psyker armies, like DG and Craftworld, are virtually impossible to stop in the psychic phase unless you're deep striking Deny the Witch up there (like a terminator Inquisitor or Librarian). Most of our anti-psyker stuff is balanced around stopping Smite spam and other MW spam, which is really just GK and Thousand Sons (and Thousand Sons get an extra +6" range so for the first round or 2 they can dance outside of deny/strat/aura range).

Very strong arguments, but respectfully I'm not entirely convinced yet:

1) I'm deep striking the Culexus up there, and aim to be forward from the get-go, with 2 dawneagles to clear. Turn one I can't do anything - that's the scenario in most cases I feel Culexus or not - but turn 2 I've got both the custodes deny in whatever range I want, and a deep striking Culexus. Your thoughts?
2) If I drop the Culexus, what should I replace it with? More sisters, as Fezzik suggests?

Just remember the 4+ deny stratagem only works for powers that target a Custodes unit.

I might also add the Culexus is pretty easy to nuke down with massed shooting. Or a single lucky blast from a heavy flamer. Or any flamer for that matter. Hes only a T3 character with 5 wounds. Even with the Ws/BS 6+ debuff to attacking enemies, it's not that hard to counter. Every time I've taken one they've died rather quickly. Once to a very lucky tank shot, once to massed auto-cannon fire, and once to a Bale Flamer. He's not immune. If you are DSing him in on turn 2, your opponent will know it's coming. It's also very hard for him to earn points back. Also, he doesn't stop all Psyker casting, he just makes it harder.

To give you some perspective, Magnus fighting his "weight" in Culexi (about 4.88) of them, having brought Warptime, Weaver of Fates, and Prescience, even with the Culexi debuffing him and shutting down his Smite, will kill the Culexi faster than they can kill him

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I might also add the Culexus is pretty easy to nuke down with massed shooting. Or a single lucky blast from a heavy flamer. Or any flamer for that matter. Hes only a T3 character with 5 wounds. Even with the Ws/BS 6+ debuff to attacking enemies, it's not that hard to counter. Every time I've taken one they've died rather quickly. Once to a very lucky tank shot, once to massed auto-cannon fire, and once to a Bale Flamer. He's not immune. If you are DSing him in on turn 2, your opponent will know it's coming. It's also very hard for him to earn points back. Also, he doesn't stop all Psyker casting, he just makes it harder.

To give you some perspective, Magnus fighting his "weight" in Culexi (about 4.88) of them, having brought Warptime, Weaver of Fates, and Prescience, even with the Culexi debuffing him and shutting down his Smite, will kill the Culexi faster than they can kill him

Aren't they T4?

And honestly, saying "Magnus can kill them!" ain't exactly a big knock against them. They're mezzers, not killers.

 dicerage wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 dicerage wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just for my own skill boost, what psykerness do DG bring that I need to be worried about as a Custodes? They don't bring the Smite Spam that other legions do, but if they Bring Morty I guess that's pretty ugly.

Most of Morty's MW aren't psychic so it won't help there. Sadly, DG's psychic is almost exclusively buffs and heals which they will safely cast from FAR outside your deny ranges, stratagem ranges and penalty auras.

Will they in the mid-late game, given that DG is a mid-range army and me as stodes will be pushing hard to close the distance on all fronts?

Not really. DG buffs have a range of about 18"-24" (so the psyker can be 18" BEHIND the unit it is buffing, meaning up to 36" away from your penalty aura) and their buffs don't usually require line of sight. They're more than capable of chilling behind LoS blocking terrain and just tossing buffs on mid-field units from their own deployment zone.

Buff based psyker armies, like DG and Craftworld, are virtually impossible to stop in the psychic phase unless you're deep striking Deny the Witch up there (like a terminator Inquisitor or Librarian). Most of our anti-psyker stuff is balanced around stopping Smite spam and other MW spam, which is really just GK and Thousand Sons (and Thousand Sons get an extra +6" range so for the first round or 2 they can dance outside of deny/strat/aura range).

Very strong arguments, but respectfully I'm not entirely convinced yet:

1) I'm deep striking the Culexus up there, and aim to be forward from the get-go, with 2 dawneagles to clear. Turn one I can't do anything - that's the scenario in most cases I feel Culexus or not - but turn 2 I've got both the custodes deny in whatever range I want, and a deep striking Culexus. Your thoughts?
2) If I drop the Culexus, what should I replace it with? More sisters, as Fezzik suggests?

Keep in mind, I'm basing this on the only really competitive DG build I've heard of and seen (TJ Lanigan's Nurgling spam):

The Death Guard player will likely have 3 Plagueburst Crawlers. The flamers on those will just destroy the Culexus almost immediately. If not them, he'll have between 1 and 3 Blightspawns (also flamers, but they're flat 3 damage). Both sets of auto-hitting flamers will wound a T4 Culexus on 3's and one of them can get a solid range boost from a stratagem. That Culexus is gonna be barbequed unless he's DS'ing in with bodyguards.

The amount of Nurglings (usually 46+) should push you out pretty far, but yeah, DS'ing in Custodes will absolutely help you get their denials in range faster. Consider the +1 denial warlord trait.

I would not drop the Culexus. He's good and you'll get good use out of him in many matches. Just don't expect him to be stopping lots of psychic powers against Death Guard. One thing it CAN help with Death Guard is the Blightspawn's own fight last aura (though remember, this only effects your units when they CHARGE). It can make his Plague Marine/Terminator plob very hesitant to move into you (and that's a GOOD thing because the flails WILL chew through even Custodes).

Looks like the Battlescribe update for the Imperial Armor Compendium is out, it has all of our stuff as far as I can see.

Played a game against Salamanders yesterday, ended up losing though if I had played smarter (aka remember to score Deploy Scramblers for one) I would have had it. Space Marines are broken and an example of hideous game design lol. It was the last ride of my Orion+unleashed lions in their deployment zone list.
I had Agamatus bikes, Venetari, and Sagittarum in the list, some takeaways:

Sag Guard are really, really good. They have both anti-marine AND anti-gravis profiles on their guns, and 36" is a long distance on the new board size, and that's before you factor in their 6" move and advance. Great backfield objective holders since they can contribute to the fight. Obviously a little less durable that their shielded friends but being able to participate in the game is a worthwhile tradeoff for my list.

I think the 5-man Venetari is going to replace a bike squad in my list. These guys are made to kill marines. I used the pistols and was happy.

Agamatus Bikes have alot of potential, but I think I'm still trying to figure out the best way to use them. One of my problems has been I tend to push my bikes too far forward, which means they get tied up in combat...which is fine, except that then they cant shoot and no one charges them with stuff that either can't survive or can't kill them. I actually think that simply going vertical (ie on top of buildings, etc) to shoot might be the place for them, swooping down to charge targets of opportunity. I used the pulse lasers, I'm not sure if the other weapons are worth it.

Overall, I'm looking to pivot a bigger chunk of my list to kill Gravis marines. We actually have a decent number of options with all the flat-3 weapons on the FW side, and since we have flat 2 or D3 damage in CC on almost everything we don't give up alot of efficiency against 2 wound models; at least not any you cant cover with a squad of Venetari or a pair of accelerator autocannons. I'llbe exploring that over the next couple weeks, have 2 RTTs next weekend.

Looks like I was right about the space marine nerfs. Their codex hit them hard.

Daemons, quins, Custodes and sisters are all S-tier factions right now.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-november-2020-40k-meta-review/